Ita - Eng Match Thread

[Banquo]

Ryan's take:

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2 ... -dean-ryan

quite kind...

[Banquo]

Maybe, we should pause for thought. The selection was announced as a team to run away with it in the last 20, more or less what happened. Comparing it with France's effort against the same opposition, we can be pleased. Two away games, two wins.

There's hell of a lot 'not-to-like' but as a base to work from, things aren't too bad. And, as I keep saying, selection for the 3rd match, after the break, was always going to be the key issue. EJ must know his best forwards' line-up now. I doubt the Irish will be confident!

hell has in fact frozen over

[Banquo]

Maybe, we should pause for thought. The selection was announced as a team to run away with it in the last 20, more or less what happened. Comparing it with France's effort against the same opposition, we can be pleased. Two away games, two wins.

There's hell of a lot 'not-to-like' but as a base to work from, things aren't too bad. And, as I keep saying, selection for the 3rd match, after the break, was always going to be the key issue. EJ must know his best forwards' line-up now. I doubt the Irish will be confident!

Fair comment, I think the problem is what a mess the first half was at times but I suppose a bit of patience is called for whilst the new systems bed in as Dean Ryan alludes too in his article.

I don't think new systems account for terrible discipline and a very shoddy lineout- they may account for the lack of resourcing at the breakdown. Still, as I've said, he's looking to make sure he wins whilst assessing what his best squad looks like and develop a winning style based on that....and he's achieving the winning part, and the looking at the forwards part.

[Mikey Brown]

I was more commenting on Mike Brown's post rather than yours really. I actually agree with you. Mike's since edited his post so he's agreeing also so everyone's happy

I think this is the post about the impact subs always looking better? The first draft sounded a bit abrasive but I kind of stand by it.

I realise every other post of mine is now on this subject but it keeps coming up. It just isn't the case that Care only looks better off the bench, though is suffering a bit the same way as Ford when we just end up sitting back and hoofing it. If he's choosing to do that of his own accord then that's poor but if you watch the phases where we try to move the ball with Care and with Youngs it's night and day. Youngs's service has been terrible for a few years.

[Peat]

Comparisons to a French team in a rawer and worse place than us do not make me happy or optimistic.

The base for the Ireland game is this:

Set-pieces that shown one troubled game and one good game each
A breakdown that's broken down
Scrum-halves that predictably get both shaken and stirred by the above
A playmaking axis of a fly-half who's out of his natural game and confidence and a fly-half who's out of position

Ireland can't be confident about anything after their first two games but they're not as bad as they make them look and we're not as good as our first two results make us look.

I think we'll win. But I'm not feeling well set for it.

[nivek]

I don't think new systems account for terrible discipline and a very shoddy lineout- they may account for the lack of resourcing at the breakdown. Still, as I've said, he's looking to make sure he wins whilst assessing what his best squad looks like and develop a winning style based on that....and he's achieving the winning part, and the looking at the forwards part.

Yeah the standing around looking confused was what I was thinking of more than anything

[Banquo]

...didnt have that much ball, pens and lineouts didnt help with that

http://www.englandrugby.com/trytracker/ ... /teamstats

[Eugene Wrayburn]

Comparisons to a French team in a rawer and worse place than us do not make me happy or optimistic.

The base for the Ireland game is this:

Set-pieces that shown one troubled game and one good game each
A breakdown that's broken down
Scrum-halves that predictably get both shaken and stirred by the above
A playmaking axis of a fly-half who's out of his natural game and confidence and a fly-half who's out of position

Ireland can't be confident about anything after their first two games but they're not as bad as they make them look and we're not as good as our first two results make us look.

I think we'll win. But I'm not feeling well set for it.

I'd say we were ok against wales - probably better than you've shown yet - and poo against France. A lot depends on who's fit for us. 1 more tighthead would make a massive difference - being down to our 3rd choice has been interesting and actually extremely heartening given that White has gone pretty well, but not something I care to repeat in a couple of weeks time. Healy back as well would be even better. Not suffereing a heap of injuries during the game would be nice too - without meaning to be churlish it seems to me that that had a significant bearing on the scale of your win today

[p/d]

I'd say we were ok against wales - probably better than you've shown yet - and poo against France. A lot depends on who's fit for us. 1 more tighthead would make a massive difference - being down to our 3rd choice has been interesting and actually extremely heartening given that White has gone pretty well, but not something I care to repeat in a couple of weeks time. Healy back as well would be even better. Not suffereing a heap of injuries during the game would be nice too - without meaning to be churlish it seems to me that that had a significant bearing on the scale of your win today

Their centre pairing had me worried. Losing young grizzly was a bonus to us

[Peat]

Probably. The important part of it to me was that the guts went out of them with the intercept, but injuries certainly don't help. Garcia leaving was definitely an aid.

The fitness of Mike Ross will hugely swing my opinion of how next game will go but the current Ireland XV has some pretty major problems. So does England's, but we do at least have the knack for scoring tries, and that is enough to have me full of arrogant confidence for the game ahead.

[Mellsblue]

that is enough to have me full of arrogant confidence for the game ahead.

Cue 50 point spanking.

[Eugene Wrayburn]

Probably. The important part of it to me was that the guts went out of them with the intercept, but injuries certainly don't help. Garcia leaving was definitely an aid.

The fitness of Mike Ross will hugely swing my opinion of how next game will go but the current Ireland XV has some pretty major problems. So does England's, but we do at least have the knack for scoring tries, and that is enough to have me full of arrogant confidence for the game ahead.

