New captain

[francoisfou]

The incumbent is evidently not up to the job, and many among us may say that he shouldn’t even be there at all. But who could step into the breach? If fit, I’d go for Launchbury with no hesitation, but he’s not so Ford’s the man. C’mon, Eddie, take a bold decision and do what’s blatantly necessary!

[Puja]

Itoje. Discussion over.

Puja

[TheNomad]

Itoje

[francoisfou]

Itoje. Discussion over.

Puja

Ok, but at No 8

[Beasties]

Itoje should've been installed as captain after the WC. We shouldn't even be having a discussion. That interview with Farrell post match was beyond embarrassing.

[Galfon]

Having a captain who's selection on playing terms is unquestionnable, is a good start.

[Which Tyler]

Itoje. Discussion over.

Puja

This.
Itoje has been skipper-in-waiting since his first cap; it's beyond time to give him the armband

[Digby]

We should give the armband to a player who continually leads the way on the piss poor discipline front? I'm not saying it should stay with the captain who has nothing to say (or at least nothing to say anyone is listening to) on the piss poor disciplinary front, but giving it to Itoje when he does have such a poor record is interesting even if he's a very talented player

[padprop]

We should give the armband to a player who continually leads the way on the piss poor discipline front? I'm not saying it should stay with the captain who has nothing to say (or at least nothing to say anyone is listening to) on the piss poor disciplinary front, but giving it to Itoje when he does have such a poor record is interesting even if he's a very talented player

Jonno wasn't exactly squeaky clean. Ends justify the means I'd argue.

[Mr Mwenda]

Might be the push needed to sort the boneheaded penalties out.

[Puja]

We should give the armband to a player who continually leads the way on the piss poor discipline front? I'm not saying it should stay with the captain who has nothing to say (or at least nothing to say anyone is listening to) on the piss poor disciplinary front, but giving it to Itoje when he does have such a poor record is interesting even if he's a very talented player

Undoubted selection in the XV - check
Has shown leadership abilities - check
Vocal on the pitch/leads by example - check
Able to carry out his public speaking responsibilities and is a good public face of the England team - massive check (although this is the least important to me)

He has had the penalties under control over the last year and I'm willing to write off Saturday as ring-rustiness having played zero rugby for months (plus one of the penalties that he conceded was for failing to evaporate from the bottom of a pile of bodies to the referee's satisfaction). I'd prefer him to be better disciplined, but he is by far and away the prime option. The only ones I'd say come even close are Curry and Ford - the former is too young and the latter is not 100% guaranteed his place in the XV (plus I want my captain in the forwards).

Puja

[Digby]

It's the leading by example and giving away penalties which concerns me. Though sometimes poacher turned gamekeeper does work well

Overall we might not have any obvious candidates, the options beyond Farrell and Itoje being George, Ted Hill, Mercer, Slade, Ford, Underhill, Curry, Daly, Watson, Launch, Ewels who all come with a few issues. If I was taking a punt, and it wouldn't be anything more, it'd be for Slade if only on the basis it might prompt some interest in attack

[Digby]

Forgot of course to add the obvious name of Sam Burgess

[Jalo]

Itoje for me too, but to do that Farrell would have to go as he is too petulant to and arrogant to accept the fact that someone is a better captain than him. That will never happen with Jones as coach.

[Spiffy]

Itoje is a great player no doubt. But he frequently seems on the cusp of blowing his fuse and losing a cool head. Not the best attributes for a captain. England will probably continue to get the best out of him but not naming him captain.
I think Ford has the rugby brain and leadership skills to do a good job - but then Jones would have to start him.

Why do some insist that a captain must be a forward? Backs often see much more of the big picture than a bloke with his head up another's bum for most of the game.

[Puja]

Itoje for me too, but to do that Farrell would have to go as he is too petulant to and arrogant to accept the fact that someone is a better captain than him. That will never happen with Jones as coach.

I don't enjoy him as a person or a captain, but I haven't seen anything to suggest that he'd be disruptive if he lost the captaincy. He was pretty level headed when he lost his starting place and was on the bench from Jan-Sep 2015 for England and simply kept working hard.

Itoje is a great player no doubt. But he frequently seems on the cusp of blowing his fuse and losing a cool head. Not the best attributes for a captain. England will probably continue to get the best out of him but not naming him captain.
I think Ford has the rugby brain and leadership skills to do a good job - but then Jones would have to start him.

