Mikey Brown wrote:Wasn’t Scott just clearing rucks all day after Haining plods in to contact?
He certainly didn’t shine and got caught in a tough position for De Allende’s assist, but I’d rather we have another look vs Japan than continue Townsends endless chopping and changing without actually getting a clearer picture.
I don’t get this Russell at 12 thing. Sort of fun but seems like a waste of time to be honest. Was playing like a real spaz today. I know we fluked a try out of it but those backwards cross kicks are just dumb.
Not sure how much there is to say on this. Once again a huge amount of effort put in for very little return. Set piece fell apart and basically everybody forgot how to pass or hold on to the ball. Watching the intensity and accuracy of Ireland immediately after this it was like a different sport.
Ritchie and Price impressed I thought.
Scott looked to have lost a yard of pace, and his passing has never really been a strong point despite playing 10 when he was younger. He's 31 and seemingly at best 4th choice 12 if the rumours of Tuipulotu running at 12 all week are true. He isn't going to the world cup at 33.
We need to move the ball a hell of a lot better, if Johnson isn't fit then I'd rather see someone a bit more creative than Scott or Tuipulotu at 12.
Mikey Brown wrote:. I know we fluked a try out of it but those backwards cross kicks are just dumb.
I’m saying this now before Squidge does but
That is a strategy designed to move the ball really fucking fast and beat a tight defence. Idea being that the last man races across to desperately defend the winger who has just caught it leaving a massive gap for the catcher to pip the ball back to the full back to run into. We actually created 3 clear try scoring opportunities (1was a bit far out) and we scored twice from them.
It has to be a low fast kick to generate the extra half second required to be successful with it.
I reckon by the 6N Finn and VDM will have improved execution significantly that defence will be terrified to leave that much space on the wing but also leave space in the middle for a late line by Hogg.
Not sure it will be widely adopted as it requires serious skills by the 10 and winger to execute
af73 wrote:
I get the defensive importance of Harris and Johnson/A.N Other but I feel we have lost as much as we have gained.
We don't ship 4 tries and 30+ points...nor do we threaten to score that anymore either. we are back to being a 15-21 point team who hope to hold the opposition to similar.
We scored 2 tries against SA and 2 against Oz. SA defence is like a wall, eng only scored 1 against Oz Last night and I doubt they will get more than 1 against SA.
We have looked a little jaggy in attack but it’s the autumn and a chance to experiment before the serious business of the 6N. I reckon by then we look much sharper and some of these shapes will really scare opposition.
We also stopped SA scoring for 30 mins and they never looked like scoring (the 2 they got could easily have been pulled for forward passes)
Big D wrote:
Scott looked to have lost a yard of pace, and his passing has never really been a strong point despite playing 10 when he was younger. He's 31 and seemingly at best 4th choice 12 if the rumours of Tuipulotu running at 12 all week are true. He isn't going to the world cup at 33.
We need to move the ball a hell of a lot better, if Johnson isn't fit then I'd rather see someone a bit more creative than Scott or Tuipulotu at 12.
Scott got a chance, but the days of a bosher 12 are over. Toony gave him a look and gave him a good crack at it but he doesn’t suit how we want to play.
South Africa were deserved winners today and I don't think many of us expected any other result. The scrum was pivotal and ZF just came up against a prop that he couldn't live with. It happens, and if it has ever happened to you then you know just how horrible a feeling it is. People commenting about his discipline, vast majority of penalties were at scrum time. When you feel that you are letting your teammates down it's very natural to try and force the game outside the scrum to try and make amends.
One thing that bugged me today was the referee allowing much more time for SA to get back when we had caught them in their 22. It wouldn't have made a difference to the result but there were a couple of times I remember them being snagged and vastly outnumbered in the ensuing ruck where we had 2 or 3 players arrive before any SA support, referee taking too long to catch up with play and only making a decision based on what he sees when he arrives. Given the split second nature of the calls around the breakdown when the referees are up with play, these looked really bad to me. Would expect that assistance from the TMO should be brought in here to allow some sort of consistency.
Agree with others at a seemingly lacking game plan, just tried to play heads up, reactive rugby and hope for the best.
Given how tight SA were defending and the fact we looked to the cross field kick to undo them on several occasions I'm surprised there weren't more attempts to create a 50/22 opportunity, especially with how little territory we had in the game. I can only remember one attempt and I think it was by Price, looked for all the world to be heading out but somehow the final bounce just brought it back infield.
I understand the kicks are a good tactic against SA’s mad drifting blitz defensive system, but we looked very lucky to actually retain the ball on any of those occasions.
Whether that’s execution or organisation I’m sure we could improve it, it just think with our awful ball retention this really put me on edge. Hogg’s first try was nonsense. It was fun to watch though.
