The 2020 Rugby Cha- Tri Nations, Sort Of... Thread

[Puja]

Well, that's a turnup for the books. What happened? And is New Zealand now in mourning after your worst losing streak in about 8 years?

Puja

[morepork]

Bullied 2 weeks in a row. Fozzie, what have you done...

[paddy no 11]

Matera and kremmer just in destruction mode, Montoya and the centres excellent and Sanchez ran the show

The only thing nz appear to be working on is winning restarts, will be changing coach next year

[Lizard]

Argentina were very good. NZ looked disinterested and rudderless.

NZRU has to leave the old bottle of brandy and loaded revolver in his study. On-field leadership also needs to be looked at.

I'm pleased for Argentina though, they deserved it. It's a shame it was in front of a few thousand Aussies and a couple of Argie backpackers, rather than 50,000 Pumas fans at La Plata.

So let's run through it:
First loss to Argentina
Lowest ranked team to beat NZ
Sends NZ to its lowest point ever in the rankings (4th, I think)
First consecutive losses since 2011 (which was in TRC leading up to a RWC win, so almost excusable)
First consecutive losses involving a non-AUS/SAF team since RWC1999 (France SF/SA Bronze final)
First consecutive losses not involving the Springboks since 1993-94 (Eng, Fra, Fra)

So this is pretty bad. Given the quality of the opposition, it's getting towards the nadir of 1998's Five-losses-in-a-row, under Hart/Randell. If we don't smash the Pumas in a fortnight, we've got real problems.

[Puja]

Argentina were very good. NZ looked disinterested and rudderless.

NZRU has to leave the old bottle of brandy and loaded revolver in his study. On-field leadership also needs to be looked at.

I'm pleased for Argentina though, they deserved it. It's a shame it was in front of a few thousand Aussies and a couple of Argie backpackers, rather than 50,000 Pumas fans at La Plata.

So let's run through it:
First loss to Argentina
Lowest ranked team to beat NZ
Sends NZ to its lowest point ever in the rankings (4th, I think)
First consecutive losses since 2011 (which was in TRC leading up to a RWC win, so almost excusable)
First consecutive losses involving a non-AUS/SAF team since RWC1999 (France SF/SA Bronze final)
First consecutive losses not involving the Springboks since 1993-94 (Eng, Fra, Fra)

So this is pretty bad. Given the quality of the opposition, it's getting towards the nadir of 1998's Five-losses-in-a-row, under Hart/Randell. If we don't smash the Pumas in a fortnight, we've got real problems.

You're still 3rd, if I'm calculating correctly. You're a good long distance away from France and Ireland (who are neck and neck in 4th and 5th) and won't drop below either of them unless you lose by >16pts against Argentina next time out.

Puja

[Lizard]

Argentina were very good. NZ looked disinterested and rudderless.

NZRU has to leave the old bottle of brandy and loaded revolver in his study. On-field leadership also needs to be looked at.

I'm pleased for Argentina though, they deserved it. It's a shame it was in front of a few thousand Aussies and a couple of Argie backpackers, rather than 50,000 Pumas fans at La Plata.

So let's run through it:
First loss to Argentina
Lowest ranked team to beat NZ

Cane as captain is not the problem. It's unfair to put everything on him, since captaincy only works best when said captain is surrounded by a core group of on-field leaders. You look at, say, John Eales, and he had guys like David Wilson, Toutai Kefu, Gregan and Tim Horan around him. Martin Johnson, and he had Wilkinson, Dawson, Hill, Back, Dallaglio, Greenwood and Robinson. McCaw was surrounded by guys like Mealamu, Thorn, Kaino, Whitelock, Read, Weepu, Carter, Nonu and C Smith across two World Cups.

So, who was helping Cane out there? The issue was that the guys who should have been backing him were too busy being anonymous (that's you, Whitelock) or getting suckered into handbags (that's you, Coles).


As for your second point, Argentina had been getting close in the 9 seasons since being included in the TNs set-up, so it was bound to happen eventually. What annoys me isn't that the ABs lost, but the manner in which they did it. Just completely limp, and clueless.

