Saints vs Glaws

[Puja]

SAINTS
15 Ahsee Tuala
14 Ben Foden
13 Rob Horne
12 Luther Burrell
11 Ken Pisi
10 Harry Mallinder
9 Nic Groom

1 Campese Ma’afu
2 Dylan Hartley (capt)
3 Jamal Ford-Robinson
4 Api Ratuniyarawa
5 Courtney Lawes
6 Tom Wood
7 Jamie Gibson
8 Teimana Harrison

Replacements:
16 Mikey Haywood
17 Francois van Wyk
18 Kieran Brookes
19 Michael Paterson
20 Ben Nutley
21 Cobus Reinach
22 James Grayson
23 Tom Stephenson


Gloucester Rugby:

15. Tom Marshall; 14. Jason Woodward, 13. Henry Trinder, 12. Andy Symons, 11. David Halaifonua; 10. Owen Williams, 9. Willi Heinz (capt); 1. Josh Hohneck, 2. James Hanson, 3. John Afoa; 4. Ed Slater, 5. Mariano Galarza; 6. Ruan Ackermann, 7. Jake Polledri, 8. Ben Morgan

Replacements:

16. Motu Matu'u, 17. Cameron Orr, 18. Fraser Balmain, 19. Tom Savage, 20. Lewis Ludlow, 21. Ben Vellacott, 22. Billy Twelvetrees, 23. Charlie Sharples

[Puja]

Gloucester have picked a back 5 of a pack that love carrying the ball in space and Northampton have picked a fly-half scared of tackling. Anyone care to make any predictions about the shape of this game?

Anyone know what's going on with Thorley? He's not on the "Unavailable for selection" list, but he's not been involved the last few weeks despite being in prime form.

Puja

[Banquo]

Gloucester have picked a back 5 of a pack that love carrying the ball in space and Northampton have picked a fly-half scared of tackling. Anyone care to make any predictions about the shape of this game?

Anyone know what's going on with Thorley? He's not on the "Unavailable for selection" list, but he's not been involved the last few weeks despite being in prime form.

Puja

Saints will need to buck their ideas up sharpish.

Good to see that Trinder is starting ahead of Billy

[fivepointer]

Looks like it was either Mallinder or young Grayson for FH, neither are defensive rocks.

I thought Saints might kick into life for their last home game but that didnt happen, and they were even worse last week.

They have to turn the corner sometime.....dont they?

[Timbo]

Is Paul Hill injured? Seems like he could do with a move.

[fivepointer]

I think he's fit. Its very disappointing the way his career has gone into sharp decline over the last couple of seasons. Hard to believe he has won England caps and looked such a prospect not that long ago. a move might do him some good.

[Puja]

I am hoping that the rumours linking him to Leicester have some validity. Seems like a season of being Cole's apprentice and learning enough to oust him, as Cole did to Castro and Castro to White, would be just the thing he needed.

We are so short of decent tightheads in this country. On the loose, we've got Mako, Marler, Genge, Obano, Mullan, then the untesteds of VRR, Waller, Waller, Hepburn, Harrison. On the tight, we've got Cole, Sinckler (who's a liability), large gap, Williams, Collier, larger gap, um... Ford-Robinson, I guess? A reasonable case could be made that our 10th choice loosehead is of a similar quality to our 3rd choice tighthead.

Puja

[Timbo]

Hepburn is a fantastic player. Personally would have had him over Obano training with England.

On the tighthead side I think Harry Williams is a good player and not far off the top 2. I reckon a fully fit Schonert might be next in line.

[Adam_P]

I also rate Harry Williams, I don't see that much of a gap between him and Sinckler, especially when you consider their temperament, and would take both over Cole for England heading to the WC.

Myler and Francis are both injured so Mallinder or Grayson are forced selections at 10. Whilst I don't see Harry as a 10, I'm fairly sure all our wins this season have been with him at 10 so I'm not as outraged as some at that selection. I'm bemused by Hill's total omission from the 23, absolute madness. We need to give him as much time as possible in the hope that he stays, and sack off Brookes at the end of the season who has looked ineffective and lazy for too long now.

We have a winger on the wing this week which makes a nice change.

As with every week - STOP PLAYING WOOD AND GIBSON TOGETHER AT 6 AND 7!

I'm not very hopeful of a win, but a bit of effort from the whole 23, not just 2 or 3 players, would be a big step in the right direction. Gaffney has pointed out how lazy we are off the ball with getting up and back in the line after contact, and it is things like this that makes such a difference. There were players walking back to the line last week within the first 20 minutes which is awful.

[Gloskarlos]

Ackerman's plan is surely to run saints ragged, that's an interesting back line there, I'm surprised Thorley is not in the squad, I would certainly have him there in lieu of DH.

[Digby]

I On the tight, we've got Cole, Sinckler (who's a liability), large gap, Williams, Collier, larger gap, um... Ford-Robinson, I guess? A reasonable case could be made that our 10th choice loosehead is of a similar quality to our 3rd choice tighthead.

Puja

If only to stop Raggs biting on that bait I'll mention JCW, who actually I'm not sold on myself. I was once upon a time more sold on Thomas and Brooks, and as per the other day I'd have Hill in my EPS

[padprop]

First Choice Props when everyone is fit:

Exeter: Hepburn and Williams
Wasps: Mullan and JCW
Saracens: Mako and Koch
Gloucester: VRR and Afoa? Not sure there
Bath: Catt and Thomas
Worcs: Waller and Schonert
Irish: Reid and Du Plessis
Sale: Harrison and John?
Quins: Marler and Sinckler
Newcastle: Vickers and Wilson
Leicester: Genge and Cole
Northampton: Waller and Brookes

English looseheads who are first choice: 11 (And even Smallbone has played alot at loosehead for irish this season)
English tightheads who are first choice: 7

If Collier, Hill, Ford-Robinson, could move around to Sarries, Gloucester or Irish (Or Brizzle) we'd have alot more high quality tightheads exposed week in week out.