I probably need to rewatch it but did Scott actually get the ball much in attack. You said above the days of the bosher are over (which I think is over simplifying things a lot) but I don’t actually remember him getting it much. I thought he would be offering that short/inside line off Russell to hold the defence but the ball was often kicked away or ended up on the floor. I liked the idea of this to take some pressure off but didn’t really work out.
I agree the pairing with Harris leaves a lot to be desired. Harris has become so key to our wide game in attack not by being a great attacker, but necessary to clear out rucks as we continue to get our players isolated out wide.
Maybe we had some 2nd/3rd phase plans to use Scott in a more effective way but he seemed to basically just be doing the same job clearing out after Haining charges in with a big red target on his chest. I find it hard to judge much at all from the way we played, but it’s probably fair to say he’s a bit too old and his ball skills aren’t up to what we need.
The general ball skills and sense of timing for a pass are just so weak throughout the team, we see it time and time again and it doesn’t seem to be improving much if at all. We can’t reliably outflank people with that kind of inaccuracy. Obviously NZ’s defence is massively different to SA’s, but you’d notice every time a player took the contact option the Irish players nearby immediately sprung in to action to support and clearout. I’d love to see a bit more of that.
A really frustrating game overall. Not because it was all bad by any stretch, but because it felt like SA didn’t really have to step up the gears to beat us. I think we could have pushed them much harder. The ref was pretty annoying but I wouldn’t put too much down to that.
whatisthejava wrote:
We scored 2 tries against SA and 2 against Oz. SA defence is like a wall, eng only scored 1 against Oz Last night and I doubt they will get more than 1 against SA.
I can't comment on Scotland's attack but England scored two tries v Aus. They also crossed the Aussie line three other times, which another day might bear fruit, which ameliorates the flukiness of the second try.
whatisthejava wrote:
We scored 2 tries against SA and 2 against Oz. SA defence is like a wall, eng only scored 1 against Oz Last night and I doubt they will get more than 1 against SA.
I can't comment on Scotland's attack but England scored two tries v Aus. They also crossed the Aussie line three other times, which another day might bear fruit, which ameliorates the flukiness of the second try.
Apologies yes, I’d forgotten the Jones try. The last try is difficult to analyze
Cameo wrote:I think set peice lost us that game. We were still in it when we lost a couple of attacking lineouts.
The back line is looking a bit clunky though. Matt Scott's hands did not particularly impress and it was hard for him to shine with his running against that defence.
Defence generally good, especially Vs the maul, but I think McLean got caught narrow on that first try.
Was it just me or were SA in touch in the lead up to their second try (while recovering the kick on the right touchline)?
I'd say this pretty much sums it up. If I had to pinpoint a moment when the match was lost it was with the missed lineout on the SA 5 meter line after a great kick from Hogg, good chase from Kinghorn and we had the momentum. You're always going to lose a couple against SA but de jager coming on really made a difference in that moment. Gilchrist has to take a bit of accountability there for a poor line out call.
Thought that Scott did a lot of unglamorous things well. It was always going to be tough going up against, for my money, the best 12 in the world. But he carried hard and didn't get himself exposed and turned over against a very aggressive defence. There were a couple of clunky handling moments but it's not as if johnson has particularly gotten the backline moving any more. Still think scotts angles of running work best from 13 though, would have liked to see him and Harris mix it up a bit more.
Maclean will learn from his mistake. His pace covers that try in domestic rugby. A necessary growing pain.
1. Bhatti
2. Turner
3. Fagerson
4. Cummings
5. Gilchrist
6. Ritchie
7. Watson
8. Bayliss
9. Price
10. Russell
11. Van der Merwe
12. Johnson
13. Harris
14. Graham
15. Hogg
16. McInally
17. Schoeman
18. Sebastian
19. Skinner
20. Richardson
21. M. Fagerson
22. Horne
23. Kinghorn
Looks to me that this is a dry run for a world cup group game testing the theory that Kinghorn covers all the back line. I don't like it, but it is clearly something they are looking at, probably worried over the physicality that SA and Ireland can bring up front.
Skinner a little hard done by (but I would say that as I am a fan of his), not sure why Bhatti and Schoeman are swapped over and looks like he has squeezed Fagerson on the bench because they don't think anyone else can play 8.
Back line is probably first choice, feels like they've thrown McLean to the wolves a little though.
Add Sutherland, Gray and any other tighthead other than Sebastian into the forward selection and it is as good as it is going to get for us.
Townsend seems a bit confused to me. Team is fine I guess, but he seems to have a way of dropping people in and out of the team that makes it very hard to get any real measure of their performance or consistency.
I like the team I think. If that is basically the first choice backline, then they need a bit of time together to get some fluency.
No idea on Bayliss but will be good to see him. Feels like a good set of forwards on the bench too. I am not a huge fan of the 6 2 split but it seems like most teams want to do it sometimes nowadays.
