EPS Watch / Player Form Thread

[Mellsblue]

I think the point is that the players want to play. Certainly the two I know about want to stake claims early in the season. As above, a blanket rest period doesn’t suit some players.

I'd argue, strongly, that the point is that players want to play - and need to be protected from themselves.

Players also want to play after a head knock - that doesn't make it okay to do so.

Take the example of England’s three fullbacks on England’s summer tour. Furbank played no matches, Freeman played two and Steward played three. All had totally different loadings throughout the tour, not to mention the entire season. With all the GPS and smart gumshield data a blanket rest period is years out of date.

There's more to it than just physically playing. I've allowed elsewhere that I don't mind eating into the 10 weeks for those not playing in the last test - but they're still training, they're still in the gym, they're still in analysis meetings... they're still psychologically knackered.

As above, players need to be protected from themselves, and from their coaches. A blanker break may be out of date, but it's a hell of a lot better than any other option.

The players should have some autonomy. Given they’re on record that they would like shorter seasons and were brought in to discussions on the new ‘global’ season, it seems strange to completely remove them from this decision.

Obviously nowhere near my area of expertise, but I fail to see how tailoring breaks for each individual based on their, accurately measured, workloads can’t be achieved and can’t be the best case scenario. Sale did it with Tuilagi and kept him fit long enough for Jones to break him. Quins managed players workload so well, based on gps and smart gumshields, that they came from nowhere to win the Prem final.

[Mellsblue]

Further to that, concussion protocols are based on each individual rather than a blanket rest period. Whether you think the current rules are too strict, too soft or about right nobody is asking for a one size fits all model.

[Which Tyler]

The players should have some autonomy. Given they’re on record that they would like shorter seasons and were brought in to discussions on the new ‘global’ season, it seems strange to completely remove them from this decision.

Obviously nowhere near my area of expertise, but I fail to see how tailoring breaks for each individual based on their, accurately measured, workloads can’t be achieved and can’t be the best case scenario. Sale did it with Tuilagi and kept him fit long enough for Jones to break him. Quins managed players workload so well, based on gps and smart gumshields, that they came from nowhere to win the Prem final.

I'm not denying them autonomy, nor am I preventing tailoring things based on individual needs.
I'm applying a minimum requirement as being a minimum requirement.

I'm also saying that players and coaches are absolutely terrible at tailoring things to an individuals needs, because they're simply not qualified to do so - that's down the medical (physical and mental) health staff to do, it's literally their job.

Examples of players requiring more than the minimum is a terrible argument for suggesting that the minimum is too much.

Further to that, concussion protocols are based on each individual rather than a blanket rest period. Whether you think the current rules are too strict, too soft or about right nobody is asking for a one size fits all model.

And thank you for providing me with proof of my point.
There's a compulsory minimum, with "tailoring" beyond that - exactly as I'm suggesting.

[Banquo]

I think the point is that the players want to play. Certainly the two I know about want to stake claims early in the season. As above, a blanket rest period doesn’t suit some players.

I'd argue, strongly, that the point is that players want to play - and need to be protected from themselves.
Coaches also want their players to play - and players need to be protected from their coaches too.

Players also want to play after a head knock - that doesn't make it okay to do so.

As for my Fry clip - this sort of thing is literally the job of the RPA.

Take the example of England’s three fullbacks on England’s summer tour. Furbank played no matches, Freeman played two and Steward played three. All had totally different loadings throughout the tour, not to mention the entire season. With all the GPS and smart gumshield data a blanket rest period is years out of date.

There's more to it than just physically playing. I've allowed elsewhere that I don't mind eating into the 10 weeks for those not playing in the last test - but they're still training, they're still in the gym, they're still in analysis meetings... they're still psychologically knackered.

As above, players need to be protected from themselves, and from their coaches. A blanker break may be out of date, but it's a hell of a lot better than any other option.
If you've got an alternative, with any sort of science behind it, then I'm all ears. As it is, a continuous break is by far the best thing for these players.


On the one hand, we've got Genge banging the drum for player welfare, and being better looked after (and better paid) by the club. On the other hand, we've got Ellis Genge refusing to look after himself because welfare be damned, he wants to play.

As above, though I quoted their acronym wrongly , RPA are calling the players and telling them they can insist on their 10 weeks. But it’s at the players discretion rightly or wrongly. It does need to be a grown up and informed conversation tho

[Mellsblue]

The players should have some autonomy. Given they’re on record that they would like shorter seasons and were brought in to discussions on the new ‘global’ season, it seems strange to completely remove them from this decision.

Obviously nowhere near my area of expertise, but I fail to see how tailoring breaks for each individual based on their, accurately measured, workloads can’t be achieved and can’t be the best case scenario. Sale did it with Tuilagi and kept him fit long enough for Jones to break him. Quins managed players workload so well, based on gps and smart gumshields, that they came from nowhere to win the Prem final.

I'm not denying them autonomy, nor am I preventing tailoring things based on individual needs.
I'm applying a minimum requirement as being a minimum requirement.

I'm also saying that players and coaches are absolutely terrible at tailoring things to an individuals needs, because they're simply not qualified to do so - that's down the medical (physical and mental) health staff to do, it's literally their job.

Examples of players requiring more than the minimum is a terrible argument for suggesting that the minimum is too much.

