Autumn International Squad

[Mikey Brown]

Interesting looking trend in this graph. The worse we are now, the better we'll be in a years time?

[Oakboy]

Interesting looking trend in this graph. The worse we are now, the better we'll be in a years time?

MB, that is a magnificent bit of straw-clutching!!!

[Mellsblue]

Please tell me you’ve taken the results vs Italy out of those stats.

[Mellsblue]

As we’re going all statto:

[badback]

Finally managed to watch that game. Pretty dire stuff.

Having watched this England for years now my main feeling is that their core problem is a lack of shall we say brain power. They do dumb things and don’t do clever things. The only player in this group that I have heard speak with anything like insight is Itoje. How on earth has he managed to avoid being captain for his club let alone for his country? If I remember correctly he was captain of an all conquering England under 21s. You might think that would be a bit of a hint.

Totally agree, said the same about a year ago!

Ah! Good. Missed that

[jimKRFC]

Interesting looking trend in this graph. The worse we are now, the better we'll be in a years time?

I wonder if there's correlation to the "peak" performances and Ford being in the side?

[Banquo]

Finally managed to watch that game. Pretty dire stuff.

Having watched this England for years now my main feeling is that their core problem is a lack of shall we say brain power. They do dumb things and don’t do clever things. The only player in this group that I have heard speak with anything like insight is Itoje. How on earth has he managed to avoid being captain for his club let alone for his country? If I remember correctly he was captain of an all conquering England under 21s. You might think that would be a bit of a hint.

Totally agree, said the same about a year ago!

Ah! Good. Missed that

and in the match thread!!very frustrating to see.

[twitchy]

Is there a stat about missed passes? I only really watch england properly but I can't remember watching another top team that the most capped ever scrum half passes it into touch and the 12 has less passing ability than the tight head prop?

[FKAS]

Is there a stat about missed passes? I only really watch england properly but I can't remember watching another top team that the most capped ever scrum half passes it into touch and the 12 has less passing ability than the tight head prop?

Two things annoyed be greatly at that point in the game. First was Youngs shonky passing, he's better than that and should be dropped as a result. Second was that he was clearly annoyed the players weren't where he was expecting them to be, what attacking sessions are the coaches working on because if you are going to play with a lack of structure you've got to ensure the players are all in sync. They can't be looking for each other they've got to know, that only comes with drills and time spent creating that knowledge.

[Banquo]

Is there a stat about missed passes? I only really watch england properly but I can't remember watching another top team that the most capped ever scrum half passes it into touch and the 12 has less passing ability than the tight head prop?

Two things annoyed be greatly at that point in the game. First was Youngs shonky passing, he's better than that and should be dropped as a result. Second was that he was clearly annoyed the players weren't where he was expecting them to be, what attacking sessions are the coaches working on because if you are going to play with a lack of structure you've got to ensure the players are all in sync. They can't be looking for each other they've got to know, that only comes with drills and time spent creating that knowledge.

Youngs passing has always been pretty weak left to right- in fairness in common with a lot of right handed 9's- tends to pick it up and adjust the ball for a spin pass as well as at least two steps to help with power....but on Sunday he was doing a weird sort of push pass going right. It wasn't pretty. JVP at least when he goes right has only the one step and some good zip on the pass.

On the unstructured/players in the right place, that does take a lot of drills, but more importantly small sided opposed games, so (say) if a player gets caught in a ruck, or has to unexpectedly resource a ruck, then the other players react accordingly. Mind, the basics of support play remain the same- arrowhead around the carrier, keep your depth etc, its just making sure the players are there. If not, communication.
(there's a bit of an irony in calling it unstructured when there is nearly always a 'call' to go with it, and that's what Faz and Youngs spent a lot of time grumbling over)

[Mikey Brown]

I hadn't noticed Nowell's input on the Carerras try that some of you mentioned earlier, but saw the clip pop up just now and it's not good.



Even with Nowell's pace he absolutely would have stopped Carerras being able to run at 45 degrees away from Steward. Really awful.

[Banquo]

I hadn't noticed Nowell's input on the Carerras try that some of you mentioned earlier, but saw the clip pop up just now and it's not good.



Even with Nowell's pace he absolutely would have stopped Carerras being able to run at 45 degrees away from Steward. Really awful.

