Autumn Squad

[Big D]

Reflecting on Townsend's selection for tonight's game keeps raising questions for me on his strategic thinking and abilities to manage his resources.

I can't see the logic in having Steele in the squad and then starting Price and having Horne on the bench. Can Steele play international level? We don't know. Will we find our tonight? No. If Price or Horne is crocked and out of the Wales game has Steele demonstrated he could cover? No.

Does Horne need to show he can start big games? Yes. Is this a chance to do that? Yes. Has Townsend had a look at that? No.

So if Price gets injured out of the Wales game we're going to have a starting scrumhalf that has limited experience of starting and a back-up with no international experience. Or SHC gets a nod and Steele is thanked for holding the tackle bags.

Similar story for whether Huw Jones can do a job at 15. I'd have given him a start but going 6/2 (why?) on the bench has scuppered that. If your picking on form, Jones is ahead of Kinghorn. Kinghorn is an ok wing but a poor fullback whose poor positional skills are even more exposed. His attacking game has been below average (admittedly outside the Edinburgh midfield ...) for the last 12 months. Looking at backups to Hogg should be a priority regardless (and especially now Maitland has been caught out on the razzle with Robshaw at the Fez Boys ...) but Townsend has passed that up. You might argue that VDM will benefit from having a familiar face at FB but if you are having to hand hold one of our outside backs against Georgia it doesn't suggest a positive mindset (and is contrary to be willing to go with Hastings covering midfield). VDW would surely benefit more from another in-form, positionally aware player in the back 3?

Without a doubt, Ritchie and Watson are our first choice 6 and 7 when fit. Ritchie needs the game time. Watson doesn't. Pick Cowan to play tonight cause he's not going to play next week unless Hamish is injured. Which he might be tonight. And we then are looking at starting Cowan with no international games in 4 years or a makeshift 7. If Thomson is behind Fagerson, Haining and Du Preez, why bother picking him in the squad?

Townsend's thinking is so hard to fathom that there is maybe a genius masterplan at work. He has got much to prove and I'm hoping this series will be the start of him demonstrating the skills of an international-level coach. For the good of Scottish rugby I hope he does that. I'm currently in hopes high/expectations low mode.

All that said, I want it all to go brilliantly tonight and a win against Wales next week would make me ecstatic.

Why do Scotland need Jones to do a job at 15? Hogg, Maitland and Kinghorn all have extensive experience there. We shouldn't let the Glasgow recruitment policies dictate national selection. Jones has yet to be tested in any meaningful club game there and Kinghorn as far as I can remember has never let Townsend down when selected. Kinghorn, Graham and VdM are a well established combination, nothing to do with hand holding, until Sunday that is the best back 3 combo we have in the squad.

If Watson goes down then Ritchie slides to 7, the same as he has done for club and country when required and Haining or Skinner can play 6.

You seem to be panicking a lot about injuries that may or may not happen. The guys haven't played that much rugby in the last few months so they need games.

[septic 9]

Why do Scotland need Jones to do a job at 15? Hogg, Maitland and Kinghorn all have extensive experience there. We shouldn't let the Glasgow recruitment policies dictate national selection. Jones has yet to be tested in any meaningful club game there and Kinghorn as far as I can remember has never let Townsend down when selected. Kinghorn, Graham and VdM are a well established combination, nothing to do with hand holding, until Sunday that is the best back 3 combo we have in the squad.

If Watson goes down then Ritchie slides to 7, the same as he has done for club and country when required and Haining or Skinner can play 6.

You seem to be panicking a lot about injuries that may or may not happen. The guys haven't played that much rugby in the last few months so they need games.

only bit of that I would question is Kinghorn. His form has been awful since we started playing rugby again, last night was no different, lots of poor decision making and execution. when everyone is fit he will at best get a bench spot now, due to being able to cover 15,11 and 14. Jones is on good form and covers 15, 12 and 13. A different set of flexible options but a set.
Maitland has quite possibly ruled himself out for a bit, at his age I doubt he is going to the next RWC.