You have the knack of scoring tries against scotland and Italy...

Given our injuries we're going ok. The pack is producing half decent ball. We need more ball carrying than we ended the game with, but whoever we pick we'll be competitive at the breakdown. Line out is going ok. Scrum depends on the ref, which is an uncomfortable place to be.

our backline will pose some questions if they aren't all crocked. I think the disjointed nature has a lot to do with injuries cropping up with irritating regularity. Henshaw and Trimble are going pretty well and Payne is steady. Whilst the rest may be largely meh we're not exactly alone in that. Again, fitness and selection will probably determine our ability to attack cohesively.

[Beasties]

I was more commenting on Mike Brown's post rather than yours really. I actually agree with you. Mike's since edited his post so he's agreeing also so everyone's happy

I think this is the post about the impact subs always looking better? The first draft sounded a bit abrasive but I kind of stand by it.

I realise every other post of mine is now on this subject but it keeps coming up. It just isn't the case that Care only looks better off the bench, though is suffering a bit the same way as Ford when we just end up sitting back and hoofing it. If he's choosing to do that of his own accord then that's poor but if you watch the phases where we try to move the ball with Care and with Youngs it's night and day. Youngs's service has been terrible for a few years.

Not too sure what we're arguing about here Mike, Care has been much the better player when starting and when coming off the bench. Yes he's had games that have been very average to poor, but Youngs has a bigger percentage in that category. I'd persevere with Care for the moment but want two other SHs looked at. I'm fed up watching Youngs laboured decision making and special passing. Simpson couldn't have got injured at a worse time.

[Peat]

that is enough to have me full of arrogant confidence for the game ahead.

Cue 50 point spanking.

I regret nothing!

[Puja]

If we end up with Haskell and Robshaw starting I'll go postal.

Pretty much all other decisions I will forgive (though will be very disgruntled if we end up with a 6-2 split, Farrell at 12, and Goode on the bench)

Spot on. Anything else, I'll forgive as Eddie working through his master-plan, but we surely cannot start that same back row again. Ireland will take it apart at the breakdown.

Puja

[Mush]

...didnt have that much ball, pens and lineouts didnt help with that

http://www.englandrugby.com/trytracker/ ... /teamstats

The Italian number of men beat stat is worrying as this demonstrates the England missed tackles count. I'm not sure anyone was faultless in the first half.

[Mush]

Jackson is doing all he can to help Italy.

We're due a yellow for shewer.

What was going on with that complete hash of a decision just before half time. He signaled a penalty advantage to England, from which they never looked like getting into any decent position to take advantage, only for the Italians to pinch the ball and no taking the play back. He can be heard on the Ref mike telling Hartley (I think) that he clearly called advantage over, which oddly didn't get picked up on the Ref mike. If my recollection is correct, it was an extremely poor decision. The worst of a few strange decisions for both teams.

[Mikey Brown]

I considered punching him.

[fivepointer]

If we end up with Haskell and Robshaw starting I'll go postal.

Pretty much all other decisions I will forgive (though will be very disgruntled if we end up with a 6-2 split, Farrell at 12, and Goode on the bench)

Spot on. Anything else, I'll forgive as Eddie working through his master-plan, but we surely cannot start that same back row again. Ireland will take it apart at the breakdown.

Puja

7 and 12 remain the main issues (along with possibly 9) that EJ hasnt really dealt with. We could really have done with seeing Devoto given a run out and a bit more of Clifford.

I have a feeling Ford and Farrell will remain in place but something surely has to give in the back row, where we need a better balance.

[Renniks]

7 and 12 remain the main issues (along with possibly 9) that EJ hasnt really dealt with. We could really have done with seeing Devoto given a run out and a bit more of Clifford.

I have a feeling Ford and Farrell will remain in place but something surely has to give in the back row, where we need a better balance.

Pretty much this… I'd say our biggest issue is discipline - especially as our defence seems relatively solid so it always feels just a stupid thing to do. But I feel that personnel wise, back row balance is awful, and 10/12 is just frustrating if not as bad as it could be.

[Puja]

What was going on with that complete hash of a decision just before half time. He signaled a penalty advantage to England, from which they never looked like getting into any decent position to take advantage, only for the Italians to pinch the ball and no taking the play back. He can be heard on the Ref mike telling Hartley (I think) that he clearly called advantage over, which oddly didn't get picked up on the Ref mike. If my recollection is correct, it was an extremely poor decision. The worst of a few strange decisions for both teams.

It was a free-kick advantage for numbers in the lineout and I did hear him call advantage over. He wasn't particularly clear on what type of advantage it was, so his communication was poor, but the decision itself was solid.

Puja

[Epaminondas Pules]

Jackson is doing all he can to help Italy.

We're due a yellow for shewer.

What was going on with that complete hash of a decision just before half time. He signaled a penalty advantage to England, from which they never looked like getting into any decent position to take advantage, only for the Italians to pinch the ball and no taking the play back. He can be heard on the Ref mike telling Hartley (I think) that he clearly called advantage over, which oddly didn't get picked up on the Ref mike. If my recollection is correct, it was an extremely poor decision. The worst of a few strange decisions for both teams.

He did call advantage over, it was picked up on the sound. We hadn't made any yards, but did have multiple phases.

[Which Tyler]

Agreed - I certainly heard the call.

Youngs getting MotM was an Irish plot to dupe Eddie into selecting him again for the next match.