Big D wrote:1. Bhatti
2. Turner
3. Fagerson
4. Cummings
5. Gilchrist
6. Ritchie
7. Watson
8. Bayliss
9. Price
10. Russell
11. Van der Merwe
12. Johnson
13. Harris
14. Graham
15. Hogg
16. McInally
17. Schoeman
18. Sebastian
19. Skinner
20. Richardson
21. M. Fagerson
22. Horne
23. Kinghorn
Looks to me that this is a dry run for a world cup group game testing the theory that Kinghorn covers all the back line. I don't like it, but it is clearly something they are looking at, probably worried over the physicality that SA and Ireland can bring up front.
This is the positive interpretation. The cynic in me says that toonie wants to play a forward orientated game today, sap the Japanese legs with many mauls and then double down in the second half. Not sure that's a strategy that will ever suit this group of players but worth trying I suppose.
Would have like DVDM to get a rest and for McLean and Graham to both have had a run out. Duhan will play plenty for worcester in the coming weeks. Will also be watching johnson closely today to see how his distribution looks
Big D wrote:1. Bhatti
2. Turner
3. Fagerson
4. Cummings
5. Gilchrist
6. Ritchie
7. Watson
8. Bayliss
9. Price
10. Russell
11. Van der Merwe
12. Johnson
13. Harris
14. Graham
15. Hogg
16. McInally
17. Schoeman
18. Sebastian
19. Skinner
20. Richardson
21. M. Fagerson
22. Horne
23. Kinghorn
Looks to me that this is a dry run for a world cup group game testing the theory that Kinghorn covers all the back line. I don't like it, but it is clearly something they are looking at, probably worried over the physicality that SA and Ireland can bring up front.
This is the positive interpretation. The cynic in me says that toonie wants to play a forward orientated game today, sap the Japanese legs with many mauls and then double down in the second half. Not sure that's a strategy that will ever suit this group of players but worth trying I suppose.
Would have like DVDM to get a rest and for McLean and Graham to both have had a run out. Duhan will play plenty for worcester in the coming weeks. Will also be watching johnson closely today to see how his distribution looks
If it was designed purely for mauling they really shouldn't have picked 2 and a half back rowers on the bench.
Part of the reason I don't like the 6/2 split is that there are few back rows that can effectively cover back row and second row to compliment the usual second row in the 19 shirt.
Having extra back rows desn?t mean a whole lot if your tight 5 is getting gubbed.
A 6/2 split could potentially work (at least up front) if we have Cummings and Gray starting with GG (or AN Other) plus Skinner and a back row on the bench, because it means v Ireland and SA it gives an option of swapping the whole tight 5 or bulking up the back row.
I don't think it works with Kinghorn as I don't think he is close to ready to cover 10.
Big D wrote:1. Bhatti
2. Turner
3. Fagerson
4. Cummings
5. Gilchrist
6. Ritchie
7. Watson
8. Bayliss
9. Price
10. Russell
11. Van der Merwe
12. Johnson
13. Harris
14. Graham
15. Hogg
16. McInally
17. Schoeman
18. Sebastian
19. Skinner
20. Richardson
21. M. Fagerson
22. Horne
23. Kinghorn
Looks to me that this is a dry run for a world cup group game testing the theory that Kinghorn covers all the back line. I don't like it, but it is clearly something they are looking at, probably worried over the physicality that SA and Ireland can bring up front.
This is the positive interpretation. The cynic in me says that toonie wants to play a forward orientated game today, sap the Japanese legs with many mauls and then double down in the second half. Not sure that's a strategy that will ever suit this group of players but worth trying I suppose.
Would have like DVDM to get a rest and for McLean and Graham to both have had a run out. Duhan will play plenty for worcester in the coming weeks. Will also be watching johnson closely today to see how his distribution looks
If it was designed purely for mauling they really shouldn't have picked 2 and a half back rowers on the bench.
Part of the reason I don't like the 6/2 split is that there are few back rows that can effectively cover back row and second row to compliment the usual second row in the 19 shirt.
Having extra back rows desn?t mean a whole lot if your tight 5 is getting gubbed.
A 6/2 split could potentially work (at least up front) if we have Cummings and Gray starting with GG (or AN Other) plus Skinner and a back row on the bench, because it means v Ireland and SA it gives an option of swapping the whole tight 5 or bulking up the back row.
I don't think it works with Kinghorn as I don't think he is close to ready to cover 10.
Bayliss is a big backrow/lock hybrid isn't he and I thought that Richardson was in that mould as well (though I'll admit I can't recall having ever seeing him play)?
I like Kinghorn as a player but I tend to agree. Hastings isn't as good a fullback or wing as him, but he's a much better ten. I'd feel much comfortable with him off the bench for early injuries.
I am soooo looking forward to the day I can watch a rugby match and no one mentions "small margins".
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It was so much easier to blame Them. It was bleakly depressing to think They were Us. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
I can't wait for the next round of "how good is Finn Russell"?
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It was so much easier to blame Them. It was bleakly depressing to think They were Us. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