Kinghorn will likely get the nod again next week (bench). But if he gets on and plays in a similar vein, and Jones does well enough for Glasgow tonight, Toonie needs to look at trying a different set and sending Kinghorn a clear message that he looks too cosy (he's been the same at edinburgh)

[Mikey Brown]

His kick off at the beginning was absolutely incredible. That would be such a weapon if he could do that consistently and his finish at the end was brilliant.

Shame he’s struggling to tie everything together at this level as there’s a seriously talented player in there. His distribution game has just completely disappeared. How do we do that to a player?

[septic 9]

His kick off at the beginning was absolutely incredible. That would be such a weapon if he could do that consistently

his restarts are top class, deep, high loads of hang time. As good as any, and I think he has been very consistent. Unfortunately for him (not that you we suggesting it) that is not enough, not being NFL we don't carry special teams just for kicking

[Big D]

Why do Scotland need Jones to do a job at 15? Hogg, Maitland and Kinghorn all have extensive experience there. We shouldn't let the Glasgow recruitment policies dictate national selection. Jones has yet to be tested in any meaningful club game there and Kinghorn as far as I can remember has never let Townsend down when selected. Kinghorn, Graham and VdM are a well established combination, nothing to do with hand holding, until Sunday that is the best back 3 combo we have in the squad.

If Watson goes down then Ritchie slides to 7, the same as he has done for club and country when required and Haining or Skinner can play 6.

You seem to be panicking a lot about injuries that may or may not happen. The guys haven't played that much rugby in the last few months so they need games.

only bit of that I would question is Kinghorn. His form has been awful since we started playing rugby again, last night was no different, lots of poor decision making and execution. when everyone is fit he will at best get a bench spot now, due to being able to cover 15,11 and 14. Jones is on good form and covers 15, 12 and 13. A different set of flexible options but a set.
Maitland has quite possibly ruled himself out for a bit, at his age I doubt he is going to the next RWC.

Kinghorn will likely get the nod again next week (bench). But if he gets on and plays in a similar vein, and Jones does well enough for Glasgow tonight, Toonie needs to look at trying a different set and sending Kinghorn a clear message that he looks too cosy (he's been the same at edinburgh)

I don't think it is him being "cosy", he has looked tentative and at times indecisive. That doesn't come from players resting on their laurels. There has been little to no suggestion of Kinghorn thinking he has made it or not trying to get better.

That being said, clearly it doesn't or should prevent him being dropped.

Jones has yet to play a meaningful big game at 15, he is also our best 13 IMO. Grigg and Harris haven't been terrible for Scotland but don't carry his threat. I'd rather see him start there than sit on the bench waiting for Hogg to get injured because that is the only way he is coming off or not starting these games.

[septic 9]

I don't think it is him being "cosy", he has looked tentative and at times indecisive. That doesn't come from players resting on their laurels. There has been little to no suggestion of Kinghorn thinking he has made it or not trying to get better.

That being said, clearly it doesn't or should prevent him being dropped.

Jones has yet to play a meaningful big game at 15, he is also our best 13 IMO. Grigg and Harris haven't been terrible for Scotland but don't carry his threat. I'd rather see him start there than sit on the bench waiting for Hogg to get injured because that is the only way he is coming off or not starting these games.

