EPS Watch / Player Form Thread

[I R Geech]

Just the thought of a match day squad including Farrell with a fit Ford sat at home makes me cry.

I shed a tear at the thought of Smith at 10 with Farrell at 12. I just don't see how Smith can truly be himself at FH, with Farrell at IC, if Ford could not.

It evokes memories of the game in SA where Cips came in at 10 and Youngs and Farrell seemed to be trying not to give him the ball, while Farrell whined at him endlessly (and screamed at him for the kick through that won the game).

[Oakboy]

Somebody suggested using Farrell as the old pro that comes off the bench to see out the game (at 10 or 12). Jones could do worse than use him in that role, IMO. I know Slade has had some criticism recently but I think he is inhibited by Farrell's presence as well, especially if he is at 12. I'd start with Quirke, Smith, Tuilagi and Slade simply because I think that four could have the highest ceiling for the team potentially.

[Puja]

Just the thought of a match day squad including Farrell with a fit Ford sat at home makes me cry.

I shed a tear at the thought of Smith at 10 with Farrell at 12. I just don't see how Smith can truly be himself at FH, with Farrell at IC, if Ford could not.

It evokes memories of the game in SA where Cips came in at 10 and Youngs and Farrell seemed to be trying not to give him the ball, while Farrell whined at him endlessly (and screamed at him for the kick through that won the game).

I mean, that kick through that ended up winning the game was a) not a great decision given it was kicking away our first bit of attacking ball in ages and b) executed so badly that it was only Jonny May's incredible pace, plus two miraculous bounces where the ball basically stopped all forward momentum, that made it a try rather than rolling touch in goal.

I hate the narrative that Cipriani was appallingly used - he's a great player, but only produced his best in a team that was set up solely to play around him and that's just not possible at international level. Ford managed to produce exciting attacking play in the first two tests under exactly the same circumstances, but Cipriani gets lauded for a lucky kick that deserved Farrell's annoyance.

Puja

[Oakboy]

I shed a tear at the thought of Smith at 10 with Farrell at 12. I just don't see how Smith can truly be himself at FH, with Farrell at IC, if Ford could not.

It evokes memories of the game in SA where Cips came in at 10 and Youngs and Farrell seemed to be trying not to give him the ball, while Farrell whined at him endlessly (and screamed at him for the kick through that won the game).

I mean, that kick through that ended up winning the game was a) not a great decision given it was kicking away our first bit of attacking ball in ages and b) executed so badly that it was only Jonny May's incredible pace, plus two miraculous bounces where the ball basically stopped all forward momentum, that made it a try rather than rolling touch in goal.

I hate the narrative that Cipriani was appallingly used - he's a great player, but only produced his best in a team that was set up solely to play around him and that's just not possible at international level. Ford managed to produce exciting attacking play in the first two tests under exactly the same circumstances, but Cipriani gets lauded for a lucky kick that deserved Farrell's annoyance.


Puja

I see where you are coming from, Puja, but I still think, used properly over a longer period, that Cipriani might just have added something. What matters now, IMO, is recognising that any combination of Youngs, Ford, Farrell has already played to the best of its ability - there's no disputing that when you simply count the caps. Good quality internationals all three may have been but if there is a chance that Smith can raise the ceiling he has to be given the opportunity. That means running the show.

You describe the Cipriani issue with 'but only produced his best in a team that was set up solely to play around him'. I think it's possible to drift towards that argument with suggesting Smith has to play without Farrell but any requirement of Smith playing to numbers or doing what Farrell orders neuters Smith. He has to be free to make his own decisions instantly or it's a waste of time picking him. Surely, any top FH has to be free to run things, doesn't he?

[Timbo]

Just the thought of a match day squad including Farrell with a fit Ford sat at home makes me cry.

I shed a tear at the thought of Smith at 10 with Farrell at 12. I just don't see how Smith can truly be himself at FH, with Farrell at IC, if Ford could not.

It evokes memories of the game in SA where Cips came in at 10 and Youngs and Farrell seemed to be trying not to give him the ball, while Farrell whined at him endlessly (and screamed at him for the kick through that won the game).