Agree on all fronts. Whitelock in particular should have done more.

It's important not to sell Argentina short. They drew with us as long ago as 1985. They have multiple victories over every other major nation (SA 3, Eng 4, Wales 5, Aus 6, Ire 6, Sco 9, Fra 14, Ita 16). It's still disappointing to have lost the two outlier markers we had of 0 losses to Ireland and Argentina in relatively quick succession. There's only Scotland left now. After that, we will be in the same club as England being the only nations to have never been beaten by a non-top tier nation (e.g. Japan, Pacific Islands, USA, Canada, Namibia, Romania).

Probably good for rugby as a whole, I suppose.

[Lizard]

Argentina were very good. NZ looked disinterested and rudderless.

NZRU has to leave the old bottle of brandy and loaded revolver in his study. On-field leadership also needs to be looked at.

I'm pleased for Argentina though, they deserved it. It's a shame it was in front of a few thousand Aussies and a couple of Argie backpackers, rather than 50,000 Pumas fans at La Plata.

So let's run through it:
First loss to Argentina
Lowest ranked team to beat NZ
Sends NZ to its lowest point ever in the rankings (4th, I think)
First consecutive losses since 2011 (which was in TRC leading up to a RWC win, so almost excusable)
First consecutive losses involving a non-AUS/SAF team since RWC1999 (France SF/SA Bronze final)
First consecutive losses not involving the Springboks since 1993-94 (Eng, Fra, Fra)

So this is pretty bad. Given the quality of the opposition, it's getting towards the nadir of 1998's Five-losses-in-a-row, under Hart/Randell. If we don't smash the Pumas in a fortnight, we've got real problems.

You're still 3rd, if I'm calculating correctly. You're a good long distance away from France and Ireland (who are neck and neck in 4th and 5th) and won't drop below either of them unless you lose by >16pts against Argentina next time out.

Puja

Correct, thanks. Just our equal lowest position then.

[Cameo]

The strange thing was that it didn't come against the run of play at all. Argentina just contained NZ very well. At the moment it seems like first up tackling is absolutely key against these ABs. Get that right on people like Clarke and you have a chance.

I'd still expect a comfortable win next time. Looking forward to Argentina Australia though.

Also, have Argentina been largely in camp? Is there a bit of a Japan effect?

[Spiffy]

Those Argie flankers were unbelievable. Tremendous performance.
NZ should just drop the face-slappers for the next game (or more.) They behaved like a couple of girly men who should not be wearing the AB jersey.

[morepork]

Those Argie flankers were unbelievable. Tremendous performance.
NZ should just drop the face-slappers for the next game (or more.) They behaved like a couple of girly men who should not be wearing the AB jersey.

Kieth Quinn?

[Numbers]

Argentina were very good. NZ looked disinterested and rudderless.

NZRU has to leave the old bottle of brandy and loaded revolver in his study. On-field leadership also needs to be looked at.

I'm pleased for Argentina though, they deserved it. It's a shame it was in front of a few thousand Aussies and a couple of Argie backpackers, rather than 50,000 Pumas fans at La Plata.

So let's run through it:
First loss to Argentina
Lowest ranked team to beat NZ

Cane as captain is not the problem. It's unfair to put everything on him, since captaincy only works best when said captain is surrounded by a core group of on-field leaders. You look at, say, John Eales, and he had guys like David Wilson, Toutai Kefu, Gregan and Tim Horan around him. Martin Johnson, and he had Wilkinson, Dawson, Hill, Back, Dallaglio, Greenwood and Robinson. McCaw was surrounded by guys like Mealamu, Thorn, Kaino, Whitelock, Read, Weepu, Carter, Nonu and C Smith across two World Cups.

So, who was helping Cane out there? The issue was that the guys who should have been backing him were too busy being anonymous (that's you, Whitelock) or getting suckered into handbags (that's you, Coles).


As for your second point, Argentina had been getting close in the 9 seasons since being included in the TNs set-up, so it was bound to happen eventually. What annoys me isn't that the ABs lost, but the manner in which they did it. Just completely limp, and clueless.

Agree on all fronts. Whitelock in particular should have done more.

