America

[Mikey Brown]

One of those comments that is perhaps blindingly obvious but I just heard this put very well and hadn’t noticed many really talking about it.

Healthcare staff have been struggling to get their hands on anything even close to suitable in terms of PPE, to keep themselves and the general public safe from Covid. The speed and ease with which we see the police and armed forces out on the streets with helmets, masks, visors, guns, tanks, riot gear, helicopters, all that good shit, chemical weapons to use against your own citizens etc etc. It’s just not even comparable is it?

Protecting normal, shitty people who have to go to normal, shitty hospitals is pointless, who cares. But the police force is still useful to rich people, there’s not even a budget constraint for that.

[Digby]

There are some oddly large budgets for buying the police what many would describe as tanks and other questionable items. The actual policing budget I think just about everyone in the police would tell you is massively tight and a big part of the problem

[Mikey Brown]

Again, wouldn’t argue with that. Just seeing two freak scenarios like this happen together and the stark difference in response and general urgency is all i was getting at.

Being a police officer, like being a healthcare professional should be a very well paid job. It should be one of incredibly high standards of training, to go with the enormous responsibility. Despite how much I hate what I’m seeing I’m not suggesting that having worse paid police is going to help anything.

[Stom]

Again, wouldn’t argue with that. Just seeing two freak scenarios like this happen together and the stark difference in response and general urgency is all i was getting at.

Being a police officer, like being a healthcare professional should be a very well paid job. It should be one of incredibly high standards of training, to go with the enormous responsibility. Despite how much I hate what I’m seeing I’m not suggesting that having worse paid police is going to help anything.

Well indeed, but modern society has failed everyone in terms of pay and training for the most important jobs - teacher, doctor, nurse, police, utility engineers (who should be on the state payroll, but that's another argument)...

[Sandydragon]

One of those comments that is perhaps blindingly obvious but I just heard this put very well and hadn’t noticed many really talking about it.

Healthcare staff have been struggling to get their hands on anything even close to suitable in terms of PPE, to keep themselves and the general public safe from Covid. The speed and ease with which we see the police and armed forces out on the streets with helmets, masks, visors, guns, tanks, riot gear, helicopters, all that good shit, chemical weapons to use against your own citizens etc etc. It’s just not even comparable is it?

Protecting normal, shitty people who have to go to normal, shitty hospitals is pointless, who cares. But the police force is still useful to rich people, there’s not even a budget constraint for that.

Respirators would be fitted and issued early on in a career and then it’s just a case of changing the filters on a periodic basis.

Surgical masks etc are getting replaced so often that it’s causing a problem. The scale of turnover in medical kit is a real problem, but there should have been greater stocks to start with.

[Sandydragon]

There are some oddly large budgets for buying the police what many would describe as tanks and other questionable items. The actual policing budget I think just about everyone in the police would tell you is massively tight and a big part of the problem

A lot of us police departments got a big anti terrorist budget Following 9/11. Typically it had to be spend on equipment not on staff costs, infrastructure or on anything not related to terrorism. So armoured SWAT vehicles were suddenly available when there was no extra money for community programmes.

Priorities of the time I suppose but so little though on how to tackle the problem that actually kill large numbers of people, such as gang warfare etc.

[Sandydragon]

Again, wouldn’t argue with that. Just seeing two freak scenarios like this happen together and the stark difference in response and general urgency is all i was getting at.

Being a police officer, like being a healthcare professional should be a very well paid job. It should be one of incredibly high standards of training, to go with the enormous responsibility. Despite how much I hate what I’m seeing I’m not suggesting that having worse paid police is going to help anything.

Well indeed, but modern society has failed everyone in terms of pay and training for the most important jobs - teacher, doctor, nurse, police, utility engineers (who should be on the state payroll, but that's another argument)...

State payrolls are always behind the private sector. Most people who work in those roles aren’t there for the pay packet but some of the entry standards are awful.

I’d disagree about doctors though. Their career pay progression is very decent.

[Donny osmond]

Again, wouldn’t argue with that. Just seeing two freak scenarios like this happen together and the stark difference in response and general urgency is all i was getting at.

Being a police officer, like being a healthcare professional should be a very well paid job. It should be one of incredibly high standards of training, to go with the enormous responsibility. Despite how much I hate what I’m seeing I’m not suggesting that having worse paid police is going to help anything.

Well indeed, but modern society has failed everyone in terms of pay and training for the most important jobs - teacher, doctor, nurse, police, utility engineers (who should be on the state payroll, but that's another argument)...