That’s a version of that particular game peddled by people who don’t like Youngs and Farrell and want to paint Cipriani as the great, unappreciated-in-his-time messiah. Not a true reflection of events imo.

[Digby]

I shed a tear at the thought of Smith at 10 with Farrell at 12. I just don't see how Smith can truly be himself at FH, with Farrell at IC, if Ford could not.

It evokes memories of the game in SA where Cips came in at 10 and Youngs and Farrell seemed to be trying not to give him the ball, while Farrell whined at him endlessly (and screamed at him for the kick through that won the game).

I mean, that kick through that ended up winning the game was a) not a great decision given it was kicking away our first bit of attacking ball in ages and b) executed so badly that it was only Jonny May's incredible pace, plus two miraculous bounces where the ball basically stopped all forward momentum, that made it a try rather than rolling touch in goal.

I hate the narrative that Cipriani was appallingly used - he's a great player, but only produced his best in a team that was set up solely to play around him and that's just not possible at international level. Ford managed to produce exciting attacking play in the first two tests under exactly the same circumstances, but Cipriani gets lauded for a lucky kick that deserved Farrell's annoyance.

Puja

Why is it impossible to setup a test side to play with a 10 like Cips? Surely any 10 worth their salt is going to have a massive input into how attack is run, and okay if you flat out don't want the things they'd want fair enough don't give 'em the time time of day, but given time Cips would have players understanding what options he's wanting them to offer. You'd have a bigger problem with a 10 who was too hesitant to say what they wanted, and nobody has ever accused Cippy of that I'd assume

Not that I mind so much now Cips didn't get the chance, back before Ford was picked I would out of the two have picked Cips, but Ford has played very well for England and is clearly top class himself. Which makes it very odd that Ford has been dropped after playing well with an injury and possibly being somewhat recuperated now. Always a risk to drop someone for playing well

[Puja]

It evokes memories of the game in SA where Cips came in at 10 and Youngs and Farrell seemed to be trying not to give him the ball, while Farrell whined at him endlessly (and screamed at him for the kick through that won the game).

I mean, that kick through that ended up winning the game was a) not a great decision given it was kicking away our first bit of attacking ball in ages and b) executed so badly that it was only Jonny May's incredible pace, plus two miraculous bounces where the ball basically stopped all forward momentum, that made it a try rather than rolling touch in goal.

I hate the narrative that Cipriani was appallingly used - he's a great player, but only produced his best in a team that was set up solely to play around him and that's just not possible at international level. Ford managed to produce exciting attacking play in the first two tests under exactly the same circumstances, but Cipriani gets lauded for a lucky kick that deserved Farrell's annoyance.

Puja

Why is it impossible to setup a test side to play with a 10 like Cips? Surely any 10 worth their salt is going to have a massive input into how attack is run, and okay if you flat out don't want the things they'd want fair enough don't give 'em the time time of day, but given time Cips would have players understanding what options he's wanting them to offer. You'd have a bigger problem with a 10 who was too hesitant to say what they wanted, and nobody has ever accused Cippy of that I'd assume

Not that I mind so much now Cips didn't get the chance, back before Ford was picked I would out of the two have picked Cips, but Ford has played very well for England and is clearly top class himself. Which makes it very odd that Ford has been dropped after playing well with an injury and possibly being somewhat recuperated now. Always a risk to drop someone for playing well

Because Cipriani only works at his highlights-reel best when the entire team is set up specifically to be there for his offloads and passes that look off-the-cuff, but only work when there's someone there who's played/trained with him enough to predict that he's going to do that and be there running that line.

And an international side is, barring a ridiculous run of form and fitness, likely to always have changes and limited training time in which to get the newbies up to full Cipriani cognizance levels. That's not even mentioning the risk of building and training a side around a player who could then get injured. That's why he can produce incredible things for a club that he trains with 45 weeks of the year, but it's always "Eddie's fault" or "Farrell's fault" or "Burt's fault" or "Johnno's fault" that he's only been okay when put in for England.

