England side for the Barbarians game

[Stom]

Yes, Banquo and others have made that point. Jones is a stubborn individual and I can imagine him saying 'Player X was magnificent for England the last time he played and that's all that counts'. One snag for me is that if Saracens have zero club form to define their playing standard where does that leave others who are playing in the cut-throat minefield of regular premiership? Is club form irrelevant for a whole year (or two if covid restrictions curtail promotion from the championship) for everyone or just Saracens? Should good or bad form just disappear from consideration?

It strikes me that, rather than sharing their club's punishment, Saracens players are gaining an advantage over their rivals for international shirts. That might sit right with some but it definitely does not with me.

You're forgetting about an important factor here: this is an individual thing. It's all well and good saying all players should be treated equal, but a player who has been one of England's best (or their captain) and has a backlog of good performances (or petulant performances hyped into great ones) is going to get into the squad anyway. They can show their form on the training paddock.

And the Sarries in contention are:

Mako - probably the world's best LHP
George - one of the best hookers in the world
Itoje - one of the best locks in the world
Billy - a player unlike any other we have
Farrell - teacher's pet
Daly - one of our best all round rugby players

We're not talking about Dunn, Genge, Ewels, Ludlam and McConnochie here, we're talking about some of the best players on offer for us (and our captain).

You treat it on a situation by situation basis, don't treat all players as the same.

Yes but Stuart, Dunn, Hill, Willis, Simmonds, McConnochie don't get to go up against them 1 and 1 in a Premiership game and say to Eddie "look, I'm at least as good as this guy". It's just a weird dynamic.

It does sort of make you wonder how far the Saracens guys will be allowed to play under their normal level in the Championship. Sarries seem pretty great at motivating their players, but it might be funny if we start seeing clips surface of Owen Farrell getting gassed by a 43 year old Hugo Ellis every week.

lol, it would be funny if Farrell got shown up at Champ level.

But I think the rest of them will be fine. Though I'm getting more an more turned off from Billy and not because of his rugby...

[Puja]

Yes, Banquo and others have made that point. Jones is a stubborn individual and I can imagine him saying 'Player X was magnificent for England the last time he played and that's all that counts'. One snag for me is that if Saracens have zero club form to define their playing standard where does that leave others who are playing in the cut-throat minefield of regular premiership? Is club form irrelevant for a whole year (or two if covid restrictions curtail promotion from the championship) for everyone or just Saracens? Should good or bad form just disappear from consideration?

It strikes me that, rather than sharing their club's punishment, Saracens players are gaining an advantage over their rivals for international shirts. That might sit right with some but it definitely does not with me.

You're forgetting about an important factor here: this is an individual thing. It's all well and good saying all players should be treated equal, but a player who has been one of England's best (or their captain) and has a backlog of good performances (or petulant performances hyped into great ones) is going to get into the squad anyway. They can show their form on the training paddock.

And the Sarries in contention are:

Mako - probably the world's best LHP
George - one of the best hookers in the world
Itoje - one of the best locks in the world
Billy - a player unlike any other we have
Farrell - teacher's pet
Daly - one of our best all round rugby players

We're not talking about Dunn, Genge, Ewels, Ludlam and McConnochie here, we're talking about some of the best players on offer for us (and our captain).

You treat it on a situation by situation basis, don't treat all players as the same.

Yes but Stuart, Dunn, Hill, Willis, Simmonds, McConnochie don't get to go up against them 1 and 1 in a Premiership game and say to Eddie "look, I'm at least as good as this guy". It's just a weird dynamic.

It does sort of make you wonder how far the Saracens guys will be allowed to play under their normal level in the Championship. Sarries seem pretty great at motivating their players, but it might be funny if we start seeing clips surface of Owen Farrell getting gassed by a 43 year old Hugo Ellis every week.

Frankly, I think this leniency on picking Champ players opens up an opportunity for Hugo Ellis to finally be given his deserved role as England captain.

Puja

[Peej]

Warning noted.

Biggest shock is the news that Hugo Ellis is actually still playing pro rugby.

[Mikey Brown]

You're forgetting about an important factor here: this is an individual thing. It's all well and good saying all players should be treated equal, but a player who has been one of England's best (or their captain) and has a backlog of good performances (or petulant performances hyped into great ones) is going to get into the squad anyway. They can show their form on the training paddock.

And the Sarries in contention are:

Mako - probably the world's best LHP
George - one of the best hookers in the world
Itoje - one of the best locks in the world
Billy - a player unlike any other we have
Farrell - teacher's pet
Daly - one of our best all round rugby players

We're not talking about Dunn, Genge, Ewels, Ludlam and McConnochie here, we're talking about some of the best players on offer for us (and our captain).

You treat it on a situation by situation basis, don't treat all players as the same.

Yes but Stuart, Dunn, Hill, Willis, Simmonds, McConnochie don't get to go up against them 1 and 1 in a Premiership game and say to Eddie "look, I'm at least as good as this guy". It's just a weird dynamic.