Kinghorn has looked cosy for edinburgh. He knows he has no realistic challenge for his spot. Some players need to be pushed for their place, My impression anyway

Jones is our best 13 in attack. There are good reasons he ended up 3d choice 13 at Glasgow for a while, none of them to do with attack. I watched him every game, really weak in defence, tackling and positionally (which TBF might have been to do with Rennie's idea of defence). If he has that sorted, fine, but it looks to me that his best, maybe only chance to do that is going to be moving there as a sub/positional switch during a game (Scotland or Glasgow game). He won't be waiting for Hogg to be injured any more than Kinghorn would be, both cover more than one position

[Mikey Brown]

Why do Scotland need Jones to do a job at 15? Hogg, Maitland and Kinghorn all have extensive experience there. We shouldn't let the Glasgow recruitment policies dictate national selection. Jones has yet to be tested in any meaningful club game there and Kinghorn as far as I can remember has never let Townsend down when selected. Kinghorn, Graham and VdM are a well established combination, nothing to do with hand holding, until Sunday that is the best back 3 combo we have in the squad.

If Watson goes down then Ritchie slides to 7, the same as he has done for club and country when required and Haining or Skinner can play 6.

You seem to be panicking a lot about injuries that may or may not happen. The guys haven't played that much rugby in the last few months so they need games.

only bit of that I would question is Kinghorn. His form has been awful since we started playing rugby again, last night was no different, lots of poor decision making and execution. when everyone is fit he will at best get a bench spot now, due to being able to cover 15,11 and 14. Jones is on good form and covers 15, 12 and 13. A different set of flexible options but a set.
Maitland has quite possibly ruled himself out for a bit, at his age I doubt he is going to the next RWC.

Kinghorn will likely get the nod again next week (bench). But if he gets on and plays in a similar vein, and Jones does well enough for Glasgow tonight, Toonie needs to look at trying a different set and sending Kinghorn a clear message that he looks too cosy (he's been the same at edinburgh)

I don't think it is him being "cosy", he has looked tentative and at times indecisive. That doesn't come from players resting on their laurels. There has been little to no suggestion of Kinghorn thinking he has made it or not trying to get better.

That being said, clearly it doesn't or should prevent him being dropped.

Jones has yet to play a meaningful big game at 15, he is also our best 13 IMO. Grigg and Harris haven't been terrible for Scotland but don't carry his threat. I'd rather see him start there than sit on the bench waiting for Hogg to get injured because that is the only way he is coming off or not starting these games.

I think I agree. Whilst he can be ropey in defence and seem like his brain has switched off at times, Jones is just too good going forwards for us to ignore, surely. Get him on the end of the Russell-Vakatawa pass in that channel.

We just have to try and rely on the calmness and reading of the game that Johnson (and hopefully Hutchinson) can provide along side.

Well that would be my thought if I had any sense that Harris hasn’t already sewn himself in as defensive leader at 13, to the coaches more than many others but still.

[Big D]

I don't think it is him being "cosy", he has looked tentative and at times indecisive. That doesn't come from players resting on their laurels. There has been little to no suggestion of Kinghorn thinking he has made it or not trying to get better.

That being said, clearly it doesn't or should prevent him being dropped.

Jones has yet to play a meaningful big game at 15, he is also our best 13 IMO. Grigg and Harris haven't been terrible for Scotland but don't carry his threat. I'd rather see him start there than sit on the bench waiting for Hogg to get injured because that is the only way he is coming off or not starting these games.

Kinghorn has looked cosy for edinburgh. He knows he has no realistic challenge for his spot. Some players need to be pushed for their place, My impression anyway

Jones is our best 13 in attack. There are good reasons he ended up 3d choice 13 at Glasgow for a while, none of them to do with attack. I watched him every game, really weak in defence, tackling and positionally (which TBF might have been to do with Rennie's idea of defence). If he has that sorted, fine, but it looks to me that his best, maybe only chance to do that is going to be moving there as a sub/positional switch during a game (Scotland or Glasgow game). He won't be waiting for Hogg to be injured any more than Kinghorn would be, both cover more than one position

This is true but if Jones in on the bench then really Harris has to start as he is the only one who would have spent time on the wing because Hogg ain't moving. Thus far Townsend has mostly ensured there is someone who has played wing is available should they need to.

