EPS Watch / Player Form Thread

[Puja]

And Polledri before that - actually, I can't remember the last player we capped who did feel like that

Liam Botham was the last one I can remember who we gave an A cap to just for the sake of claiming him, and I don't think either Wales nor England ended up caring too much about that.

Puja

[Peej]

That prompted a Google, and it was remarkable that at one stage he had a dual contract with Leeds Rhinos and Tykes and played for both?

Interestingly there was an article doing the rounds this past week about Australia, and how they all fear losing their best U20s prospects to Japan as they don't get offered Super Rugby contracts and there's nothing else, whereas Japan offers big money even for 19/20 year olds.

[Which Tyler]

And Polledri before that - actually, I can't remember the last player we capped who did feel like that

Well, I see the Scots board think that Mercer and MCConnochie were capped by Eddie to prevent Scotland getting their hands on their rightful players.
That's Leeds born Mercer with English and Kiwi parentage, who only qualified for Scotland on residency; and London born McConnochie who does have Scottish parents, but has never lived there, and was capped for England (but not Eddie) whilst playing for Hartpury.

[Mikey Brown]

Yes. The entirety of Scotland are saying it. Surely not just 1 or 2 suggesting it’s a shame they’ll likely remain 1-2 cap wonders, but could probably have done a job for Scotland.

[Which Tyler]

Sorry, I didn't realise saying "the Scots board" meant that I was definitively saying that the entirety of Scotland was saying it.

Out of interest, and for future reference, when we talk about "the EMB think..." does that mean that every English person thinks the same? or just that a few people on the EMB think something?

Have you nothing better to get your knickers twisted over? or are you feeling fighty as the EMB think you're not a genuine full-back?

[Mikey Brown]

Hang on, who’s got their knickers in a twist?

[Mikey Brown]

Fair enough, I did read that as simply “the Scots”.

I’m awaiting the article where Puja is used as “a source close to England rugby” in saying that the summer tour should be used primarily for capturing dual-qualified players.

[Puja]

Fair enough, I did read that as simply “the Scots”.

I’m awaiting the article where Puja is used as “a source close to England rugby” in saying that the summer tour should be used primarily for capturing dual-qualified players.

Ruck.co.uk and rugbypass are fighting over the rights to use me as a source.

Puja

[Scrumhead]

Yes. The entirety of Scotland are saying it. Surely not just 1 or 2 suggesting it’s a shame they’ll likely remain 1-2 cap wonders, but could probably have done a job for Scotland.

McConnochie was great last season but has been very quiet this time round. I doubt he would have made either 6N squad even if he were available for Scotland.

Mercer is a different case entirely. Not being in favour with Eddie Jones doesn’t mean it’ll be the same for the next regime. I can totally understand Mercer’s decision to go to France, but he’s easily young enough and good enough that he could spend a few years out there and return to challenge for a place at the 2027 RWC.

[Mikey Brown]

Yes. The entirety of Scotland are saying it. Surely not just 1 or 2 suggesting it’s a shame they’ll likely remain 1-2 cap wonders, but could probably have done a job for Scotland.

McConnochie was great last season but has been very quiet this time round. I doubt he would have made either 6N squad even if he were available for Scotland.

Mercer is a different case entirely. Not being in favour with Eddie Jones doesn’t mean it’ll be the same for the next regime. I can totally understand Mercer’s decision to go to France, but he’s easily young enough and good enough that he could spend a few years out there and return to challenge for a place at the 2027 RWC.

Yep. I’m sure EJ’s critique will be useful for him either way though. Hopefully he’ll pick up some of the culture of tireless work-rate and incredible bounce times that the French are famed for.

[Banquo]

Yes. The entirety of Scotland are saying it. Surely not just 1 or 2 suggesting it’s a shame they’ll likely remain 1-2 cap wonders, but could probably have done a job for Scotland.

McConnochie was great last season but has been very quiet this time round. I doubt he would have made either 6N squad even if he were available for Scotland.

Mercer is a different case entirely. Not being in favour with Eddie Jones doesn’t mean it’ll be the same for the next regime. I can totally understand Mercer’s decision to go to France, but he’s easily young enough and good enough that he could spend a few years out there and return to challenge for a place at the 2027 RWC.

Tricky to go well on the wing in a dysfunctional/inconsistent team. I've thought he's looked pretty good when I've seen them- especially in the air from cross field kicks.

Mercer still flatters to deceive for me.

[Scrumhead]

Possibly, but then Muir has disproved that in recent weeks.