It does sort of make you wonder how far the Saracens guys will be allowed to play under their normal level in the Championship. Sarries seem pretty great at motivating their players, but it might be funny if we start seeing clips surface of Owen Farrell getting gassed by a 43 year old Hugo Ellis every week.

lol, it would be funny if Farrell got shown up at Champ level.

But I think the rest of them will be fine. Though I'm getting more an more turned off from Billy and not because of his rugby...

The rest of who will be fine? The established Sarries players or the guys who want to prove they should be taking their spots, but we'll never see a direct comparison with?

Obviously EJ still sees them up close and will make his final decisions from that, but I don't see how you can think it's not all a bit weird.

[Epaminondas Pules]

It would be weird not to pick Itoje, Mako, Billy, Farrell, George and Daly.

[Stom]

Yes but Stuart, Dunn, Hill, Willis, Simmonds, McConnochie don't get to go up against them 1 and 1 in a Premiership game and say to Eddie "look, I'm at least as good as this guy". It's just a weird dynamic.

It does sort of make you wonder how far the Saracens guys will be allowed to play under their normal level in the Championship. Sarries seem pretty great at motivating their players, but it might be funny if we start seeing clips surface of Owen Farrell getting gassed by a 43 year old Hugo Ellis every week.

lol, it would be funny if Farrell got shown up at Champ level.

But I think the rest of them will be fine. Though I'm getting more an more turned off from Billy and not because of his rugby...

The rest of who will be fine? The established Sarries players or the guys who want to prove they should be taking their spots, but we'll never see a direct comparison with?

Obviously EJ still sees them up close and will make his final decisions from that, but I don't see how you can think it's not all a bit weird.

Are head to head matchups really worth that much? I mean, they're one off games, the players can't be directly against each other as they're part of a team performance...

I'm pretty sure the likes of Daly will be under pressure. Mako, Itoje and George...less so. And understandably, as they're world class. Billy...pressure on him is more likely to come from a potential change of system and his general form, tbh.

[Banquo]

It would be weird not to pick Itoje, Mako, Billy, (Farrell), George and Daly.

Especially as they will be fresh as daisies, relatively.

[Oakboy]

It would be weird not to pick Itoje, Mako, Billy, Farrell, George and Daly.

Weird in some respects, yes, but I wonder if doing without them would be that harmful in the long run from the viewpoints of individual performance, team spirit and structured development. It would be intriguing to put their inclusion to a vote of all EQP from other prem clubs or even all DORs.

[Epaminondas Pules]

It would be weird not to pick Itoje, Mako, Billy, Farrell, George and Daly.

Weird in some respects, yes, but I wonder if doing without them would be that harmful in the long run from the viewpoints of individual performance, team spirit and structured development. It would be intriguing to put their inclusion to a vote of all EQP from other prem clubs or even all DORs.

Weird in every respect as a competitive sport, that kind of hinges on winning.

I think it is pretty safe to say that if you removed them then it would most likely be harmful to performance as a whole. I don't think there are any teams that would be keen on not selecting their best players, let alone 6 of them. Players on the fringe of the squad, who are not as good, might be keen on them not being selected, though even then some might see that as a cheapened cap, rather than earned. Though it does depend on the criteria of their non-selection. If it is just about them being Championship players, that's one thing, but if it is about them being Saracens players during the obvious 'issues' regarding that club then we should also discount Earl, Malins, Isiekwe and Spencer.

[Mikey Brown]

lol, it would be funny if Farrell got shown up at Champ level.

But I think the rest of them will be fine. Though I'm getting more an more turned off from Billy and not because of his rugby...

The rest of who will be fine? The established Sarries players or the guys who want to prove they should be taking their spots, but we'll never see a direct comparison with?

Obviously EJ still sees them up close and will make his final decisions from that, but I don't see how you can think it's not all a bit weird.

Are head to head matchups really worth that much? I mean, they're one off games, the players can't be directly against each other as they're part of a team performance...

I'm pretty sure the likes of Daly will be under pressure. Mako, Itoje and George...less so. And understandably, as they're world class. Billy...pressure on him is more likely to come from a potential change of system and his general form, tbh.

I guess I didn't phrase that well. Not just facing them 1 on 1, but having everything you and your competitors do judged on the same standard as the guys who hold the shirts. Obviously in France things are different, but they would be playing against other established top level players.

I'm not arguing for them not to be selected, I just feel like there will have to be compromises somewhere in this selection process.

[Oakboy]

It would be weird not to pick Itoje, Mako, Billy, Farrell, George and Daly.

Weird in some respects, yes, but I wonder if doing without them would be that harmful in the long run from the viewpoints of individual performance, team spirit and structured development. It would be intriguing to put their inclusion to a vote of all EQP from other prem clubs or even all DORs.

Weird in every respect as a competitive sport, that kind of hinges on winning.