Puja

[I R Geech]

I shed a tear at the thought of Smith at 10 with Farrell at 12. I just don't see how Smith can truly be himself at FH, with Farrell at IC, if Ford could not.

It evokes memories of the game in SA where Cips came in at 10 and Youngs and Farrell seemed to be trying not to give him the ball, while Farrell whined at him endlessly (and screamed at him for the kick through that won the game).

That’s a version of that particular game peddled by people who don’t like Youngs and Farrell and want to paint Cipriani as the great, unappreciated-in-his-time messiah. Not a true reflection of events imo.

Not at all, and perhaps you are reading what you want to read. I'm no Cipriani fanboy, but merely used it as an example of how a creative playmaker will find it hard going with Youngs and Farrell either side - Youngs either shovelled shit or gave it to Farrell. That's not favouritism, it's simply a fact, just ask Ford.

[Puja]

It evokes memories of the game in SA where Cips came in at 10 and Youngs and Farrell seemed to be trying not to give him the ball, while Farrell whined at him endlessly (and screamed at him for the kick through that won the game).

I mean, that kick through that ended up winning the game was a) not a great decision given it was kicking away our first bit of attacking ball in ages and b) executed so badly that it was only Jonny May's incredible pace, plus two miraculous bounces where the ball basically stopped all forward momentum, that made it a try rather than rolling touch in goal.

I hate the narrative that Cipriani was appallingly used - he's a great player, but only produced his best in a team that was set up solely to play around him and that's just not possible at international level. Ford managed to produce exciting attacking play in the first two tests under exactly the same circumstances, but Cipriani gets lauded for a lucky kick that deserved Farrell's annoyance.


Puja

I see where you are coming from, Puja, but I still think, used properly over a longer period, that Cipriani might just have added something. What matters now, IMO, is recognising that any combination of Youngs, Ford, Farrell has already played to the best of its ability - there's no disputing that when you simply count the caps. Good quality internationals all three may have been but if there is a chance that Smith can raise the ceiling he has to be given the opportunity. That means running the show.

You describe the Cipriani issue with 'but only produced his best in a team that was set up solely to play around him'. I think it's possible to drift towards that argument with suggesting Smith has to play without Farrell but any requirement of Smith playing to numbers or doing what Farrell orders neuters Smith. He has to be free to make his own decisions instantly or it's a waste of time picking him. Surely, any top FH has to be free to run things, doesn't he?

I don't get the "doing what Farrell orders" narrative. Since when has any 10 been dominated and ordered against his wishes by another member of their backline? Certainly not any 10 with the mental strength to play internationally. I don't think Farrell playing will make a difference to Smith (except in the case that we continue to think Farrell and Slade is a sensible centre partnership and give him zero runners to work with) - it'll be whether Eddie's plan is to kick the leather off every ball that'll be the issue. Agreed that if he's not allowed to play what he sees, it's a waste of time picking him.

Puja

[Digby]

I mean, that kick through that ended up winning the game was a) not a great decision given it was kicking away our first bit of attacking ball in ages and b) executed so badly that it was only Jonny May's incredible pace, plus two miraculous bounces where the ball basically stopped all forward momentum, that made it a try rather than rolling touch in goal.

I hate the narrative that Cipriani was appallingly used - he's a great player, but only produced his best in a team that was set up solely to play around him and that's just not possible at international level. Ford managed to produce exciting attacking play in the first two tests under exactly the same circumstances, but Cipriani gets lauded for a lucky kick that deserved Farrell's annoyance.

Puja

Why is it impossible to setup a test side to play with a 10 like Cips? Surely any 10 worth their salt is going to have a massive input into how attack is run, and okay if you flat out don't want the things they'd want fair enough don't give 'em the time time of day, but given time Cips would have players understanding what options he's wanting them to offer. You'd have a bigger problem with a 10 who was too hesitant to say what they wanted, and nobody has ever accused Cippy of that I'd assume

Not that I mind so much now Cips didn't get the chance, back before Ford was picked I would out of the two have picked Cips, but Ford has played very well for England and is clearly top class himself. Which makes it very odd that Ford has been dropped after playing well with an injury and possibly being somewhat recuperated now. Always a risk to drop someone for playing well

Because Cipriani only works at his highlights-reel best when the entire team is set up specifically to be there for his offloads and passes that look off-the-cuff, but only work when there's someone there who's played/trained with him enough to predict that he's going to do that and be there running that line.