Re. Mercer, I think he is the real deal. He’s often Bath’s best player and there are few significant weaknesses in his game and I think he’s a natural leader.

Going to France might not improve his game, but on the other hand, going out of his comfort zone could be a good thing and a different experience could lead to him becoming very good.

[Which Tyler]

For me, Mercer is the real deal, but he is guilty of conserving his energy a little - not by going hiding, but by taking a few seconds after an involvement - which is a cardinal sin for Eddie.

Going to France will maximize his strong suits, and no-one will care about his weaknesses. If the his team mates can keep up, I'd expect him to do a Bendy / Steffon and be a big star in France by doing the same sort of thing, but meeting the expectations of what the French want to see.
Hopefully, he'll come back to Bath after 2023 to challenge for an England spot under Eddie's successor. If he does choose to stay there, I really hope he keeps his mouth shut about how he's not being capped despite earning tonnes of plaudits and removing himself from selection.

[Peej]

And Polledri before that - actually, I can't remember the last player we capped who did feel like that

Well, I see the Scots board think that Mercer and MCConnochie were capped by Eddie to prevent Scotland getting their hands on their rightful players.
That's Leeds born Mercer with English and Kiwi parentage, who only qualified for Scotland on residency; and London born McConnochie who does have Scottish parents, but has never lived there, and was capped for England (but not Eddie) whilst playing for Hartpury.

Swings and roundabouts isn't it - look at Hamish Watson

[Scrumhead]

For me, Mercer is the real deal, but he is guilty of conserving his energy a little - not by going hiding, but by taking a few seconds after an involvement - which is a cardinal sin for Eddie.

Going to France will maximize his strong suits, and no-one will care about his weaknesses. If the his team mates can keep up, I'd expect him to do a Bendy / Steffon and be a big star in France by doing the same sort of thing, but meeting the expectations of what the French want to see.
Hopefully, he'll come back to Bath after 2023 to challenge for an England spot under Eddie's successor. If he does choose to stay there, I really hope he keeps his mouth shut about how he's not being capped despite earning tonnes of plaudits and removing himself from selection.

This!

[Banquo]

Possibly, but then Muir has disproved that in recent weeks.

Re. Mercer, I think he is the real deal. He’s often Bath’s best player and there are few significant weaknesses in his game and I think he’s a natural leader.

Going to France might not improve his game, but on the other hand, going out of his comfort zone could be a good thing and a different experience could lead to him becoming very good.

He makes some pretty poor option calls after doing something good (brainfarts) and is quite lazy imo. Not sure Muir has been much better than McConnachie who I think has been fine, and Bath have been better in recent weeks.

Maybe Mercer will see his strengths maximised in France, though there is nothing stopping Bath in doing that, nor anything stopping him improving while he is here, balls in his court.

[Digby]

For me, Mercer is the real deal, but he is guilty of conserving his energy a little - not by going hiding, but by taking a few seconds after an involvement - which is a cardinal sin for Eddie.

Going to France will maximize his strong suits, and no-one will care about his weaknesses. If the his team mates can keep up, I'd expect him to do a Bendy / Steffon and be a big star in France by doing the same sort of thing, but meeting the expectations of what the French want to see.
Hopefully, he'll come back to Bath after 2023 to challenge for an England spot under Eddie's successor. If he does choose to stay there, I really hope he keeps his mouth shut about how he's not being capped despite earning tonnes of plaudits and removing himself from selection.

This!

Yes, if one ever disagrees with policy of whoever is in charge of a given office you simply keep your mouth closed and never venture another opinion

[Which Tyler]

Yes, if one ever disagrees with policy of whoever is in charge of a given office you simply keep your mouth closed and never venture another opinion

Nice straw man.
If you disagree with the policy, feel free to say so.
Don't complain when you're not getting picked because you chose to take yourself out of contention.

Steffon, for example, didn't do plain about the policy, he complained that he was special and the policy shouldn't apply to him.

[twitchy]

Just to try and reign in the discussion a bit. Do you not think that picking players for your age grade teams based on where they go to school is just a bit silly/amateur? I'm really talking about the home nations here. This isn't a primary school football team doing car shares with parents to get every one to the game.

Could moriarty not have just met up with the welsh squad for instance? What logistics am I missing here.

[Oakboy]

Just to try and reign in the discussion a bit. Do you not think that picking players for your age grade teams based on where they go to school is just a bit silly/amateur? I'm really talking about the home nations here. This isn't a primary school football team doing car shares with parents to get every one to the game.

Could moriarty not have just met up with the welsh squad for instance? What logistics am I missing here.