State payrolls are always behind the private sector. Most people who work in those roles aren’t there for the pay packet but some of the entry standards are awful.

I’d disagree about doctors though. Their career pay progression is very decent.

In fairness, I couldn't complain about teacher's salary in Scotland at least, it's pretty decent although workload and career progression are both related issues.

Sent from my CPH1951 using Tapatalk

[cashead]

It's an interesting counterpoint. I wish someone would check his numbers (or I had the time to).

If true, Americans should be protesting even more against their brutal police, who may be the stormtroopers in a class war as well as a race war.

Thanks for reading and not dismissing. I have no idea about his numbers either, I just like how he's trying to see a bigger picture. I didn't read it like he's trying to excuse or deny police violence, just saying it's a more complex picture than most are allowing.

Sent from my CPH1951 using Tapatalk

And he is right. I posted below that police use of force protocols allow for a far higher level of police shootings than in any other democratic and wealthy country. Just as there are shootings of black men for no good reason; Latino and white men are also shot without any logical rationale. But the vast majority of all men who are shot by police are carrying firearms. That’s the root cause of the problem.

1. It's not just the shootings, but the day-to-day policing that is an issue, like constant stop-and-frisk searches. You're relying way too much on one aspect of the data available.

2. The data available itself deserves to be viewed with suspicion, and a likelihood in under-reporting from the police, with highly likely pressure on the officers themselves to obfuscate and under-report, with threats of violence and harassment (just ask Adrian Schoolcraft).

https://www.motherjones.com/crime-justi ... wire-nypd/

https://abcnews.go.com/US/latest-resear ... d=70994421

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/30/nyre ... -suit.html


Edit: Fuck, I used the wrong "you're." God damn it.

[Son of Mathonwy]

And he is right. I posted below that police use of force protocols allow for a far higher level of police shootings than in any other democratic and wealthy country. Just as there are shootings of black men for no good reason; Latino and white men are also shot without any logical rationale. But the vast majority of all men who are shot by police are carrying firearms. That’s the root cause of the problem.

It may not be the only root cause but it's certainly essential to the problem. Take away gun ownership and the police will far less reason to go in, guns at the ready, or shoot first think second. But it's in the constitution (at least it is interpreted as such) so it's not going away any time soon. And certainly not under the Repubicans.

Is the bigger part of the gun problem the police face legal guns? I'm all for reducing the range of guns available and restricting much, much further who can have even those, but I'm not sold it'd make the police's job much different for a long period of time.

I would add they need to look at police salaries, far too many officers are working a stupid number of hours and even 2+ jobs, and feeling undervalued over generations now. I'm sure there will be groups offering decent money at the local level, but with no factual basis to back it up and going simply with an assumption the police will largely be in that group whose salaries stagnated around 2007/8. It's not wholly straightforward because whilst they need more money we'd want a lot more from them in terms of quality/standard of work, but it does seem nuts to design a system that has pissed off, tired, stressed, poorly trained people given guns and being told to go out and police communities with in your face policing. Obviously in your face policing can mean a lot of things, many of them rather useful, but it shouldn't be a surprise when a lot of tired, stressed, over-worked, badly trained and not very bright to begin with individuals get it wrong. Society has some systemic problems.

I think guns in society are a vital part of the problem, but that's a moot point right now - they're not going anywhere. They're not going to be banned, they're not going to be drained from society, so the issue is academic.

This can only be tackled from different directions, such as: applying the law to the police, investigating fatalities independently and consistently, arranging cameras to film more of the police at work, training the police better, checking for psychological suitability as part of the training process, ensuring pay is reasonable etc

[Sandydragon]

Thanks for reading and not dismissing. I have no idea about his numbers either, I just like how he's trying to see a bigger picture. I didn't read it like he's trying to excuse or deny police violence, just saying it's a more complex picture than most are allowing.

Sent from my CPH1951 using Tapatalk

And he is right. I posted below that police use of force protocols allow for a far higher level of police shootings than in any other democratic and wealthy country. Just as there are shootings of black men for no good reason; Latino and white men are also shot without any logical rationale. But the vast majority of all men who are shot by police are carrying firearms. That’s the root cause of the problem.

1. It's not just the shootings, but the day-to-day policing that is an issue, like constant stop-and-frisk searches. Your relying way too much on one aspect of the data available.

