England vs New Zealand - World Ranked #2 vs World Ranked #1

[Puja]

Sadly, Joseph just seems to be an emergency cover on the bench because JC/RM are rookies and Nowell is injured.

How can the management justify RM's squad place ahead of a 3rd SH or TH? It seemed questionable before the competition started but now it seems very odd indeed. I'd like the thought of Spencer on the bench (if not in the 9 shirt), for example.

I generally agree with you (although not on Spencer, who I don't see as international quality), but the gamble does appear to have paid off so far. We're through the group stages with no injuries or overwork and the only remaining risk is if a scrum-half or tighthead gets injured on Saturday meaning we have to fly someone out to sit on the bench for the final/3rd place play-off.

If we do win the tournament, then McConnochie (and Singleton, although he at least had a purpose) will be the embarrassed looking guy at the back of the MBE photo, wondering how he's met the Queen for scoring a try against the USA.

While I don't want to look into it too closely, is anyone else curious as to what demon Eddie Jones has sacrificed in order to have our squad this injury-free? And actually, has anyone seen RM since the pool stages? Maybe he was the sacrifice?

Puja

[TheDasher]

So difficult. I'm not totally convinced this is as strong an England side as vs Aus. I think Tuilagi is a better 13 than 12, but more than good enough at both. Farrell is a better 10 than he is 12 and I think Slade has a lot to offer.

On balance, I think I'd have kept the same side and brought Ford on at half time if needed.

[TheDasher]

Off topic because not happening but I wonder how:

Youngs
Ford
May
Manu
Daly
Cokanasiga
Watson

would go... probably fairly well.

[Numbers]

https://www.englandrugby.com/news/artic ... semi-final

England starting XV

15 Elliot Daly (Saracens, 37 caps)
14 Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, 40 caps)
13 Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers, 38 caps)
12 Owen Farrell (Saracens, 77 caps) C
11 Jonny May (Leicester Tigers, 50 caps)
10 George Ford (Leicester Tigers, 63 caps)
9 Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 93 caps)

1 Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 56 caps)
2 Jamie George (Saracens, 43 caps)
3 Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins, 29 caps)
4 Maro Itoje (Saracens, 32 caps)
5 Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 79 caps)
6 Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 17 caps)
7 Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby, 13 caps)
8 Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 49 caps)

Finishers

16 Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, 19 caps)
17 Joe Marler (Harlequins, 66 caps)
18 Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 93 caps)
19 George Kruis (Saracens, 39 caps)
20 Mark Wilson (Sale Sharks 16 caps)
21 Willi Heinz (Gloucester Rugby, 8 caps)
22 Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 25 caps)
23 Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby, 45 caps)


While I would have dropped Daly, I understand why we haven't - it is very late for a change. My only quibble is Slade and Joseph on the bench - it should be one or the other and a winger, preferably Cokanasiga. If May goes down, how do we cover that? Or if we need a change to swing the match, what are we going to do with two outside centres?

Puja

Daley to the wing and Slade to fullback? Either that or Farrell to fullback and Slade to 13 and Manu to 12.

[richy678]

That is phenomenal news if true.

Not sure what to make of NZ picking Barrett at 6. I mentioned on the SHMB that our experiences of locks at 6 are universally horrible and so that's colouring my opinion, but it feels like that's leaving the ruck area very exposed to Curry and Underhill. Although we are going to have to win our lineouts with 2.5 jumpers against their 5 options. What's the opinion?

Puja

Barrett can genuinely play 6, AB's are going to play with 2 2 2 2 across the paddock, you go by their 4 mantras OGL (Over Gain Line), KBA (Keep Ball Alive), TQB (Top Quality Ball), LQB (Lightning Quick Ball). They have a pack full of players capable of strong carries, support and offloading combine that with good clean ball very quickly and oppos are screwed. The props are carrying a lot more than they have in years. Having said that this is gonna be like the ROAR(just for you Morepork) with two big stags going for it on Saturday, maybe this should have been the final...

Going by the amount of moustaches sported they also have LGBT as their fifth mantra.

Oh dear. Carefull. Where I work that statement could career limiting at least.

[richy678]

https://www.englandrugby.com/news/artic ... semi-final

England starting XV

15 Elliot Daly (Saracens, 37 caps)
14 Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, 40 caps)
13 Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers, 38 caps)
12 Owen Farrell (Saracens, 77 caps) C
11 Jonny May (Leicester Tigers, 50 caps)
10 George Ford (Leicester Tigers, 63 caps)
9 Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 93 caps)

1 Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 56 caps)
2 Jamie George (Saracens, 43 caps)
3 Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins, 29 caps)
4 Maro Itoje (Saracens, 32 caps)
5 Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 79 caps)
6 Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 17 caps)
7 Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby, 13 caps)
8 Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 49 caps)

Finishers

16 Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, 19 caps)
17 Joe Marler (Harlequins, 66 caps)
18 Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 93 caps)
19 George Kruis (Saracens, 39 caps)
20 Mark Wilson (Sale Sharks 16 caps)
21 Willi Heinz (Gloucester Rugby, 8 caps)
22 Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 25 caps)
23 Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby, 45 caps)


While I would have dropped Daly, I understand why we haven't - it is very late for a change. My only quibble is Slade and Joseph on the bench - it should be one or the other and a winger, preferably Cokanasiga. If May goes down, how do we cover that? Or if we need a change to swing the match, what are we going to do with two outside centres?

