Mellsblue wrote:That’s quite some volte-face. First we’re slagging off May for not letting Corbyn dictate terms of discussion and despite never having actually set out what his aims would be and now we’re saying that he shouldn’t ‘help’ at all despite calling for cross party talks for months and months.
The cult still runs strong.
Like Zhivago said, take "no deal" off the table. Aside from that, it's blatantly obvious that May is now desperate and grasping, and considering May hadn't bothered reaching out to the opposition to begin with, shutting them out of the process, I still don't see why Corbyn should be obliged to go now that the due date is fast approaching like a runaway train.
Quite beyond the fact no deal is the default legal standing, as voted in by parliament, and is therefore not in May’s gift to take it off the table, why should she and why has nobody else demanded that she should?
Cable, Robertson, Cooper and Benn are all there. All are avowed Remainers but they’re all at the talks. How is everyone else wrong but Corbyn right?
cashead wrote:
Like Zhivago said, take "no deal" off the table. Aside from that, it's blatantly obvious that May is now desperate and grasping, and considering May hadn't bothered reaching out to the opposition to begin with, shutting them out of the process, I still don't see why Corbyn should be obliged to go now that the due date is fast approaching like a runaway train.
Quite beyond the fact no deal is the default legal standing, as voted in by parliament, and is therefore not in May’s gift to take it off the table, why should she and why has nobody else demanded that she should?
Cable, Robertson, Cooper and Benn are all there. All are avowed Remainers but they’re all at the talks. How is everyone else wrong but Corbyn right?
Tell me where I said the ones that went were in the wrong. Go on, I'll wait.
cashead wrote:
Tell me where I said the ones that went were in the wrong. Go on, I'll wait.
Where did I say you said it? I won’t wait.
Then why ask this: "How is everyone else wrong but Corbyn right?"
Because everybody other than Corbyn has agreed to sit round a table without any silly demands, even those who actually want to stop Brexit. So Corbyn is in a group of one making demands yet it’s May’s fault he’s not there? Where is the logic in that. Even arch-Europhiles have agreed to the talks, for goodness sakes. Either all of them are wrong for not making pre-talk demands or Corbyn is wrong due to making a pre-talk demand.
At best May had called his bluff and he can’t back down. At worst, he’s actively avoiding declaring his Brexit position ......... yet again.
Mellsblue wrote:
Where did I say you said it? I won’t wait.
Then why ask this: "How is everyone else wrong but Corbyn right?"
Because everybody other than Corbyn has agreed to sit round a table without any silly demands, even those who actually want to stop Brexit. So Corbyn is in a group of one making demands yet it’s May’s fault he’s not there? Where is the logic in that. Even arch-Europhiles have agreed to the talks, for goodness sakes. Either all of them are wrong for not making pre-talk demands or Corbyn is wrong due to making a pre-talk demand.
At best May had called his bluff and he can’t back down. At worst, he’s actively avoiding declaring his Brexit position ......... yet again.
New Labour are only there to make Corbyn look bad, they have no altruistic reasons.
cashead wrote:
Then why ask this: "How is everyone else wrong but Corbyn right?"
Because everybody other than Corbyn has agreed to sit round a table without any silly demands, even those who actually want to stop Brexit. So Corbyn is in a group of one making demands yet it’s May’s fault he’s not there? Where is the logic in that. Even arch-Europhiles have agreed to the talks, for goodness sakes. Either all of them are wrong for not making pre-talk demands or Corbyn is wrong due to making a pre-talk demand.
At best May had called his bluff and he can’t back down. At worst, he’s actively avoiding declaring his Brexit position ......... yet again.
New Labour are only there to make Corbyn look bad, they have no altruistic reasons.
But Corbyn could be there, if he’d just accepted the offer in the first place. Are the SNP and Lib Dems there just to make Corbyn look bad, too?
Mellsblue wrote:
Because everybody other than Corbyn has agreed to sit round a table without any silly demands, even those who actually want to stop Brexit. So Corbyn is in a group of one making demands yet it’s May’s fault he’s not there? Where is the logic in that. Even arch-Europhiles have agreed to the talks, for goodness sakes. Either all of them are wrong for not making pre-talk demands or Corbyn is wrong due to making a pre-talk demand.
At best May had called his bluff and he can’t back down. At worst, he’s actively avoiding declaring his Brexit position ......... yet again.
New Labour are only there to make Corbyn look bad, they have no altruistic reasons.
But Corbyn could be there, if he’d just accepted the offer in the first place. Are the SNP and Lib Dems there just to make Corbyn look bad, too?
What's the point? She won't compromise. We're heading to no deal and they're gonna try to blame Labour, cos that's what they do.