2. The data available itself deserves to be viewed with suspicion, and a likelihood in under-reporting from the police, with highly likely pressure on the officers themselves to obfuscate and under-report, with threats of violence and harassment (just ask Adrian Schoolcraft).

https://www.motherjones.com/crime-justi ... wire-nypd/

https://abcnews.go.com/US/latest-resear ... d=70994421

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/30/nyre ... -suit.html

I do note below that young black men are more
Likely to have contact with police officers than other groups. The question is surely why, and much of that will be to do with poverty as well.

This problem is wider than just the police. Focusing on alleged police racism alone is not the answer.

[Sandydragon]

It may not be the only root cause but it's certainly essential to the problem. Take away gun ownership and the police will far less reason to go in, guns at the ready, or shoot first think second. But it's in the constitution (at least it is interpreted as such) so it's not going away any time soon. And certainly not under the Repubicans.

Is the bigger part of the gun problem the police face legal guns? I'm all for reducing the range of guns available and restricting much, much further who can have even those, but I'm not sold it'd make the police's job much different for a long period of time.

I would add they need to look at police salaries, far too many officers are working a stupid number of hours and even 2+ jobs, and feeling undervalued over generations now. I'm sure there will be groups offering decent money at the local level, but with no factual basis to back it up and going simply with an assumption the police will largely be in that group whose salaries stagnated around 2007/8. It's not wholly straightforward because whilst they need more money we'd want a lot more from them in terms of quality/standard of work, but it does seem nuts to design a system that has pissed off, tired, stressed, poorly trained people given guns and being told to go out and police communities with in your face policing. Obviously in your face policing can mean a lot of things, many of them rather useful, but it shouldn't be a surprise when a lot of tired, stressed, over-worked, badly trained and not very bright to begin with individuals get it wrong. Society has some systemic problems.

I think guns in society are a vital part of the problem, but that's a moot point right now - they're not going anywhere. They're not going to be banned, they're not going to be drained from society, so the issue is academic.

This can only be tackled from different directions, such as: applying the law to the police, investigating fatalities independently and consistently, arranging cameras to film more of the police at work, training the police better, checking for psychological suitability as part of the training process, ensuring pay is reasonable etc

In many cases where police in the US have used force that we in the UK feel to be inappropriate, it has been found to be proper in the local state. Don’t assume that the police are breaking the law (at least all the time).

[cashead]

And he is right. I posted below that police use of force protocols allow for a far higher level of police shootings than in any other democratic and wealthy country. Just as there are shootings of black men for no good reason; Latino and white men are also shot without any logical rationale. But the vast majority of all men who are shot by police are carrying firearms. That’s the root cause of the problem.

1. It's not just the shootings, but the day-to-day policing that is an issue, like constant stop-and-frisk searches. Your relying way too much on one aspect of the data available.

2. The data available itself deserves to be viewed with suspicion, and a likelihood in under-reporting from the police, with highly likely pressure on the officers themselves to obfuscate and under-report, with threats of violence and harassment (just ask Adrian Schoolcraft).

https://www.motherjones.com/crime-justi ... wire-nypd/

https://abcnews.go.com/US/latest-resear ... d=70994421

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/30/nyre ... -suit.html

I do note below that young black men are more
Likely to have contact with police officers than other groups. The question is surely why, and much of that will be to do with poverty as well.

This problem is wider than just the police. Focusing on alleged police racism alone is not the answer.

It's almost like these problems are institutional and systemic.

[Digby]

Just reading about the charges brought against Chauvin, and it would seem he's actually rather more fecked in Minnesota than many other states. He's falling short of 1st degree murder and I don't think they have the death penalty anyway (good for them imo) but he's now been charged with 2nd degree murder bumped up from 3rd degree which carries with it a requirement you intended to kill, whereas the 3rd degree murder charge 'merely' requires you did something so dangerous you can be charged with murder even absent a specific intent. That being the case the 2nd degree charge looks a hard one to make stick, but the prosecutors are getting around that by citing the murder as a felony murder, a murder which took place during a crime (presumably assault) and then with the crime leading to the death he's on the hook for 2nd degree murder. Most states probably wouldn't allow the loophole, charging someone with a murder felony where the underlying crime that led to murder was the crime of murder, but it's allowed in Minnesota. On the face of it that would seem to perpetuate the injustice, I don't think people will be too upset about Chauvin but the legal system shouldn't really work that way.

(Nb. I suppose he could still be on the hook for 1st degree if he did indeed know the victim and went to the scene with the intent to murder him, perhaps even engineering there would be a scene, just based on what's in the public domain it's hard to envisage premeditation)


Edit - Although here they cite what seem some valid concerns around the 3rd degree murder charge and touch on allowing a felony murder charge being rolled out as 2nd degree murder - https://www.dailysignal.com/2020/06/02/ ... yds-death/

[Sandydragon]

Proving first degree would be very hard unless some previous animosity could be proven. Even then it looks like a chance encounter. My understanding is that the third degree charges are still on the sheet as well which would seem to be a safer bet.