Part of the reason why I am mostly against throwing Jones in at 15 this year is he hasn't been tested. Poor defence at 13 is almost certainly a big problem at 15. From what I have seen, no 10 on the opposition has really given him a challenge in terms of positional awareness. After something like 5/6 games there if he gets badly exposed there for Scotland, as he did a little when Townsend tried him at 12 it could be hard for him to come back from.

With a new defence coach who by all accounts is really clear and provides easy to follow gameplans it should help Jones. Harris and Grigg aren't the mid to longer term answer there and the hopes are firmly on Hutchison (who is now playing 12) or maybe even a resurgent Bennett if he ever gets close to what be was and deals with Edinburghs boring style.

[francoisfou]

I firmly believe that you've got your best chance in years of turning the Welsh over next Saturday at Parc y Scarlets.
On last night's evidence, the Welsh defence is leaky and Dupont and Ntamack expoited the gaps.
How strong is your front row? Can they get the better of the Welsh?

[General Zod]

Mark Palmer in the times reckons Fagerson (8) will be injured for the wales game.

I’d probably expect Haining in there if that’s true.

[septic 9]

I firmly believe that you've got your best chance in years of turning the Welsh over next Saturday at Parc y Scarlets.
On last night's evidence, the Welsh defence is leaky and Dupont and Ntamack expoited the gaps.
How strong is your front row? Can they get the better of the Welsh?

if the Welsh front row are reffed properly, our front row is easily a match in the set piece and far better around the park.
Wales will regroup and won't be as poor as last night, won't be as leaky, and crucially won't be facing that big athletic French back row who are a bit good, who were the biggest difference between the 2 teams. But we should have a decent shot at this one

[Big D]

I firmly believe that you've got your best chance in years of turning the Welsh over next Saturday at Parc y Scarlets.
On last night's evidence, the Welsh defence is leaky and Dupont and Ntamack expoited the gaps.
How strong is your front row? Can they get the better of the Welsh?

For me out two props are good enough to view the next two blocks of international games as Lions auditions. Sutherland given his horrific injury has been unbelievable for Scotland, again relative to where he was with that injury.

Fagerson is gradually becoming the prop we hoped he would. Getting better all the time.

[Cameo]

Just watched that Wales France game. Wales will be better for that and still have lots of turnover threats in defence. Clean out work will have to be top notch.

Other main takeaway was that France have loads of top players who would get crucified on here if they were Scottish. People would be calling for Ntamack and DuPont's heads if they made some of the mistakes for Scotland that they do for France. Very good players but a reminder that you have to take the rough with the smooth with attacking players sometimes.

Only thing I'll say on the 13 debate is that, with his talent, something has gone seriously wrong with the development of Jones for us to end up with Harris ahead of him. Harris is okay but Jones was/is a real game changer. I have liked him at 15 but realistically we have to play him at 13 for Glasgow and solve any defensive issues.

[ARM]

Another voice here a bit concerned about Kinghorn’s performance. The final try shouldn’t put gloss on the fact that he continues to make bafflingly poor decisions in the red zone - often misses the final pass either by not seeing it or through poor execution. He’s got the raw materials but the decision making is not there. Fortunately we have Hogg and now DvDM that mean this is less of an immediate problem.

I’m also more than a little confused about Maitland.

1) Why was he allowed on the Ba-Bas jolly in the first place? If he was going to be part of the Scotland squad in the next few games then would he not have been better off training with the Scotland team and in the anti-infection bubble than mixing with players from multiple clubs/nations?

2) As for the decision to go out on the lash given his responsibility to the BaBas and also Scotland - well what can you say? I can’t see him featuring for a few games.

[septic 9]

Just watched that Wales France game. Wales will be better for that and still have lots of turnover threats in defence. Clean out work will have to be top notch.

Other main takeaway was that France have loads of top players who would get crucified on here if they were Scottish. People would be calling for Ntamack and DuPont's heads if they made some of the mistakes for Scotland that they do for France. Very good players but a reminder that you have to take the rough with the smooth with attacking players sometimes.