Maybe it is all about a lack of communication between schools and associations. Whatever is the existing channel for selection/representation will take an earthquake to change, I suspect.

[Banquo]

Just to try and reign in the discussion a bit. Do you not think that picking players for your age grade teams based on where they go to school is just a bit silly/amateur? I'm really talking about the home nations here. This isn't a primary school football team doing car shares with parents to get every one to the game.

Could moriarty not have just met up with the welsh squad for instance? What logistics am I missing here.

He could have, if they'd selected him. He maybe chose not too. As far as I know, players are not excluded from playing for the team they qualify for through heritage; a lot just choose to go down the best development pathway.

I maybe wrong, but its not England Schools and England Colts any more.

[Puja]

Just to try and reign in the discussion a bit. Do you not think that picking players for your age grade teams based on where they go to school is just a bit silly/amateur? I'm really talking about the home nations here. This isn't a primary school football team doing car shares with parents to get every one to the game.

Could moriarty not have just met up with the welsh squad for instance? What logistics am I missing here.

He could have, if they'd selected him. He maybe chose not too. As far as I know, players are not excluded from playing for the team they qualify for through heritage; a lot just choose to go down the best development pathway.

I maybe wrong, but its not England Schools and England Colts any more.

Moriarty was a special case, as Wales at the time were using their U20s side as their second capture team and thus if he'd played age grade for them, he'd've been making a choice for all of his future at 17.

I don't see any particular need to be too strident about age grades and qualifications. Yes, it is mildly annoying developing someone through our youth teams only for them to be poached as soon as they break through, but I'd rather that than be proscriptive d*cks to children.

Puja

[Digby]

Yes, if one ever disagrees with policy of whoever is in charge of a given office you simply keep your mouth closed and never venture another opinion

Nice straw man.
If you disagree with the policy, feel free to say so.
Don't complain when you're not getting picked because you chose to take yourself out of contention.

Steffon, for example, didn't do plain about the policy, he complained that he was special and the policy shouldn't apply to him.

That does seem somewhat logically inconsistent. You can disagree with the policy but not because it doesn't work to your own interests, when the policy is in place to serve supposed self interest?

And I doubt Mercer wouldn't be available if he got a call, the removal from contention is all on the side of the RFU unless a player actively declines

[twitchy]

Just to try and reign in the discussion a bit. Do you not think that picking players for your age grade teams based on where they go to school is just a bit silly/amateur? I'm really talking about the home nations here. This isn't a primary school football team doing car shares with parents to get every one to the game.

Could moriarty not have just met up with the welsh squad for instance? What logistics am I missing here.

He could have, if they'd selected him. He maybe chose not too. As far as I know, players are not excluded from playing for the team they qualify for through heritage; a lot just choose to go down the best development pathway.

I maybe wrong, but its not England Schools and England Colts any more.

Moriarty was a special case, as Wales at the time were using their U20s side as their second capture team and thus if he'd played age grade for them, he'd've been making a choice for all of his future at 17.

I don't see any particular need to be too strident about age grades and qualifications. Yes, it is mildly annoying developing someone through our youth teams only for them to be poached as soon as they break through, but I'd rather that than be proscriptive d*cks to children.

Puja

He could have said "no thanks I'm welsh" and stayed at home and had a cuppa if he was "undecided" or we could have just picked someone else who actually wanted to play for england. If you wanted to be cynical you could say he used it as a shop window.

[fivepointer]

He could have, if they'd selected him. He maybe chose not too. As far as I know, players are not excluded from playing for the team they qualify for through heritage; a lot just choose to go down the best development pathway.

I maybe wrong, but its not England Schools and England Colts any more.

Moriarty was a special case, as Wales at the time were using their U20s side as their second capture team and thus if he'd played age grade for them, he'd've been making a choice for all of his future at 17.

I don't see any particular need to be too strident about age grades and qualifications. Yes, it is mildly annoying developing someone through our youth teams only for them to be poached as soon as they break through, but I'd rather that than be proscriptive d*cks to children.

Puja

He could have said "no thanks I'm welsh" and stayed at home and had a cuppa if he was "undecided" or we could have just picked someone else who actually wanted to play for england. If you wanted to be cynical you could say he used it as a shop window.

He used the system. He was at Hartpury, linked to Gloucester and had grown up in the English game. You can understand why a player will want to hedge their bets and to take advantage of the English school/college/academy structure, even though they may never seriously want to play for England.
My gripe is that a player should make a firm commitment at U20 level. An appearance here should be binding. That way we stop investing time and energy on a player who wont go on to represent us.