[Sandydragon]

1. It's not just the shootings, but the day-to-day policing that is an issue, like constant stop-and-frisk searches. Your relying way too much on one aspect of the data available.

2. The data available itself deserves to be viewed with suspicion, and a likelihood in under-reporting from the police, with highly likely pressure on the officers themselves to obfuscate and under-report, with threats of violence and harassment (just ask Adrian Schoolcraft).

https://www.motherjones.com/crime-justi ... wire-nypd/

https://abcnews.go.com/US/latest-resear ... d=70994421

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/30/nyre ... -suit.html

I do note below that young black men are more
Likely to have contact with police officers than other groups. The question is surely why, and much of that will be to do with poverty as well.

This problem is wider than just the police. Focusing on alleged police racism alone is not the answer.

It's almost like these problems are institutional and systemic.

Or it could be that high crime areas get policed in a certain way. Merely stating police racism is the easy way out of this problem.

[morepork]

I do note below that young black men are more
Likely to have contact with police officers than other groups. The question is surely why, and much of that will be to do with poverty as well.

This problem is wider than just the police. Focusing on alleged police racism alone is not the answer.

It's almost like these problems are institutional and systemic.

Or it could be that high crime areas get policed in a certain way. Merely stating police racism is the easy way out of this problem.

You are in denial baby. You are taking notes in a fire.

[Digby]

Proving first degree would be very hard unless some previous animosity could be proven. Even then it looks like a chance encounter. My understanding is that the third degree charges are still on the sheet as well which would seem to be a safer bet.

If third degree charges are still on the sheet it suggests the concerns expressed on 3rd degree murder pertaining more towards dui driving than a directed attack at an individual might not be correct. And yep, 1st degree seems very unlikely based on what's known at this point.

[Mikey Brown]

Fucking hell. Poor Robert Forbes is all I can say now.

It’s looking horribly like we have a brazen Nazi murdering a man by hitting him with his car, then being protected by the police while laughing and having a smoke at the side of the road?

I just can’t get my head around it. Once again this sounds too ridiculous to be the whole truth.

I’m trying to find something to suggest the version I’m hearing is biased or incorrect, but I’m not finding much.



Those are 14/88 tattoos on his shoulders if that’s not totally clear.

[Puja]

Just reading about the charges brought against Chauvin, and it would seem he's actually rather more fecked in Minnesota than many other states. He's falling short of 1st degree murder and I don't think they have the death penalty anyway (good for them imo) but he's now been charged with 2nd degree murder bumped up from 3rd degree which carries with it a requirement you intended to kill, whereas the 3rd degree murder charge 'merely' requires you did something so dangerous you can be charged with murder even absent a specific intent. That being the case the 2nd degree charge looks a hard one to make stick, but the prosecutors are getting around that by citing the murder as a felony murder, a murder which took place during a crime (presumably assault) and then with the crime leading to the death he's on the hook for 2nd degree murder. Most states probably wouldn't allow the loophole, charging someone with a murder felony where the underlying crime that led to murder was the crime of murder, but it's allowed in Minnesota. On the face of it that would seem to perpetuate the injustice, I don't think people will be too upset about Chauvin but the legal system shouldn't really work that way.

(Nb. I suppose he could still be on the hook for 1st degree if he did indeed know the victim and went to the scene with the intent to murder him, perhaps even engineering there would be a scene, just based on what's in the public domain it's hard to envisage premeditation)


Edit - Although here they cite what seem some valid concerns around the 3rd degree murder charge and touch on allowing a felony murder charge being rolled out as 2nd degree murder - https://www.dailysignal.com/2020/06/02/ ... yds-death/

That is an impressive use of legal cock-knockery. I hope they don't do that just to secure a second degree - it's all very well to bend the rules for something you agree with, but you've got to invoke the BNP rule for everything like that.

You'd have said second degree was a reasonable shout on the basis that the man himself warned of being unable to breathe, people around told Chauvin he'd gone limp, fellow officers said they couldn't get a pulse and should they change position, and Chauvin still kept his knee on there for another 3 minutes. Can't prove premeditation, but given he was warned this was killing Floyd and kept going, surely you can say there's intent.

Puja

[Puja]

Fucking hell. Poor Robert Forbes is all I can say now.

