COVID19

[Sandydragon]

That's what I'd figured from your background. There was an article speculating that one of the reasons Germany had been relatively successful, was that Angela Merkel has a strong scientific background (vs Bojo's classics degree); there may be summat in that. My Chemistry degree might have served him better

BoJos liberalism (allegedly) is a major contributor in the decision making process - he doesn't like a big state bossing citizens around. Even when its obvious it has to.

By liberalism you mean libertarianism, right?

Sorry, serves me right for multi-tasking. Yes, I mean libertarianism.

[Stones of granite]

BoJos liberalism (allegedly) is a major contributor in the decision making process - he doesn't like a big state bossing citizens around. Even when its obvious it has to.

By liberalism you mean libertarianism, right?

Sorry, serves me right for multi-tasking. Yes, I mean libertarianism.

Phew, thank goodness. I read librarianism.

[Banquo]

By liberalism you mean libertarianism, right?

Sorry, serves me right for multi-tasking. Yes, I mean libertarianism.

Phew, thank goodness. I read librarianism.

[Mellsblue]

Sorry, serves me right for multi-tasking. Yes, I mean libertarianism.

Phew, thank goodness. I read librarianism.

This.

[Son of Mathonwy]

What's sdra?

7-day rollin' avg..

Cool, of course. Do you have a link for that data? Is it behind a paywall?

[Son of Mathonwy]

UK also slipping down the sdra table (totals, to 2 jun) - US, UK, Swe on downward trends.
Ind set to overtake us soon.

1. US 1014
2. Bra 955
3. Mex 358
4. UK 285
5. Ind 204
6. Rus 165

(Swe 49)

The big countries will generally muscle their way to the top in the raw numbers. (Other than China, of course!)

[morepork]

That is a catalogue of hands-off government "leadership".

[Son of Mathonwy]

(accountable and responsible do mean different things to me, to be clear, but maybe not to others)

Okay, spell it out then.

You are a demanding fella aren't you? . For me, simply, responsibility can be shared in terms of achieving/executing 'tasks' (e.g. SAGE, PHE, NHSE, DOH, Govt), but accountability cannot eg Govt.

Not really how I see it. I think both can be shared - you can have shared responsibility, you can have shared accountability. Of course it's much better - in both cases - when there is no sharing, or at least when one person or entity is ultimately responsible/accountable.

So from a programmatic viewpoint- Responsibility focuses on defined stuff that must be in place to achieve a goal. Accountability is tied to the successful completion of overall goals and taking responsibility for everything that happens as a result of the actions that were taken. Ultimately you need a single place to point the finger at, and that's accountability. Any further quibbles, ask someone else!

Yeah, I don't completely agree with those definitions. Per the dictionary, "accountable" has a narrow meaning. "Responsible" can mean accountable, but it can have several different (but related) meanings:

"accountable" - obliged to give a reckoning or explanation for actions or decisions
"responsible" - 1) obliged to carry out a duty or care for something
- 2) having to account for one's actions (ie = accountable)
- 3) being the cause of something
- 4) trustworthy
- 5) involving important duties

When I say, the government is responsible for the state of the UK's health system, I mean in senses 2) and 3) [although 1) and 5) do apply to their position], as follows:

2) they have to account for their actions and decisions (ie they are accountable), but also

3) they are the cause of the situation, in the following sense. They are not the cause of every single precise detail of the operation of the NHS (althought they are for PHE) - they didn't start with a blank sheet in 2010. However they are entirely the cause of the state of functionality of the UK's health system, that is what it does and how well it does it. If they wanted to increase capacity here, or add functionality here, or reduce this or that, then while they may not have had complete freedom in how they achieved it, they have had 10 years to achieve it. They are the cause of it whether they built new functionality, destroyed functionality or maintained functionality.

[Digby]

None of this seems especially responsible behaviour

[Son of Mathonwy]

Why is the UK coronavirus death rate so stubbornly high?
Chris Smyth
Whitehall Editor
Thursday June 04 2020, 12.00pm, The Times

....

Italy’s decision to impose a lockdown on March 9 changed that: as soon as lockdown stopped being inconceivable, it rapidly became inevitable. If a week is a long time in politics, it is even longer in an epidemic, and there is now acceptance among those scientists that acting slightly earlier could have saved thousands of lives.