Puja

Daley to the wing and Slade to fullback? Either that or Farrell to fullback and Slade to 13 and Manu to 12.

I'm happy apart from Daly. Absolute pants last week so EJ just bloody minded.

Ludlam has been genuinely very good through the tournament so is unlucky to miss out to Wilson - who has always looked a real class act.

I think Coka would have been better on the bench if we need the cavalry. JJ is also a class act and covers outside centre and wing - bffs Slade is already on the bench - who is covering centre/10/15...whatever, the two starting centres, plus Daly could play at 13. Coka would offer the plan c if required.

[Mellsblue]

Yup, totally pointless. I don't think he would have gone were Jones not so deeply in love with Nowell and desperate to have an insurance policy if he wasn't fit enough.

The way it turned out Nowell was barely fit and McConnochie was still basically unneeded.

This.

[TheDasher]

https://www.englandrugby.com/news/artic ... semi-final

England starting XV

15 Elliot Daly (Saracens, 37 caps)
14 Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, 40 caps)
13 Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers, 38 caps)
12 Owen Farrell (Saracens, 77 caps) C
11 Jonny May (Leicester Tigers, 50 caps)
10 George Ford (Leicester Tigers, 63 caps)
9 Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 93 caps)

1 Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 56 caps)
2 Jamie George (Saracens, 43 caps)
3 Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins, 29 caps)
4 Maro Itoje (Saracens, 32 caps)
5 Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 79 caps)
6 Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 17 caps)
7 Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby, 13 caps)
8 Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 49 caps)

Finishers

16 Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, 19 caps)
17 Joe Marler (Harlequins, 66 caps)
18 Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 93 caps)
19 George Kruis (Saracens, 39 caps)
20 Mark Wilson (Sale Sharks 16 caps)
21 Willi Heinz (Gloucester Rugby, 8 caps)
22 Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 25 caps)
23 Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby, 45 caps)


While I would have dropped Daly, I understand why we haven't - it is very late for a change. My only quibble is Slade and Joseph on the bench - it should be one or the other and a winger, preferably Cokanasiga. If May goes down, how do we cover that? Or if we need a change to swing the match, what are we going to do with two outside centres?

Puja

Daley to the wing and Slade to fullback? Either that or Farrell to fullback and Slade to 13 and Manu to 12.

I'm happy apart from Daly. Absolute pants last week so EJ just bloody minded.

Ludlam has been genuinely very good through the tournament so is unlucky to miss out to Wilson - who has always looked a real class act.

I think Coka would have been better on the bench if we need the cavalry. JJ is also a class act and covers outside centre and wing - bffs Slade is already on the bench - who is covering centre/10/15...whatever, the two starting centres, plus Daly could play at 13. Coka would offer the plan c if required.

Agree on Coka.

[Mellsblue]

Barrett can genuinely play 6, AB's are going to play with 2 2 2 2 across the paddock, you go by their 4 mantras OGL (Over Gain Line), KBA (Keep Ball Alive), TQB (Top Quality Ball), LQB (Lightning Quick Ball). They have a pack full of players capable of strong carries, support and offloading combine that with good clean ball very quickly and oppos are screwed. The props are carrying a lot more than they have in years. Having said that this is gonna be like the ROAR(just for you Morepork) with two big stags going for it on Saturday, maybe this should have been the final...

Going by the amount of moustaches sported they also have LGBT as their fifth mantra.

Oh dear. Carefull. Where I work that statement could career limiting at least.

Don’t worry, I’m sure the MOD knows it’s a light hearted WUM at those sporting a moustache not anyone who is L, G, B, T or +.

[Puja]

Going by the amount of moustaches sported they also have LGBT as their fifth mantra.

Oh dear. Carefull. Where I work that statement could career limiting at least.

Don’t worry, I’m sure the MOD knows it’s a light hearted WUM at those sporting a moustache not anyone who is L, G, B, T or +.

{Mod}The Mod's a B himself and finds it amusing as a poke at the AB love for acronyms and some truly Village People hair and taches. Don't see it as using LGBT as a pejorative, so I'm cool with it.{/Mod}

[Mikey Brown]

I would have loved to use Cokanasiga more in the tournament but it's hard to imagine he would be match sharp enough to be involved at this point. Yet another reason the Nowell situation is/was annoying.