It’s looking horribly like we have a brazen Nazi murdering a man by hitting him with his car, then being protected by the police while laughing and having a smoke at the side of the road?

I just can’t get my head around it. Once again this sounds too ridiculous to be the whole truth.

I’m trying to find something to suggest the version I’m hearing is biased or incorrect, but I’m not finding much.



Those are 14/88 tattoos on his shoulders if that’s not totally clear.

Fucking hell. There's your perfect answer to Donny's twitter thread about "the myth of systemic racism". Black man may have possibly passed a dodgy $20 note - order him out of the car at gunpoint, handcuff him, and restrain him to death. White guy with 14/88 tattoos drives into a BLM protestor - no need for handcuffs, or even an arrest - the guy wasn't on the crosswalk, so no crime's been committed here and no investigation needed.

Puja

[Sandydragon]

It's almost like these problems are institutional and systemic.

Or it could be that high crime areas get policed in a certain way. Merely stating police racism is the easy way out of this problem.

You are in denial baby. You are taking notes in a fire.

No, I’m just refusing to jump on the easy answer bandwagon.

[Sandydragon]

Just reading about the charges brought against Chauvin, and it would seem he's actually rather more fecked in Minnesota than many other states. He's falling short of 1st degree murder and I don't think they have the death penalty anyway (good for them imo) but he's now been charged with 2nd degree murder bumped up from 3rd degree which carries with it a requirement you intended to kill, whereas the 3rd degree murder charge 'merely' requires you did something so dangerous you can be charged with murder even absent a specific intent. That being the case the 2nd degree charge looks a hard one to make stick, but the prosecutors are getting around that by citing the murder as a felony murder, a murder which took place during a crime (presumably assault) and then with the crime leading to the death he's on the hook for 2nd degree murder. Most states probably wouldn't allow the loophole, charging someone with a murder felony where the underlying crime that led to murder was the crime of murder, but it's allowed in Minnesota. On the face of it that would seem to perpetuate the injustice, I don't think people will be too upset about Chauvin but the legal system shouldn't really work that way.

(Nb. I suppose he could still be on the hook for 1st degree if he did indeed know the victim and went to the scene with the intent to murder him, perhaps even engineering there would be a scene, just based on what's in the public domain it's hard to envisage premeditation)


Edit - Although here they cite what seem some valid concerns around the 3rd degree murder charge and touch on allowing a felony murder charge being rolled out as 2nd degree murder - https://www.dailysignal.com/2020/06/02/ ... yds-death/

That is an impressive use of legal cock-knockery. I hope they don't do that just to secure a second degree - it's all very well to bend the rules for something you agree with, but you've got to invoke the BNP rule for everything like that.

You'd have said second degree was a reasonable shout on the basis that the man himself warned of being unable to breathe, people around told Chauvin he'd gone limp, fellow officers said they couldn't get a pulse and should they change position, and Chauvin still kept his knee on there for another 3 minutes. Can't prove premeditation, but given he was warned this was killing Floyd and kept going, surely you can say there's intent.

Puja

Agreed. Not enough for pre meditation but enough there to suggest that it wasn’t a total accident either.

[Sandydragon]

Fucking hell. Poor Robert Forbes is all I can say now.

It’s looking horribly like we have a brazen Nazi murdering a man by hitting him with his car, then being protected by the police while laughing and having a smoke at the side of the road?

I just can’t get my head around it. Once again this sounds too ridiculous to be the whole truth.

I’m trying to find something to suggest the version I’m hearing is biased or incorrect, but I’m not finding much.



Those are 14/88 tattoos on his shoulders if that’s not totally clear.

Fucking hell. There's your perfect answer to Donny's twitter thread about "the myth of systemic racism". Black man may have possibly passed a dodgy $20 note - order him out of the car at gunpoint, handcuff him, and restrain him to death. White guy with 14/88 tattoos drives into a BLM protestor - no need for handcuffs, or even an arrest - the guy wasn't on the crosswalk, so no crime's been committed here and no investigation needed.

Puja

Can’t find a definitive video of the incident. Eyewitness accounts differ and the police state they are still investigating. Probably should have handcuffed him at the time though, although arguably he was offering no resistance to the police, but the use of handcuffs seems to be the norm.

Meanwhile Moore has put a post on Facebook (since deleted) stating it was an accident.

Racist bastard most definitely, but I hope there is better evidence available.

[Sandydragon]

The two police officers who shoved an elderly man in Buffalo causing him to fall and hit his head have been charged with assault.