Further to that, concussion protocols are based on each individual rather than a blanket rest period. Whether you think the current rules are too strict, too soft or about right nobody is asking for a one size fits all model.

And thank you for providing me with proof of my point.
There's a compulsory minimum, with "tailoring" beyond that - exactly as I'm suggesting.

But your minimum is a lot higher than clearly many people want it to be. Virtually nobody is arguing to lessen the mandatory rest period for the concussion protocol and literally no one is wilfully breaching it.

‘Examples of players requiring more than the minimum is a terrible argument for suggesting that the minimum is too much.’
Not sure how you’ve come to this conclusion as it’s not what I’m saying.

[pandion]

Appearance money and win bonuses in the contracts maybe?

[Timbo]

With concussion there’s also guarding against the (strong) possibility that players will be cognitively impaired. They need someone to take the decision making burden off of them. Nowell and Genge are very experienced players in full knowledge of how a long professional season impacts their bodies. If they want to play then they are fully capable of giving informed consent, unlike somebody recovering from brain trauma.

The returning England players couldn’t have any more leverage over their clubs/coaches. They are all at the top of their sport, most on multi year guaranteed contracts worth hundreds of thousands of £££’s. There’s very little a coach could say to force them back on the field before the 10 weeks are up.

[Banquo]

With concussion there’s also guarding against the (strong) possibility that players will be cognitively impaired. They need someone to take the decision making burden off of them. Nowell and Genge are very experienced players in full knowledge of how a long professional season impacts their bodies. If they want to play then they are fully capable of giving informed consent, unlike somebody recovering from brain trauma.

The returning England players couldn’t have any more leverage over their clubs/coaches. They are all at the top of their sport, most on multi year guaranteed contracts worth hundreds of thousands of £££’s. There’s very little a coach could say to force them back on the field before the 10 weeks are up.

indeed.

[Which Tyler]

[Mellsblue]

Quins asked the RFU for permission to play Smith this weekend but were rebuffed.

[Stom]

Quins asked the RFU for permission to play Smith this weekend but were rebuffed.

While Sarries were given permission to play Itoje, the Vunipolae, George, and Farrell...

Stinks.

[Mellsblue]

Quins asked the RFU for permission to play Smith this weekend but were rebuffed.

While Sarries were given permission to play Itoje, the Vunipolae, George, and Farrell...

Stinks.

Think it’s based on workload last season.

[Which Tyler]

I'm sure Marcus's 1550 minuteswere a lot more wearing than Owen's 1990 minutes

[Stom]

Quins asked the RFU for permission to play Smith this weekend but were rebuffed.

While Sarries were given permission to play Itoje, the Vunipolae, George, and Farrell...

Stinks.

Think it’s based on workload last season.

Yeah, only George and Mako played fewer minutes than Smith. The other 3 all played more. It stinks.

It's either a rule or it's not. You can't screw teams based on it, and also not screw the most evil team in the league that no one except Convex likes and he's not here anymore.

[Mellsblue]

I'm sure Marcus's 1550 minuteswere a lot more wearing than Owen's 1990 minutes

How sure? You’ve included 20/21 mins. Quick maths as I’m watching the match but Smith played approx 170 more mins in 21/22.

[Which Tyler]

I'm sure Marcus's 1550 minuteswere a lot more wearing than Owen's 1990 minutes

How sure? You’ve included 20/21 mins. Quick maths as I’m watching the match but Smith played approx 170 more mins in 21/22.

I literally linked it.
If statbunker have it wrong, then that's on them

[Mellsblue]

I'm sure Marcus's 1550 minuteswere a lot more wearing than Owen's 1990 minutes

How sure? You’ve included 20/21 mins. Quick maths as I’m watching the match but Smith played approx 170 more mins in 21/22.

I literally linked it.
If statbunker have it wrong, then that's on them

I followed your links and they include the 20/21 season. Smith played just over two full matches more last season…

[Which Tyler]

Then statbunker acrewed up. What do you want me to say?

[Mellsblue]

Always check your sources, especially if you’re going to make such a condescending post.

[Which Tyler]

Yeah I'm the condescending one.

You're right, I didn't double check a trusted source, I simply linked to it.

[Which Tyler]

https://www.bathrugby.com/club-news/inj ... eno-obano/

[Puja]

https://www.bathrugby.com/club-news/inj ... eno-obano/

Poor Beno. Never even an inch of good luck.

Puja

[Puja]

Not that I think anyone in England's got the finances to sign him right now, but 18 year old, 6ft 4, 23st 6, and Leicester-born, back row Posolo Tuilagi made his professional debut for Perpignan the other week. While the tales of Brian and Freddie Jnr will inform that a Tuilagi surname won't necessarily guarantee you making it as a professional (although it will guarantee you a place all through the Leicester academy if you want it, no matter how unlikely it is that you'll make it as a pro), he's a big old lad for an 18 year old - if he knows how to use it like his dad Henry did, might be worth a scout to see if we can stop the French from "poaching" him*.

Puja

*sarcasm - he might not be born French, but I'm assuming he's lived there most of his life if he followed his dad around.

[Epaminondas Pules]

He's already played France U18s, but that's more usually down to where you live.

[Timbo]

Sam Simmonds offski to Montpellier for next season. Reckon he won’t be the last big name England player heading off overseas post World Cup.