[Beasties]

I would have loved to use Cokanasiga more in the tournament but it's hard to imagine he would be match sharp enough to be involved at this point. Yet another reason the Nowell situation is/was annoying.

Yup. And having him on the bench to throw on in a shit or bust situation would've been something at least.

[Scrumhead]

https://www.englandrugby.com/news/artic ... semi-final

England starting XV

15 Elliot Daly (Saracens, 37 caps)
14 Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, 40 caps)
13 Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers, 38 caps)
12 Owen Farrell (Saracens, 77 caps) C
11 Jonny May (Leicester Tigers, 50 caps)
10 George Ford (Leicester Tigers, 63 caps)
9 Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 93 caps)

1 Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 56 caps)
2 Jamie George (Saracens, 43 caps)
3 Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins, 29 caps)
4 Maro Itoje (Saracens, 32 caps)
5 Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 79 caps)
6 Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 17 caps)
7 Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby, 13 caps)
8 Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 49 caps)

Finishers

16 Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, 19 caps)
17 Joe Marler (Harlequins, 66 caps)
18 Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 93 caps)
19 George Kruis (Saracens, 39 caps)
20 Mark Wilson (Sale Sharks 16 caps)
21 Willi Heinz (Gloucester Rugby, 8 caps)
22 Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 25 caps)
23 Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby, 45 caps)


While I would have dropped Daly, I understand why we haven't - it is very late for a change. My only quibble is Slade and Joseph on the bench - it should be one or the other and a winger, preferably Cokanasiga. If May goes down, how do we cover that? Or if we need a change to swing the match, what are we going to do with two outside centres?

Puja

Yep. I agree.

All in all, I’m pretty happy with that 23. Should be a fascinating game.

[Mellsblue]

Oh dear. Carefull. Where I work that statement could career limiting at least.

Don’t worry, I’m sure the MOD knows it’s a light hearted WUM at those sporting a moustache not anyone who is L, G, B, T or +.

{Mod}The Mod's a B himself and finds it amusing as a poke at the AB love for acronyms and some truly Village People hair and taches. Don't see it as using LGBT as a pejorative, so I'm cool with it.{/Mod}

I think I remember you coming out during that horrible discussion we had about whether to ‘allow’ gay players to shower with straight players. There was one bloke who was convinced that he was so desirable that any gay man seeing him naked in a shower would find it impossible to not throw themselves at him. On the plus side, he was roundly condoned. On the negative side, you then felt free to tell us about your worrying crush on Geoff Parling. Not Lewsey, Cohen or Slade but Geoff ‘Santa’s tallest helper’ Parling. I think we were all happy when he retired, and it have nothing to do with his performances on the field.

[Oakboy]

My main concern is what we are going to do to avoid Barrett destroying us from FB if we play our usual kicking game. Ford/Farrell at 10/12 increases the potential damage, IMO, especially if Youngs continues to box-kick everything.

[Mikey Brown]

We're definitely going to have to kick well, that's always the case against the ABs, I'm not sure why having Ford at 10 makes that more of a problem.

It seemed like we knew if we held Aus out we could just grind them down and they'd crumble, but we know NZ will score points against us, so we need to score too and that means Ford/Tuilagi in their best spots.

I'm also not even sure at this point Farrell is a better 10 than 12. People keep saying he played well against Aus, fair enough, but what about the frequent garbage performances at 10 over the last year? To me it's a compromise, but at 12 he is able to bring his very noisy brand of leadership, solid-ish all round game and goal-kicking to the team without displacing our quality midfielders.

So much of my initial dislike of the Ford/Farrell axis was it not being balanced out with a hard running 13. Davies did it with the Lions and Tuilagi can do it now.

[Puja]

Don’t worry, I’m sure the MOD knows it’s a light hearted WUM at those sporting a moustache not anyone who is L, G, B, T or +.

{Mod}The Mod's a B himself and finds it amusing as a poke at the AB love for acronyms and some truly Village People hair and taches. Don't see it as using LGBT as a pejorative, so I'm cool with it.{/Mod}

I think I remember you coming out during that horrible discussion we had about whether to ‘allow’ gay players to shower with straight players. There was one bloke who was convinced that he was so desirable that any gay man seeing him naked in a shower would find it impossible to not throw themselves at him. On the plus side, he was roundly condoned. On the negative side, you then felt free to tell us about your worrying crush on Geoff Parling. Not Lewsey, Cohen or Slade but Geoff ‘Santa’s tallest helper’ Parling. I think we were all happy when he retired, and it have nothing to do with his performances on the field.

I think you have me confused with another poster on that one; I've never had an interest in Parling (other than the fact that he was involved in that incredible game where Leicester 2nds beat South Africa... and okay, that probably is enough to get a blow-job, but that would be professional respect rather than desire). I was much more of a Ben Foden man, although he's not aging well...