And an international side is, barring a ridiculous run of form and fitness, likely to always have changes and limited training time in which to get the newbies up to full Cipriani cognizance levels. That's not even mentioning the risk of building and training a side around a player who could then get injured. That's why he can produce incredible things for a club that he trains with 45 weeks of the year, but it's always "Eddie's fault" or "Farrell's fault" or "Burt's fault" or "Johnno's fault" that he's only been okay when put in for England.

Puja

I agree there's way more structure to what Cips does than just off the cuff plays.. So yes you'd need to be on board with the sort of areas he wants you to offer in and on what lines, and how he wants support done, both offering on the carry and at the breakdown. But that's doable in a test environment, especially because at heart there's structure. If he was off the cuff that would be an issue

Yes he would need time because he is going to want to add quite a bit of detail, but once that shape is there the top players can slot in/out of the system. Like any 10 Cips has a range of options, and tbh he has more than most because he's got a better skillset, and then he's got the vision/decision making to back that up. What hasn't been tested given he was never given the time is whether that decision making and execution would have stood up at test level, especially once sides started to pick his game apart so we're just never going to know if he could have been good enough.

And had he been there we would have at least had more work on attack. For I like Ford, and would still be picking Ford, he's been prepared to go along with some really boring rugby in the name of winning, which is a slightly odd criticism when such a large part of the point is to win, but all that kicked away ball looking to setup the right position and opportunity isn't an enticing watch

[Oakboy]

I know I keep saying it but it's not what Ford CAN do. It's what Ford DOES do. He is capable of managing the game for 80 minutes but, instead, he kicks more than any other FH. Whether that is according to Jones's orders or because he can see no gain in moving it via Farrell, only he knows. I think we badly need a new direction. Apparently, as Ford is not in the squad, so does Jones. What I fear is Smith getting a start and being stymied by tactics or Farrell. Who knows, come the 6N, Ford could be back, Smith could be consigned to oblivion and the ball will up into the stratosphere again. I hope not!

[Mr Mwenda]

Yep. Eddie has always like the idea of a ‘roaming’ winger and Malins is ideal for that role. Watson’s injury is unfortunate, but gives Malins an opportunity to build experience in that position without limiting Steward’s game time at 15.

And poor Watson will never get a chance to try playing full back. Such a shame that's not been tried for club or country.

[Timbo]

…..

[Timbo]

It evokes memories of the game in SA where Cips came in at 10 and Youngs and Farrell seemed to be trying not to give him the ball, while Farrell whined at him endlessly (and screamed at him for the kick through that won the game).

That’s a version of that particular game peddled by people who don’t like Youngs and Farrell and want to paint Cipriani as the great, unappreciated-in-his-time messiah. Not a true reflection of events imo.

Not at all, and perhaps you are reading what you want to read. I'm no Cipriani fanboy, but merely used it as an example of how a creative playmaker will find it hard going with Youngs and Farrell either side - Youngs either shovelled shit or gave it to Farrell. That's not favouritism, it's simply a fact, just ask Ford.

It’s not a fact, it’s your opinion.

I disagree with your assessment of that game. No evidence that Youngs or Farrell were purposefully not using Cipriani or that Farrell was ‘whining at him endlessly’. That’s hyperbolic at best, simply made up at worst.

[Timbo]

I know I keep saying it but it's not what Ford CAN do. It's what Ford DOES do. He is capable of managing the game for 80 minutes but, instead, he kicks more than any other FH.

Does he kick more than any other flyhalf? From stats that I recall seeing England have, for the most part, not been the most kick heavy team in international rugby.

And isn’t kicking a significant part of managing a game, particularly at test level?

[Spiffy]

I mean, that kick through that ended up winning the game was a) not a great decision given it was kicking away our first bit of attacking ball in ages and b) executed so badly that it was only Jonny May's incredible pace, plus two miraculous bounces where the ball basically stopped all forward momentum, that made it a try rather than rolling touch in goal.