It's important not to sell Argentina short. They drew with us as long ago as 1985. They have multiple victories over every other major nation (SA 3, Eng 4, Wales 5, Aus 6, Ire 6, Sco 9, Fra 14, Ita 16). It's still disappointing to have lost the two outlier markers we had of 0 losses to Ireland and Argentina in relatively quick succession. There's only Scotland left now. After that, we will be in the same club as England being the only nations to have never been beaten by a non-top tier nation (e.g. Japan, Pacific Islands, USA, Canada, Namibia, Romania).

Probably good for rugby as a whole, I suppose.

Really, they beat Ireland and Scotland last year.

[Spiffy]

Those Argie flankers were unbelievable. Tremendous performance.
NZ should just drop the face-slappers for the next game (or more.) They behaved like a couple of girly men who should not be wearing the AB jersey.

Kieth Quinn?

Not quite. It's OK to weep - that's harmless, but not to bitch-slap your opponents, which is terribly bad form.

[Lizard]

Cane as captain is not the problem. It's unfair to put everything on him, since captaincy only works best when said captain is surrounded by a core group of on-field leaders. You look at, say, John Eales, and he had guys like David Wilson, Toutai Kefu, Gregan and Tim Horan around him. Martin Johnson, and he had Wilkinson, Dawson, Hill, Back, Dallaglio, Greenwood and Robinson. McCaw was surrounded by guys like Mealamu, Thorn, Kaino, Whitelock, Read, Weepu, Carter, Nonu and C Smith across two World Cups.

So, who was helping Cane out there? The issue was that the guys who should have been backing him were too busy being anonymous (that's you, Whitelock) or getting suckered into handbags (that's you, Coles).


As for your second point, Argentina had been getting close in the 9 seasons since being included in the TNs set-up, so it was bound to happen eventually. What annoys me isn't that the ABs lost, but the manner in which they did it. Just completely limp, and clueless.

Agree on all fronts. Whitelock in particular should have done more.

It's important not to sell Argentina short. They drew with us as long ago as 1985. They have multiple victories over every other major nation (SA 3, Eng 4, Wales 5, Aus 6, Ire 6, Sco 9, Fra 14, Ita 16). It's still disappointing to have lost the two outlier markers we had of 0 losses to Ireland and Argentina in relatively quick succession. There's only Scotland left now. After that, we will be in the same club as England being the only nations to have never been beaten by a non-top tier nation (e.g. Japan, Pacific Islands, USA, Canada, Namibia, Romania).

Probably good for rugby as a whole, I suppose.

Really, they beat Ireland and Scotland last year.

They may be performing well now, but historically they fit in that bunch. You could have said similar about Samoa in mid-late '90s. My point is that NZ and Eng have resisted these teams even at their historic best (or maybe haven't played them enough...)

[Lizard]

Agree on all fronts. Whitelock in particular should have done more.

It's important not to sell Argentina short. They drew with us as long ago as 1985. They have multiple victories over every other major nation (SA 3, Eng 4, Wales 5, Aus 6, Ire 6, Sco 9, Fra 14, Ita 16). It's still disappointing to have lost the two outlier markers we had of 0 losses to Ireland and Argentina in relatively quick succession. There's only Scotland left now. After that, we will be in the same club as England being the only nations to have never been beaten by a non-top tier nation (e.g. Japan, Pacific Islands, USA, Canada, Namibia, Romania).

Probably good for rugby as a whole, I suppose.

Really, they beat Ireland and Scotland last year.

They may be performing well now, but historically they fit in that bunch. You could have said similar about Samoa in mid-late '90s. My point is that NZ and Eng have resisted these teams even at their historic best (or maybe haven't played them enough...)

I've checked. England beat Samoa 27-9 in late 1995 and in Samoa's next match (in 1996) NZ beat them 51-10. This was shortly Samoa's wins over Wales (1994) and QF run at RWC95, and only months before it toppled Ireland in its very next test.

NZ (69-31) and England (35-15) also beat Japan in consecutive matches in November 2018.

[morepork]

This is going to be quite a dog fight. RG are going to be fired up to back it up and I’m not convinced they can’t.