Puja

[Mellsblue]

{Mod}The Mod's a B himself and finds it amusing as a poke at the AB love for acronyms and some truly Village People hair and taches. Don't see it as using LGBT as a pejorative, so I'm cool with it.{/Mod}

I think I remember you coming out during that horrible discussion we had about whether to ‘allow’ gay players to shower with straight players. There was one bloke who was convinced that he was so desirable that any gay man seeing him naked in a shower would find it impossible to not throw themselves at him. On the plus side, he was roundly condoned. On the negative side, you then felt free to tell us about your worrying crush on Geoff Parling. Not Lewsey, Cohen or Slade but Geoff ‘Santa’s tallest helper’ Parling. I think we were all happy when he retired, and it have nothing to do with his performances on the field.

I think you have me confused with another poster on that one; I've never had an interest in Parling (other than the fact that he was involved in that incredible game where Leicester 2nds beat South Africa... and okay, that probably is enough to get a blow-job, but that would be professional respect rather than desire). I was much more of a Ben Foden man, although he's not aging well...

Puja

Too late to deny it now. Foden is a shell of his former self, both on and off the field.

[Mellsblue]

My main concern is what we are going to do to avoid Barrett destroying us from FB if we play our usual kicking game. Ford/Farrell at 10/12 increases the potential damage, IMO, especially if Youngs continues to box-kick everything.

A number of pundits are advocating we kick to Barrett with the thought that if he’s at the bottom of the ruck he won’t be slicing and dicing us in open field. That, of course, means we need to kick well......

[Puja]

My main concern is what we are going to do to avoid Barrett destroying us from FB if we play our usual kicking game. Ford/Farrell at 10/12 increases the potential damage, IMO, especially if Youngs continues to box-kick everything.

A number of pundits are advocating we kick to Barrett with the thought that if he’s at the bottom of the ruck he won’t be slicing and dicing us in open field. That, of course, means we need to kick well......

That seems bananas. "We don't want this player running at our defence in the open field, so let's kick the ball to him so that, once he's run at us in the open field, he won't be able to run at us in the open field in the next phase!"

Puja

[Mikey Brown]

My main concern is what we are going to do to avoid Barrett destroying us from FB if we play our usual kicking game. Ford/Farrell at 10/12 increases the potential damage, IMO, especially if Youngs continues to box-kick everything.

A number of pundits are advocating we kick to Barrett with the thought that if he’s at the bottom of the ruck he won’t be slicing and dicing us in open field. That, of course, means we need to kick well......

If we can engineer it so Barrett catches a high-ball with Lawes and Underhill coming at him from either side then we might be good. Seems pretty risky if not.

[Which Tyler]

I think Coka would have been better on the bench if we need the cavalry. JJ is also a class act and covers outside centre and wing - bffs Slade is already on the bench - who is covering centre/10/15...whatever, the two starting centres, plus Daly could play at 13. Coka would offer the plan c if required.

On form, I'd far rather have JJ than Slade, were either of them to drop from the bench, allowing for Coka

[Banquo]

Off topic because not happening but I wonder how:

Youngs
Ford
May
Manu
Daly
Cokanasiga
Watson

would go... probably fairly well.

The stick Daly gets for his defence at 15 would be as nothing compared to what he'd get at 13.

[Oakboy]

My main concern is what we are going to do to avoid Barrett destroying us from FB if we play our usual kicking game. Ford/Farrell at 10/12 increases the potential damage, IMO, especially if Youngs continues to box-kick everything.

A number of pundits are advocating we kick to Barrett with the thought that if he’s at the bottom of the ruck he won’t be slicing and dicing us in open field. That, of course, means we need to kick well......

If we can engineer it so Barrett catches a high-ball with Lawes and Underhill coming at him from either side then we might be good. Seems pretty risky if not.

Our kicks are well-chased on far too few occasions. If, if, if the two Fs are as good at kicking as is claimed then the opposition FB is often gifted the ball unchallenged as a matter of policy. I think that is mega-risky if the FB is Barrett and the opposition is as good in attack as NZ.

[Mellsblue]

A number of pundits are advocating we kick to Barrett with the thought that if he’s at the bottom of the ruck he won’t be slicing and dicing us in open field. That, of course, means we need to kick well......

If we can engineer it so Barrett catches a high-ball with Lawes and Underhill coming at him from either side then we might be good. Seems pretty risky if not.

Our kicks are well-chased on far too few occasions. If, if, if the two Fs are as good at kicking as is claimed then the opposition FB is often gifted the ball unchallenged as a matter of policy. I think that is mega-risky if the FB is Barrett and the opposition is as good in attack as NZ.

The ‘tactic’ obviously comes with the caveat of the kick being a contested up and under rather than a kick for territory.