I hate the narrative that Cipriani was appallingly used - he's a great player, but only produced his best in a team that was set up solely to play around him and that's just not possible at international level. Ford managed to produce exciting attacking play in the first two tests under exactly the same circumstances, but Cipriani gets lauded for a lucky kick that deserved Farrell's annoyance.


Puja

I see where you are coming from, Puja, but I still think, used properly over a longer period, that Cipriani might just have added something. What matters now, IMO, is recognising that any combination of Youngs, Ford, Farrell has already played to the best of its ability - there's no disputing that when you simply count the caps. Good quality internationals all three may have been but if there is a chance that Smith can raise the ceiling he has to be given the opportunity. That means running the show.

You describe the Cipriani issue with 'but only produced his best in a team that was set up solely to play around him'. I think it's possible to drift towards that argument with suggesting Smith has to play without Farrell but any requirement of Smith playing to numbers or doing what Farrell orders neuters Smith. He has to be free to make his own decisions instantly or it's a waste of time picking him. Surely, any top FH has to be free to run things, doesn't he?

I don't get the "doing what Farrell orders" narrative. Since when has any 10 been dominated and ordered against his wishes by another member of their backline? Certainly not any 10 with the mental strength to play internationally. I don't think Farrell playing will make a difference to Smith (except in the case that we continue to think Farrell and Slade is a sensible centre partnership and give him zero runners to work with) - it'll be whether Eddie's plan is to kick the leather off every ball that'll be the issue. Agreed that if he's not allowed to play what he sees, it's a waste of time picking him.

Puja

Have to disagree with you there.Farrell is the England captain. He is Eddie Jones' designated mouthpiece on the field. If he is barking away orders to a junior member of the team, it will be very difficult for that bloke to ignore them. Especially if he realises that the outcome of showing independent thought or action is to get the heave ho.
I hate the whole setup where Farrell is somehow regarded by his teammates, many (but not all) fans and the media, as some kind of wonderful, charismatic leader who can do no wrong. In reality he is a useful, but limited rugby player, who has worked hard to maximise his skills but his lack of flair, vision and pace is taking England nowhere. I don't believe they will advance as long as he keeps being selected. But with Jones, he's there for the duration.

[Peej]

I know I keep saying it but it's not what Ford CAN do. It's what Ford DOES do. He is capable of managing the game for 80 minutes but, instead, he kicks more than any other FH. Whether that is according to Jones's orders or because he can see no gain in moving it via Farrell, only he knows. I think we badly need a new direction. Apparently, as Ford is not in the squad, so does Jones. What I fear is Smith getting a start and being stymied by tactics or Farrell. Who knows, come the 6N, Ford could be back, Smith could be consigned to oblivion and the ball will up into the stratosphere again. I hope not!

It can only be what Ford is told to do by Jones. If he was told to welly it, and ran it, he'd be dropped and vice versa. The coaches set the team up to play a certain way. Some players feed into that, some coaches don#t let them have an input. But no coaches would tolerate a player not delivering to the agreed game plan

[Puja]

I know I keep saying it but it's not what Ford CAN do. It's what Ford DOES do. He is capable of managing the game for 80 minutes but, instead, he kicks more than any other FH. Whether that is according to Jones's orders or because he can see no gain in moving it via Farrell, only he knows. I think we badly need a new direction. Apparently, as Ford is not in the squad, so does Jones. What I fear is Smith getting a start and being stymied by tactics or Farrell. Who knows, come the 6N, Ford could be back, Smith could be consigned to oblivion and the ball will up into the stratosphere again. I hope not!

It can only be what Ford is told to do by Jones. If he was told to welly it, and ran it, he'd be dropped and vice versa. The coaches set the team up to play a certain way. Some players feed into that, some coaches don#t let them have an input. But no coaches would tolerate a player not delivering to the agreed game plan

That's the nail on the head and the riposte to the idea that Farrell is somehow controlling the game from 12 - Eddie's the one in charge and he's going to be the one saying kick it up into the sky.