....

Can't face fact checking the whole article, but this March 9 date is hardly the first date Italy implemented "lockdown", so it stopped being "inconceivable" a long time before that, ie:

On 22 February, the government announced a new decree imposing the quarantine of more than 50,000 people from 11 municipalities in Northern Italy. The quarantine zones are called the Red Zones and the areas in Lombardy and Veneto outside of them are called the Yellow Zones.[123] Penalties for violations range from a €206 fine to three months of imprisonment.[124] The Italian military and law enforcement agencies were instructed to secure and implement the lockdown.[125]

On 1 March, the Council of Ministers approved a decree to organise the containment of the outbreak. In the decree, the Italian national territory was divided into three areas:[214]
A red zone (composed of the municipalities of Bertonico, Casalpusterlengo, Castelgerundo, Castiglione D'Adda, Codogno, Fombio, Maleo, San Fiorano, Somaglia and Terranova dei Passerini in Lombardy, and the municipality of Vò in Veneto), where the whole population is in quarantine.
A yellow zone (composed of the regions of Lombardy, Veneto and Emilia-Romagna), where social and sport events are suspended and schools, theatres, clubs and cinemas are closed.
The rest of the national territory, where safety and prevention measures are advertised in public places and special sanitisations are performed on means of public transport.

On 4 March, the Italian government imposed the shutdown of all schools and universities nationwide for two weeks as the country reached 100 deaths from the outbreak.[215][216] The same day, the government ruled that all sporting events in Italy would be played behind closed doors until 3 April.[217]

In the night between 7 and 8 March, the government approved a decree to lock down Lombardy and 14 other provinces in Veneto, Emilia-Romagna, Piedmont and Marche, involving more than 16 million people

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_ ... c_in_Italy

[Banquo]

Okay, spell it out then.

You are a demanding fella aren't you? . For me, simply, responsibility can be shared in terms of achieving/executing 'tasks' (e.g. SAGE, PHE, NHSE, DOH, Govt), but accountability cannot eg Govt.

Not really how I see it. I think both can be shared - you can have shared responsibility, you can have shared accountability. Of course it's much better - in both cases - when there is no sharing, or at least when one person or entity is ultimately responsible/accountable.

So from a programmatic viewpoint- Responsibility focuses on defined stuff that must be in place to achieve a goal. Accountability is tied to the successful completion of overall goals and taking responsibility for everything that happens as a result of the actions that were taken. Ultimately you need a single place to point the finger at, and that's accountability. Any further quibbles, ask someone else!

Yeah, I don't completely agree with those definitions. Per the dictionary, "accountable" has a narrow meaning. "Responsible" can mean accountable, but it can have several different (but related) meanings:

"accountable" - obliged to give a reckoning or explanation for actions or decisions
"responsible" - 1) obliged to carry out a duty or care for something
- 2) having to account for one's actions (ie = accountable)
- 3) being the cause of something
- 4) trustworthy
- 5) involving important duties

When I say, the government is responsible for the state of the UK's health system, I mean in senses 2) and 3) [although 1) and 5) do apply to their position], as follows:

2) they have to account for their actions and decisions (ie they are accountable), but also

3) they are the cause of the situation, in the following sense. They are not the cause of every single precise detail of the operation of the NHS (althought they are for PHE) - they didn't start with a blank sheet in 2010. However they are entirely the cause of the state of functionality of the UK's health system, that is what it does and how well it does it. If they wanted to increase capacity here, or add functionality here, or reduce this or that, then while they may not have had complete freedom in how they achieved it, they have had 10 years to achieve it. They are the cause of it whether they built new functionality, destroyed functionality or maintained functionality.

As I originally said, semantics, and as I later said, quibble elsewhere . This govt is accountable in my eyes for the outturn of the crisis- accountability encompasses responsibility as I said, albeit in a programmatic framing.

[Galfon]

What's sdra?

7-day rollin' avg..

Cool, of course. Do you have a link for that data? Is it behind a paywall?