Only thing I'll say on the 13 debate is that, with his talent, something has gone seriously wrong with the development of Jones for us to end up with Harris ahead of him. Harris is okay but Jones was/is a real game changer. I have liked him at 15 but realistically we have to play him at 13 for Glasgow and solve any defensive issues.

if it was as simple as "solve the defensive issues" we would not be having this discussion in any way shape or form. And that was no doubt confidence damaging for him - from top of the world Lions certainty to 3rd choice for Glasgow. Jones had loads of chances for Glasgow and Scotland before he was dropped for both. Luckily for us and him, he has almost by accident of covid been given a chance to restore his confidence, and isn't he just grabbing it?

He should bench in preference to Kinghorn this week. A great chance for him to restore his Scotland credentials, and a chance for Kinghorn to reflect on what is going wrong for him, what he needs to do to get back. Win win for me

[septic 9]

Another voice here a bit concerned about Kinghorn’s performance. The final try shouldn’t put gloss on the fact that he continues to make bafflingly poor decisions in the red zone - often misses the final pass either by not seeing it or through poor execution. He’s got the raw materials but the decision making is not there. Fortunately we have Hogg and now DvDM that mean this is less of an immediate problem.

I’m also more than a little confused about Maitland.

1) Why was he allowed on the Ba-Bas jolly in the first place? If he was going to be part of the Scotland squad in the next few games then would he not have been better off training with the Scotland team and in the anti-infection bubble than mixing with players from multiple clubs/nations?

2) As for the decision to go out on the lash given his responsibility to the BaBas and also Scotland - well what can you say? I can’t see him featuring for a few games.

such a good post I could have written it

Not a jot to disagree with

[switchskier]

I can see the argument for Jones over Kinghorn on the bench as 13/15 cover, but would be a little worried about pitching him into an international against Dan Biggar after two starts at the position. Give him a little time to get comfortable and give him a fighting chance if making it work.

Let's also remember that Blair Kinghorn is only 23. High went through a phase where there was some tape on him and the things that came easy because of his physical gifts weren't coming off anymore, making him a bit more tentative and uncertain. Sometimes young players just need to play through it.

[septic 9]

I can see the argument for Jones over Kinghorn on the bench as 13/15 cover, but would be a little worried about pitching him into an international against Dan Biggar after two starts at the position. Give him a little time to get comfortable and give him a fighting chance if making it work.

Let's also remember that Blair Kinghorn is only 23. High went through a phase where there was some tape on him and the things that came easy because of his physical gifts weren't coming off anymore, making him a bit more tentative and uncertain. Sometimes young players just need to play through it.

Kinghorn can play through it for Edinburgh. Scotland team is not there to give game time for Pro team out of form players.

That was Jones 5th consecutive start at 15. Much to everyone's surprise, he's barely put a foot wrong. No obvious defensive issues, good under the high ball, cutting great attacking lines and the big surprise a decent kicking game with a pretty big boot

Not all against the very best opposition, including twice against Edinburgh when VDW hit a few high to test him. He's making a strong case.

Back to Kinghorn, if Cockerill had any sense he's be telling Kinghorn his place at Edinburgh is now under threat from Jack Blain. Competition for places seems to work at other clubs. Whereas at Edinburgh, I'll leave it there

[Soapy]

Kinghorn can play through it for Edinburgh. Scotland team is not there to give game time for Pro team out of form players.

That was Jones 5th consecutive start at 15. Much to everyone's surprise, he's barely put a foot wrong. No obvious defensive issues, good under the high ball, cutting great attacking lines and the big surprise a decent kicking game with a pretty big boot

Not all against the very best opposition, including twice against Edinburgh when VDW hit a few high to test him. He's making a strong case.