[paddy no 11]

Argentina creating very little, cut out the pens and surely beat them

[Lizard]

The thot plickens!

NZ: played 3, 6 pts
Arg: played 2, 6 ps
Aus: Played 3, 6 pts

It's anyone's tournament.

[Puja]

The thot plickens!

NZ: played 3, 6 pts
Arg: played 2, 6 ps
Aus: Played 3, 6 pts

It's anyone's tournament.

What's the tie-breaker if they're equal on points? Head-to-head or just points difference?

Puja

[Lizard]

Assuming this 3N uses the same rules as TRC did:

1st tie-breaker: most match wins overall (all teams currently on 1 win).
2nd: most match wins against the other team/s tied on the same points.
3rd: overall points difference (NZ +26, Arg +10, Aus -36)
4th: points difference across tied teams.
5th: Most tries overall (NZ 11, Aus 3, Arg 1)

If the teams cannot be separated by the above, the trophy is shared.

[J Dory]

Teams up....

All Blacks: Beauden Barrett, Jordie Barrett, Anton Lienert-Brown, Jack Goodhue, Caleb Clarke, Richie Mo'unga, Aaron Smith; Ardie Savea, Sam Cane (c), Akira Ioane, Sam Whitelock, Scott Barrett, Nepo Laulala, Dane Coles, Joe Moody. Reserves: Codie Taylor, Karl Tu'inukuafe, Tyrel Lomax, Patrick Tuipulotu, Hoskins Sotutu, TJ Perenara, Rieko Ioane, Will Jordan.

Argentina: Emiliano Boffelli, Ramiro Moyano, Juan Cruz Mallia, Jeronimo de la Fuente, Santiago Cordero, Nicolas Sanchez, Felipe Ezcurra, Facundo Isa, Marcos Kremer, Pablo Matera, Lucas Paulos, Guido Petti, Santiago Medrano, Julian Montoya, Mayco Vivas. Reserves: Santiago Socino, Nahuel Tetaz Chaparro, Lucio Sordoni, Matias Alemanno, Santiago Grondona, Gonzalo Bertranou, Santiago Carreras, Lucas Mensa

Like the look of that ABs team.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

[paddy no 11]

Argentina rotating there not as strong

[Cameo]

Is this the scenario the 6N is scared about re bonus points? Australia or Argentina are likely to win 2 and draw one but still lose the title to NZ who have won two lost two. Doesn't seem quite right. In tournaments this short, I think bonus points should only be a tie breaker if teams are otherwise equal (like away goals).

[Lizard]

Is this the scenario the 6N is scared about re bonus points? Australia or Argentina are likely to win 2 and draw one but still lose the title to NZ who have won two lost two. Doesn't seem quite right. In tournaments this short, I think bonus points should only be a tie breaker if teams are otherwise equal (like away goals).

You've got a point there. 2W, 1L, 1D should beat 2W, 2L every time. But its only fair that a stupid rule goes in our favour for once after the Cricket World Cup final farce.

On the other hand, getting beaten in half your games and ending up with a +64 PD is pretty good.

[zer0]

So how many tests were wasted on Frizell looking like Tarzan and playing like Jane? Hopefully Akira has finally, and rightfully, usurped him as the first-choice blindside. Very much seems to be following the Kaino trajectory, which is great to see. Will also be worthwhile keeping an eye on Grace though.

Also would like to see Sotutu given more opportunities to start at #8 rather than going through this whole song and dance again. Akira/Sotutu is a fantastic combo at the Blues and firmly believe they'll work just as well at test level.

[Doorzetbornandbred]

So how many tests were wasted on Frizell looking like Tarzan and playing like Jane? Hopefully Akira has finally, and rightfully, usurped him as the first-choice blindside. Very much seems to be following the Kaino trajectory, which is great to see. Will also be worthwhile keeping an eye on Grace though.

Also would like to see Sotutu given more opportunities to start at #8 rather than going through this whole song and dance again. Akira/Sotutu is a fantastic combo at the Blues and firmly believe they'll work just as well at test level.

Which brings up the question of who do you drop out of the starting side Cane or Savea?