I think it is pretty safe to say that if you removed them then it would most likely be harmful to performance as a whole. I don't think there are any teams that would be keen on not selecting their best players, let alone 6 of them. Players on the fringe of the squad, who are not as good, might be keen on them not being selected, though even then some might see that as a cheapened cap, rather than earned. Though it does depend on the criteria of their non-selection. If it is just about them being Championship players, that's one thing, but if it is about them being Saracens players during the obvious 'issues' regarding that club then we should also discount Earl, Malins, Isiekwe and Spencer.

Your last point is significant, IMO. I'd have had that as the judgement criterion. Find another club, pemanently or on loan, and you are in the selection pot. Stay put, and you are not. I think that should have been part of the disciplinary verdict. It wasn't so it's academic now. I just think the game has lost credibility a a result.

[TheNomad]

I don't.

[Puja]

Right, so. Moving away from the ad nauseam discussion of 6 players from Saracens, are we due a new squad announcement this week now that there are Bath players available again, or is it waiting until next weekend when Brizzle will be finished as well?

Puja

[Epaminondas Pules]

There is supposed to be an updated squad announced for the second training camp from Thursday this week until Saturday, which could include Bath players. Then I think a further squad for the Baabaas game, and then the full squad post that.

[Puja]

So, who do we think from Bath for this training squad? I mean Dunn, Stuart, Ewels, Underhill, Spencer, Joseph, and Watson are almost certainly definites, and you'd suspect McConnochie and Cokanasiga will also be there. Room for Obano, Mercer, Redpath? De Glanville as an apprentice?

Puja

[16th man]

Has there been any announcements on what size of group they're wanting to bring together?

[Peej]

disappointing if Obano and Stuart aren't included

[fivepointer]

Sale and Worcester players to be considered also?

From the former T Curry is a cert, but what about Luke James? Ted Hill and Ollie Lawrence from Wuss, with maybe Schonert unless Kerrod has proven a surprising hit.

[Puja]

Sale and Worcester players to be considered also?

From the former T Curry is a cert, but what about Luke James? Ted Hill and Ollie Lawrence from Wuss, with maybe Schonert unless Kerrod has proven a surprising hit.

Good point - had forgotten about them!

If we're bringing together a larger group, then I'd say definitely yes to LJames as well as your names. I think BCurry is still injured unfortunately.

Puja

[Stom]

Do we need Schonert now? I'd rather pick Paul Hill...

[fivepointer]

It is the second three-day training camp for the squad ahead of the return of international rugby this autumn and will run from Thursday 15 until Saturday 17 October.
In addition, seven players will be in camp for reconditioning.

“We had a good three day camp last week working on the basics and developing our cohesion as a group," said Jones

“This week the focus is to raise the standard as we continue our preparation for the Italy game."

England have six upcoming fixtures this autumn starting with the uncapped Quilter Cup against the Barbarians (25 October, KO 2pm GMT, live on Sky Sports).

Forwards
Tom Curry, Sale Sharks
Alex Dombrandt, Harlequins*
Tom Dunn, Bath Rugby*
Ellis Genge, Leicester Tigers
Jamie George, Saracens
Joe Heyes, Leicester Tigers*
Ted Hill, Worcester Warriors
Maro Itoje, Saracens
Simon Kerrod, Harlequins*
Beno Obano, Bath Rugby*
David Ribbans, Northampton Saints*
Billy Vunipola, Saracens
Mark Wilson, Newcastle Falcons

Backs
Ali Crossdale, Saracens*
Elliot Daly, Saracens
Tom de Glanville, Bath Rugby*
Fraser Dingwall, Northampton Saints*
Owen Farrell, Saracens
George Ford, Leicester Tigers
Willi Heinz, Gloucester Rugby
Ollie Lawrence, Worcester Warriors*
Joe Marchant, Harlequins
Jonny May, Gloucester Rugby
Alex Mitchell, Northampton Saints*
Ollie Thorley, Gloucester Rugby*
Ben Youngs, Leicester Tigers

Reconditioning
Charlie Ewels, Bath Rugby
Jonathan Joseph, Bath Rugby
Joe Marler, Harlequins
Will Stuart, Bath Rugby
Sam Underhill, Bath Rugby
Mako Vunipola, Saracens
Anthony Watson, Bath Rugby

[Epaminondas Pules]

I’m surprised they’ve not brought Redpath in.

[Puja]

I’m surprised they’ve not brought Redpath in.

Me too. Might he be one of the ones down with Covid?

Good to see Heyes staying in and De Glanville getting a look at the top level.

Puja

[Mikey Brown]

I’m surprised they’ve not brought Redpath in.

I’m hoping he’s had an unexplainable change of allegiance.

[Puja]

Wait - there's no Ben Spencer in there.

He's either got an injury/Covid or Eddie agrees with me about putting time into Mitchell being better value than hoping Ben Spencer's having a good day rather than a bad one.

Puja