Why do some insist that a captain must be a forward? Backs often see much more of the big picture than a bloke with his head up another's bum for most of the game.

Because I want a captain who leads by example and who will demonstrate the level of effort needed to win. And, as we all know, backs do little to no work, so it's very hard for them to do that.

I wouldn't say Itoje's ever on the edge of losing his rag. Constantly winding up the opposition, sure, but when have you ever seen him throw a punch or get involved in anything with any edge to it?

Puja

[Scrumhead]

Itoje is a great player no doubt. But he frequently seems on the cusp of blowing his fuse and losing a cool head. Not the best attributes for a captain. England will probably continue to get the best out of him but not naming him captain.
I think Ford has the rugby brain and leadership skills to do a good job - but then Jones would have to start him.

Why do some insist that a captain must be a forward? Backs often see much more of the big picture than a bloke with his head up another's bum for most of the game.

What? I have genuinely never got the impression that he is anywhere close to losing his cool.

If anything, I’d say he’s almost like a emotionless rugby terminator.

[Scrumhead]

Itoje for me too, but to do that Farrell would have to go as he is too petulant to and arrogant to accept the fact that someone is a better captain than him. That will never happen with Jones as coach.

I don't enjoy him as a person or a captain, but I haven't seen anything to suggest that he'd be disruptive if he lost the captaincy. He was pretty level headed when he lost his starting place and was on the bench from Jan-Sep 2015 for England and simply kept working hard.

Itoje is a great player no doubt. But he frequently seems on the cusp of blowing his fuse and losing a cool head. Not the best attributes for a captain. England will probably continue to get the best out of him but not naming him captain.
I think Ford has the rugby brain and leadership skills to do a good job - but then Jones would have to start him.

Why do some insist that a captain must be a forward? Backs often see much more of the big picture than a bloke with his head up another's bum for most of the game.

Because I want a captain who leads by example and who will demonstrate the level of effort needed to win. And, as we all know, backs do little to no work, so it's very hard for them to do that.

I wouldn't say Itoje's ever on the edge of losing his rag. Constantly winding up the opposition, sure, but when have you ever seen him throw a punch or get involved in anything with any edge to it?

Puja

100% agree on all points.

I’m not a big fan or Farrell, but I think he is a consummate professional and would accept it if someone took the captaincy from him. I imagine he’d be spurred on to try to win it back but I don’t think he’d be a d!ck about it.

[Peej]

Do we think there's a reason why Itoje HASN'T been captain of either Sarries or England? His leadership has been talked up since the U20s, but aside from the A team that first year out of the academy he's never been given much of a chance in senior rugby. Seems a bit weird when you think about it

[Puja]

Do we think there's a reason why Itoje HASN'T been captain of either Sarries or England? His leadership has been talked up since the U20s, but aside from the A team that first year out of the academy he's never been given much of a chance in senior rugby. Seems a bit weird when you think about it

He's been behind Barritt and then Fazlet for Saracens as well as England - the first was a very, very good club captain and the second has an incredible marketing department.

Puja

[Digby]

He's just been one of the junior players, by age, so far. Significantly so until around now.

And you don't get many young captains unless you're Wuss trying to hold onto a player

[p/d]

Curry

[Peej]

Do we think there's a reason why Itoje HASN'T been captain of either Sarries or England? His leadership has been talked up since the U20s, but aside from the A team that first year out of the academy he's never been given much of a chance in senior rugby. Seems a bit weird when you think about it

He's been behind Barritt and then Fazlet for Saracens as well as England - the first was a very, very good club captain and the second has an incredible marketing department.

Puja

But when Barritt wasn't available at Sarries he wasn't captain then either. I just find it a bit odd.

[Doorzetbornandbred]

Jamie George would be an option imo

[Oakboy]

As ever, IMO, the captain has to be a definite starting player. I think it is reasonable to suggest that Itoje is the first name on the team-sheet.

Both Farrell and Ford, as captains, have done good jobs at sticking exactly to the script. For Jones to switch from one of that pair, he would be admitting that his whole head-coach strategy (England players need telling what to do etc.) is flawed. I think it is but I can't see him admitting it.

Itoje as captain takes control away from the YFF axis and that makes it a fundamental change where another brain has the main say. It makes any or all of the three droppable and is such a change of direction that Jones won't consider it. That probably makes it the right decision.