Short memory from you though Oakboy, as we've been through a few different play styles with Ford at 10 and a few of them have been very attacking. The first two tests in SA for example, where we scored 7 backs tries which were mostly created by Ford, the draw against Scotland where Ford came on and turned around a losing game with his attacking play, the victory against SA at home (the one where Youngs pulled PSTD's pants down twice in a row) - he and England have played some very attacking rugby, but people remember the 2020 Autumn games where we refused to play any rugby and think that's all we've ever done.

I'm hoping that England are due a change of tack, given the play in the Prem and the world right now, and the fact that Eddie has spoken about the game changing. But I am worried that we'll start playing attacking rugby and idiot pundits (and thus casual fans) will say, "That's what happens when you pick Marcus Smith," rather than recognise that the team plays to Eddie's gameplan.

Puja

[FKAS]

It's also worth remembering that Ford played most of last season with an achilles issue which may have made it difficult to attack with his natural instinctive flair. If you've got in the back of your mind that you are carrying an injury you'll play more conservatively. Eddie's tactics were conservative, he had a squad both tired and not match fit because of how the season had played out.

[morepork]

Ford has a great ability to pick out runners in traffic and has a sweet pass. He is like a Stephen Larkham, without the swervy run and hyperthyroid google-eyes. He does kick a bit, but unlike young Owen, his brain doesn't freeze and yell "chip kick!" when you are hot on the opposition 22 with a 2-man overlap. Every time. The stubborn wrong selection of inside backs for England the last few years has been criminal.

[Oakboy]

Yet, if it's not Ford's fault at all, why has Jones dropped him. As far as I can tell, from what I am told on this thread anyway, Ford WAS doing what Jones wanted and doing it well. Now he has been dropped and replaced by Smith, a young flair-merchant. Worse, though, Farrell has not gone and is the only other FH in the squad.

Somebody tell me why the two FHs are NOT Smith and Ford. OR, why both are not in the squad with Farrell just as a IC option.

[Puja]

Yet, if it's not Ford's fault at all, why has Jones dropped him. As far as I can tell, from what I am told on this thread anyway, Ford WAS doing what Jones wanted and doing it well. Now he has been dropped and replaced by Smith, a young flair-merchant. Worse, though, Farrell has not gone and is the only other FH in the squad.

Somebody tell me why the two FHs are NOT Smith and Ford. OR, why both are not in the squad with Farrell just as a IC option.

Because Eddie's position has always been only two fly-halves per squad so that there isn't a "too many chefs" situation. Smith has undeniably been in incredible nick and Ford's last season wasn't great cause he was dragging the injury around.

As to why it's not Ford/Smith? The only answer I have is Farrell's "incredible" captaincy and that Eddie doesn't want Smith kicking for goal. To me, it's utterly, utterly wrong.

Puja

[Mikey Brown]

Yeah nobody really knows do they?

Maybe it’s just that I can’t handle putting my faith in Tuilagi’s fitness again, but it does seem like Farrell still has a role to play at 12 to some degree. 2 fly halves training if OF is training at 12 would seem sensible to me but whatever.

It would suggest to me we’re still sticking with this plan of shifting Farrell/Tuilagi in/out at 50/60 minutes. You could argue that offers us some adaptability or you could argue it’s massively disruptive.

I just can’t picture Mark Atkinson getting a cap, as much as I think he’s got some incredible attributes. Why now? Why not Devoto? I just don’t get it.

[Scrumhead]

Yeah - I agree. All seems confused and as much as I like Atkinson, I’m really not sure he’s the answer now. I do think he is better than Devoto though who I’ve always thought is somewhat overrated (I know that’s slightly controversial).

Also - and this is definitely out of character for me - I think Farrell has been playing well. I know his last two games were against a clueless Bath side and Wasps reserves, but you can only play what’s in front of you and individually, he’s had multiple good moments in both games. I still don’t really like him at 10 or at 12 for England, but he definitely looks like he has got the bit between his teeth again at least.

[Danno]

Oh no.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/ ... rnationals