Zhivago wrote:
New Labour are only there to make Corbyn look bad, they have no altruistic reasons.
But Corbyn could be there, if he’d just accepted the offer in the first place. Are the SNP and Lib Dems there just to make Corbyn look bad, too?
What's the point? She won't compromise. We're heading to no deal and they're gonna try to blame Labour, cos that's what they do.
I agree, I doubt she’ll compromise much but, again said so earlier, what’s that got to do with Corbyn putting up a redline when nobody else has. If you think she isn’t going to compromise enough join the talks and then declare that she’s not compromising enough and walk away. Don’t just set an unrealistic redline and sit outside the talks.
Digby wrote:Other leaders have in talks asked for no deal to be taken off the table
On the two main leaders and given where we are they're both using red lines even before talks commence, so both are culpable
‘in talks’ being the key phrase and, again, yes they’re both culpable. Don’t mistake my admonishment of Corbyn as a defence of May on anything other than this single point.
Zhivago wrote:
New Labour are only there to make Corbyn look bad, they have no altruistic reasons.
But Corbyn could be there, if he’d just accepted the offer in the first place. Are the SNP and Lib Dems there just to make Corbyn look bad, too?
What's the point? She won't compromise. We're heading to no deal and they're gonna try to blame Labour, cos that's what they do.
You’ve lost the plot. How are they going to try and blame Labour, Labour are at the table. Sure, Labour have set out ‘tests’ that are pure fantasy, have a front bench arguing about what Brexit they’d like and a leader who won’t actually commit in public to what he wants - not that the Conservatives have been any better - but the Conservatives are the party in power and they will get the blame. Corbyn knows this full well and watching them fall over, over something he actually supports, is his plan. It’s clever politics but it’s not the straight talking honest politics he promised.
This blind devotion to Corbyn is so strange. It’s like the most manical of Brexiteers or Remainers, the true Corbynite believers just think they are more virtuous than anyone else and their figurehead or beliefs are 100% correct 100% of the time.
All parties are to some degree self serving as they need to rally around some core principles and ignore some differences on many issues. But the Tories aren't tearing themselves apart as a party and voting en masse against their own leadership because they're self serving to the party
Digby wrote:All parties are to some degree self serving as they need to rally around some core principles and ignore some differences on many issues. But the Tories aren't tearing themselves apart as a party and voting en masse against their own leadership because they're self serving to the party
True, the Conservatives are much more self serving in an individual sense.
Everybody has been self-serving in this debacle. To say it’s solely the Conservatives is wholly one eyed and probably caused by believing too much propaganda.
Digby wrote:All parties are to some degree self serving as they need to rally around some core principles and ignore some differences on many issues. But the Tories aren't tearing themselves apart as a party and voting en masse against their own leadership because they're self serving to the party
True, the Conservatives are much more self serving in an individual sense.
You mean like a party leader saying he'd be guided by the members and then flat out ignoring them, that sort of individuality? Or is that okay as the Glorious Leader has only had to lie in servitude to the greater good?
Digby wrote:All parties are to some degree self serving as they need to rally around some core principles and ignore some differences on many issues. But the Tories aren't tearing themselves apart as a party and voting en masse against their own leadership because they're self serving to the party
True, the Conservatives are much more self serving in an individual sense.
You mean like a party leader saying he'd be guided by the members and then flat out ignoring them, that sort of individuality? Or is that okay as the Glorious Leader has only had to lie in servitude to the greater good?
He's a representative, not a delegate. They will get to the second referendum as a last resort. It is a divisive course though.
Mellsblue wrote:Umunna and Soubry meeting May today.......
Which is fine but at odds with also reaching out to the DUP and ERG which seems to be what several cabinet members gleaned over the weekend
May does remind me a lot of Major, well meaning but indicating to too many different factions she's on their side which obviously can't be delivered on
Mellsblue wrote:Umunna and Soubry meeting May today.......
Which is fine but at odds with also reaching out to the DUP and ERG which seems to be what several cabinet members gleaned over the weekend
May does remind me a lot of Major, well meaning but indicating to too many different factions she's on their side which obviously can't be delivered on
Surely the whole point of this exercise is to talk to all the different groupings to try and find consensus. Well, maybe not consensus but, rather, 326 votes.
In a positive move, Labour have stopped asking for their cake from the pudding trolley and have taken the test that Brexit must provide the exact same benefits as being a member of the EU off the table.
Mellsblue wrote:In a positive move, Labour have stopped asking for their cake from the pudding trolley and have taken the test that Brexit must provide the exact same benefits as being a member of the EU off the table.
They had to so Corbyn could say it's worth voting for