Back to Kinghorn, if Cockerill had any sense he's be telling Kinghorn his place at Edinburgh is now under threat from Jack Blain. Competition for places seems to work at other clubs. Whereas at Edinburgh, I'll leave it there

Have to agree with that. Kinghorn needs to go back to Edinburgh and focus on some basic skills and his concentration levels.

There is a similar argument for Hastings IMO but he has more credit in the bank and the Russell affair pushed him into starting much earlier than ideal. However, by comparison J Simmonds and C Sheedy are the same age as Hastings but manage and balance their game so much better. TBF, Hastings is having to learn and perform through a transition phase at both club and international level. Nonetheless, it is hard for Glasgow and Scotland to be consistently effective in the midfield - no matter who are selected at 12 and 13 - without a decisive decision-maker at 10. That's where Hastings really needs to look to improve.

[Cameo]

Jones had loads of chances for Glasgow and Scotland before he was dropped for both.

That's the only bit I'm not really sure on. It never felt to me like he had a run with Glasgow. No onus on Scotland to give him that run and injuries didn't help but his time at Glasgow has seemed very stop start.

Soapy - not sure I agree re Hastings. He goes through phases a little but I think he is just a different player than Sheedy or Simmonds. They have talent all around them and dominant packs which suits their styles as organisers (who can also do more). There is more of an onus on Hastings to create himself and he often does. It also leads him down blind alleys.

[Soapy]

Soapy - not sure I agree re Hastings. He goes through phases a little but I think he is just a different player than Sheedy or Simmonds. They have talent all around them and dominant packs which suits their styles as organisers (who can also do more). There is more of an onus on Hastings to create himself and he often does. It also leads him down blind alleys.

I can see some of that perspective but there are numerous phases in Glasgow games when the team is dominating and Hastings handicaps the attack by trying to do too much himself or dithering with the ball in his hands. Often he ends up blind alleys because he's taken too long making his decision and runs out of options.

I see potential for Hastings to be a reasonable international player but think there are fundamental aspects of his game that he needs to improve. As Scotland try to develop a more consistent and resilient level of performance I'd prefer Weir as backup to Russell but realise that Gregor will see it differently.

[Mikey Brown]

The problem is there's so many things he does well too, it's like he isn't even fazed by international rugby and is already a bit too cocky. It's like he avoids any of the maverick talk/criticism because everyone's too busy levelling that at Russell.

His tackling is a big concern though. He has a good instinct of keeping himself on his feet and organising the line, not buried in rucks, but he is often either too passive because of it or goes in high and reckless. Sometimes he'll strip the ball, often he'll give away a penalty.

The problem with Weir is if we can provide that same vigour in attack if he has to come on after 1 minute.

[Soapy]

The problem is there's so many things he does well too, it's like he isn't even fazed by international rugby and is already a bit too cocky. It's like he avoids any of the maverick talk/criticism because everyone's too busy levelling that at Russell.

His tackling is a big concern though. He has a good instinct of keeping himself on his feet and organising the line, not buried in rucks, but he is often either too passive because of it or goes in high and reckless. Sometimes he'll strip the ball, often he'll give away a penalty.

The problem with Weir is if we can provide that same vigour in attack if he has to come on after 1 minute.

Yep. That's fair. It's an impossible balance isn't it? Although I'd prefer to have Weir on the pitch (ahead of Russell too!) if a drop goal in the last minute is going to win it on Sat ...

The best solution is for Hastings to develop himself into a steadier player with natural attacking abilities rather than a poor version of Russell.

[septic 9]

I really wonder sometimes if some folk on here watch rugby at all.
Hastings is a good defender, as is Russell. Attempts to rip are when the ball carrier is held up or double tackled.

He is in a good sense a flat track bully. doing what he does against better teams is of course much harder

[Mikey Brown]

You haven’t watched Hastings repeatedly go high in contact and sometimes get shrugged off or give away needless pens?

Who even said Russell is a bad defender?