Same place as before - ft.com (coronavirus tracked)
 'epidemic trajectory' link takes you there too if you land at the global overview (- all free to view.)
...they keep doing tweaks, so you can type a country to highlight (up to 5) or click on a curve/line of interest, select any point and it shows the sdra at that point.

Re. China, given that several days ago comparisons between Shanghai & Isle of Skye:.
Wuhan ->->
 -> Shanghai (popn. 24M) : 520 miles,
Covid deaths 6.
-> Skye (popn.10K): 5400 miles,
Covid deaths 9.
are they already immune in them parts ??

[Son of Mathonwy]

7-day rollin' avg..

Cool, of course. Do you have a link for that data? Is it behind a paywall?

Same place as before - ft.com (coronavirus tracked)
 'epidemic trajectory' link takes you there too if you land at the global overview (- all free to view.)
...they keep doing tweaks, so you can type a country to highlight (up to 5) or click on a curve/line of interest, select any point and it shows the sdra at that point.

Re. China, given that several days ago comparisons between Shanghai & Isle of Skye:.
Wuhan ->->
 -> Shanghai (popn. 24M) : 520 miles,
Covid deaths 6.
-> Skye (popn.10K): 5400 miles,
Covid deaths 9.
are they already immune in them parts ??

I get it, you have to painstakingly pull out each number. I was hoping there was a table somewhere

Still a great page though, I cannot complain really.

[Son of Mathonwy]

You are a demanding fella aren't you? . For me, simply, responsibility can be shared in terms of achieving/executing 'tasks' (e.g. SAGE, PHE, NHSE, DOH, Govt), but accountability cannot eg Govt.

Not really how I see it. I think both can be shared - you can have shared responsibility, you can have shared accountability. Of course it's much better - in both cases - when there is no sharing, or at least when one person or entity is ultimately responsible/accountable.

So from a programmatic viewpoint- Responsibility focuses on defined stuff that must be in place to achieve a goal. Accountability is tied to the successful completion of overall goals and taking responsibility for everything that happens as a result of the actions that were taken. Ultimately you need a single place to point the finger at, and that's accountability. Any further quibbles, ask someone else!

Yeah, I don't completely agree with those definitions. Per the dictionary, "accountable" has a narrow meaning. "Responsible" can mean accountable, but it can have several different (but related) meanings:

"accountable" - obliged to give a reckoning or explanation for actions or decisions
"responsible" - 1) obliged to carry out a duty or care for something
- 2) having to account for one's actions (ie = accountable)
- 3) being the cause of something
- 4) trustworthy
- 5) involving important duties

When I say, the government is responsible for the state of the UK's health system, I mean in senses 2) and 3) [although 1) and 5) do apply to their position], as follows:

2) they have to account for their actions and decisions (ie they are accountable), but also

3) they are the cause of the situation, in the following sense. They are not the cause of every single precise detail of the operation of the NHS (althought they are for PHE) - they didn't start with a blank sheet in 2010. However they are entirely the cause of the state of functionality of the UK's health system, that is what it does and how well it does it. If they wanted to increase capacity here, or add functionality here, or reduce this or that, then while they may not have had complete freedom in how they achieved it, they have had 10 years to achieve it. They are the cause of it whether they built new functionality, destroyed functionality or maintained functionality.

As I originally said, semantics, and as I later said, quibble elsewhere . This govt is accountable in my eyes for the outturn of the crisis- accountability encompasses responsibility as I said, albeit in a programmatic framing.

I was trying to let this go but sometimes I'm just overwhelmed with pedantry

Just wondering though, your definitions seem a bit idiosyncratic; how do you relate them to the dictionary definitions?

[Banquo]

Not really how I see it. I think both can be shared - you can have shared responsibility, you can have shared accountability. Of course it's much better - in both cases - when there is no sharing, or at least when one person or entity is ultimately responsible/accountable.