[Mellsblue]

Do they immediately become high/test quality because they’re first choice? Also, a Prem club should be rotating players especially in an attritional position such as prop. Therefore, unless they were third choice I doubt they’d see much more game time. If they are third choice I doubt they’d improve the Eng team.

[Adam_P]

Do they immediately become high/test quality because they’re first choice? Also, a Prem club should be rotating players especially in an attritional position such as prop. Therefore, unless they were third choice I doubt they’d see much more game time. If they are third choice I doubt they’d improve the Eng team.

Well in the case of Hill he does appear to be third choice, but not deservedly so. That's the problem.

[Mellsblue]

Do they immediately become high/test quality because they’re first choice? Also, a Prem club should be rotating players especially in an attritional position such as prop. Therefore, unless they were third choice I doubt they’d see much more game time. If they are third choice I doubt they’d improve the Eng team.

Well in the case of Hill he does appear to be third choice, but not deservedly so. That's the problem.

Would he improve the England team. I’d say no.

[Beasties]

Whilst I do agree with your general point there Puja I do think you're being a bit harsh on our crop of THs. While we maybe don't have a single world class TH currently we do have a comparatively large crop of decent prospects. I can't ever remember being so hopeful that we'll have more than one top quality international TH in the near future. Jeez, it's not that long ago that we had PDJ as an Eng squad regular.

We've been scraping around for someone/anyone at all to play TH for Eng since before Vickery retired. Cole is the only player I've been remotely happy with since then and he wasn't all that as much as some reckoned. Near world class yes but not actually world class at his best. Davey Wilson was solid but after that there's pretty much nowt. I'd happily play any of Cole, Williams, Schonert, Sinckler or Hill in an Eng team without being worried about any of them (strong underpants needed for Sinckler obvs).

But there's no argument that our LH stock is stronger still, we really are uber lucky there.

[padprop]

With both Marler being converted from 3 to 1 and Genge from number 8 to 1, its easy to see why we are stronger there. Loosehead is a much easier position to play than tighthead, and is the easiest position to convert someone to in the front 3. I really struggle to think of any success story of players being converted to tighthead from the back 5 successfully.

[Scrumhead]

The same goes for Andrew Sheridan.

The most notable player I can think of that ‘converted’ to tighthead is Sinckler. Not a back five player, but he was originally a centre before being trained-up as a prop in the Quins academy.

[Puja]

Whilst I do agree with your general point there Puja I do think you're being a bit harsh on our crop of THs. While we maybe don't have a single world class TH currently we do have a comparatively large crop of decent prospects. I can't ever remember being so hopeful that we'll have more than one top quality international TH in the near future. Jeez, it's not that long ago that we had PDJ as an Eng squad regular.

We've been scraping around for someone/anyone at all to play TH for Eng since before Vickery retired. Cole is the only player I've been remotely happy with since then and he wasn't all that as much as some reckoned. Near world class yes but not actually world class at his best. Davey Wilson was solid but after that there's pretty much nowt. I'd happily play any of Cole, Williams, Schonert, Sinckler or Hill in an Eng team without being worried about any of them (strong underpants needed for Sinckler obvs).

But there's no argument that our LH stock is stronger still, we really are uber lucky there.

I had actually forgotten about Thomas and Schonert, who are both still in the possibles camp, but at least move Will Collier two steps further away from earning another cap. So I'm less pessimistic than I was.

However, of your list of 3's that you could play for England without being worried, Schonert's completely untested even at top club competition, let alone international, Hill isn't playing for Saints at all, and I really don't get the love for Williams beyond blind hope. You referenced PDJ - that's basically how I see Williams (at PDJ's peak, not now of course). Sinckler has all the talent and would make me very happy if it wasn't for the fact that his brain appears to be missing. I really don't know he can be trusted. So basically, I have Cole that I would play without worrying about and even then that's not a selection that I'm thrilled about.

However, Thomas has now had a run of games for Bath, without injury. Without wishing to invoke the Manu effect, I'd be keen to see him back for England.

Puja

[Puja]

With both Marler being converted from 3 to 1 and Genge from number 8 to 1, its easy to see why we are stronger there. Loosehead is a much easier position to play than tighthead, and is the easiest position to convert someone to in the front 3. I really struggle to think of any success story of players being converted to tighthead from the back 5 successfully.

That's a really good point! Hadn't thought of that and certainly explains the plethora of ball-playing 1s.

Puja

[fivepointer]

I'd have absolutely no qualms about starting Schonert in any of the upcoming 6N games. He is the best scrummaging TH in the Premiership and easily good enough to play for England.
I'd be happy to start Williams and Sinckler, and i wouldnt be unduly fussed to see Collier in the starting XV. Thomas needs a bit more game time and Hill needs to rediscover his form. JCW might do at a pinch.
Its pleasing that Scott Wilson is getting some game time now. He looked a tremendous prospect before his injury and is still young enough to come into the reckoning.
TH is the most challenging position, technically and physically, so its great that we now have some very good options with the prospect of more down the line. Watch out for Marcus Street at Exeter, who played for the U20s as an U18.

[twitchy]

Every time I watch schonert live he has a really awful injury in the first 15 mins of the game and gets stretchered off. I think I should stop watching for his sake.

[twitchy]

Well done saints, good start.

[Beasties]

Puja, I get that you don't rate Williams, fair enough. I rate him as being a very good prop who is maybe at his ceiling but it's a decent ceiling. But to bracket him with PDJ is bonkers. PDJ was in the squad because there was basically no one else. At all.

[twitchy]

I spoke to soon.