Yeah, I don't completely agree with those definitions. Per the dictionary, "accountable" has a narrow meaning. "Responsible" can mean accountable, but it can have several different (but related) meanings:

"accountable" - obliged to give a reckoning or explanation for actions or decisions
"responsible" - 1) obliged to carry out a duty or care for something
- 2) having to account for one's actions (ie = accountable)
- 3) being the cause of something
- 4) trustworthy
- 5) involving important duties

When I say, the government is responsible for the state of the UK's health system, I mean in senses 2) and 3) [although 1) and 5) do apply to their position], as follows:

2) they have to account for their actions and decisions (ie they are accountable), but also

3) they are the cause of the situation, in the following sense. They are not the cause of every single precise detail of the operation of the NHS (althought they are for PHE) - they didn't start with a blank sheet in 2010. However they are entirely the cause of the state of functionality of the UK's health system, that is what it does and how well it does it. If they wanted to increase capacity here, or add functionality here, or reduce this or that, then while they may not have had complete freedom in how they achieved it, they have had 10 years to achieve it. They are the cause of it whether they built new functionality, destroyed functionality or maintained functionality.

As I originally said, semantics, and as I later said, quibble elsewhere . This govt is accountable in my eyes for the outturn of the crisis- accountability encompasses responsibility as I said, albeit in a programmatic framing.

I was trying to let this go but sometimes I'm just overwhelmed with pedantry

Just wondering though, your definitions seem a bit idiosyncratic; how do you relate them to the dictionary definitions?

Standard stuff in my work and career.

[Which Tyler]

I was trying to let this go but sometimes I'm just overwhelmed with pedantry

Just wondering though, your definitions seem a bit idiosyncratic; how do you relate them to the dictionary definitions?

Define "idiosyncratic"...

[morepork]

That's just like, your opinion man.

[Galfon]

Baldness considered to be an indicator for severity of infection, linked to hormone levels..
Suppressant treatment could be considered to help fight the disease.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-heal ... ion-widget

So it appears if you're over-50, overweight, BAME, diabetic...and with hair-loss, stay extra-extra-safe.

[Stones of granite]

Baldness considered to be an indicator for severity of infection, linked to hormone levels..
Suppressant treatment could be considered to help fight the disease.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-heal ... ion-widget

So it appears if you're over-50, overweight, BAME, diabetic...and with hair-loss, stay extra-extra-safe.

You missed out poor. Admittedly, there is some overlap.

Drawing1.jpg

[Banquo]

Either the best or worst tour in history, depending on your viewpoint
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-52900959

[Digby]

Either the best or worst tour in history, depending on your viewpoint
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-52900959

The no beer answers that for me

[Galfon]

You missed out poor. Admittedly, there is some overlap.

Yes, a big factor; the density of housing in urban areas must make things nearly impossible once it gets a grip.

[Son of Mathonwy]

I was trying to let this go but sometimes I'm just overwhelmed with pedantry

Just wondering though, your definitions seem a bit idiosyncratic; how do you relate them to the dictionary definitions?

Define "idiosyncratic"...

I have my own idiosyncratic definition for it ...

[Son of Mathonwy]

As I originally said, semantics, and as I later said, quibble elsewhere . This govt is accountable in my eyes for the outturn of the crisis- accountability encompasses responsibility as I said, albeit in a programmatic framing.

I was trying to let this go but sometimes I'm just overwhelmed with pedantry

Just wondering though, your definitions seem a bit idiosyncratic; how do you relate them to the dictionary definitions?

Standard stuff in my work and career.

I think you may be using those terms in a way that's specific to your area of work; I don't think they quite have that meaning to most people.

If I started using "trivial" outside of maths or "coupon" outside of finance, that might be confusing too...

[Banquo]

I was trying to let this go but sometimes I'm just overwhelmed with pedantry

Just wondering though, your definitions seem a bit idiosyncratic; how do you relate them to the dictionary definitions?

Standard stuff in my work and career.

I think you may be using those terms in a way that's specific to your area of work; I don't think they quite have that meaning to most people.

If I started using "trivial" outside of maths or "coupon" outside of finance, that might be confusing too...

Can I take it you've never run a programme? I'm an exec director of an NHS service provider (CIC), having spent 30 + years in several big IT firms in different roles and sectors, so its hardly narrow. In any case, I started with what was my own personal view of how to describe the working parts and their 'roles', I also said it was a tad semantic, and you wanted to ramble on about it. I'm not in the slightest bit interested in what 'most people' would understand by the terms, even accepting your opinion on that- my teams certainly do, and I certainly am accountable for their actions ultimately.