Absolutely, great spot from Timbo. Faz wouldn't have caught him but could have been competing when Nowell brought him to ground. Really bad, and an example of players with a poor mindset.

Mind, trying to work that sort of play with Manu at 9 and Sinckler at 10 has to be questionable in the first, even if there were men over (decent bit of defending to pressurise Faz tbf).

[Oakboy]

Is there a stat about missed passes? I only really watch england properly but I can't remember watching another top team that the most capped ever scrum half passes it into touch and the 12 has less passing ability than the tight head prop?

Two things annoyed be greatly at that point in the game. First was Youngs shonky passing, he's better than that and should be dropped as a result. Second was that he was clearly annoyed the players weren't where he was expecting them to be, what attacking sessions are the coaches working on because if you are going to play with a lack of structure you've got to ensure the players are all in sync. They can't be looking for each other they've got to know, that only comes with drills and time spent creating that knowledge.

Youngs passing has always been pretty weak left to right- in fairness in common with a lot of right handed 9's- tends to pick it up and adjust the ball for a spin pass as well as at least two steps to help with power....but on Sunday he was doing a weird sort of push pass going right. It wasn't pretty. JVP at least when he goes right has only the one step and some good zip on the pass.

On the unstructured/players in the right place, that does take a lot of drills, but more importantly small sided opposed games, so (say) if a player gets caught in a ruck, or has to unexpectedly resource a ruck, then the other players react accordingly. Mind, the basics of support play remain the same- arrowhead around the carrier, keep your depth etc, its just making sure the players are there. If not, communication.
(there's a bit of an irony in calling it unstructured when there is nearly always a 'call' to go with it, and that's what Faz and Youngs spent a lot of time grumbling over)

Interesting explanation as always, thanks. What grates is that Barbarians' teams can look more slick after a few days together. How many caps/training camp days could our lot muster between them? Even Smith can't be regarded as a rookie any more.

[Mikey Brown]

Two things annoyed be greatly at that point in the game. First was Youngs shonky passing, he's better than that and should be dropped as a result. Second was that he was clearly annoyed the players weren't where he was expecting them to be, what attacking sessions are the coaches working on because if you are going to play with a lack of structure you've got to ensure the players are all in sync. They can't be looking for each other they've got to know, that only comes with drills and time spent creating that knowledge.

Youngs passing has always been pretty weak left to right- in fairness in common with a lot of right handed 9's- tends to pick it up and adjust the ball for a spin pass as well as at least two steps to help with power....but on Sunday he was doing a weird sort of push pass going right. It wasn't pretty. JVP at least when he goes right has only the one step and some good zip on the pass.

On the unstructured/players in the right place, that does take a lot of drills, but more importantly small sided opposed games, so (say) if a player gets caught in a ruck, or has to unexpectedly resource a ruck, then the other players react accordingly. Mind, the basics of support play remain the same- arrowhead around the carrier, keep your depth etc, its just making sure the players are there. If not, communication.
(there's a bit of an irony in calling it unstructured when there is nearly always a 'call' to go with it, and that's what Faz and Youngs spent a lot of time grumbling over)

Interesting explanation as always, thanks. What grates is that Barbarians' teams can look more slick after a few days together. How many caps/training camp days could our lot muster between them? Even Smith can't be regarded as a rookie any more.

I'm sort of worried about Smith spending another season with Jones and just sort of fizzling out altogether as an attacking force.

[Banquo]

Youngs passing has always been pretty weak left to right- in fairness in common with a lot of right handed 9's- tends to pick it up and adjust the ball for a spin pass as well as at least two steps to help with power....but on Sunday he was doing a weird sort of push pass going right. It wasn't pretty. JVP at least when he goes right has only the one step and some good zip on the pass.

On the unstructured/players in the right place, that does take a lot of drills, but more importantly small sided opposed games, so (say) if a player gets caught in a ruck, or has to unexpectedly resource a ruck, then the other players react accordingly. Mind, the basics of support play remain the same- arrowhead around the carrier, keep your depth etc, its just making sure the players are there. If not, communication.
(there's a bit of an irony in calling it unstructured when there is nearly always a 'call' to go with it, and that's what Faz and Youngs spent a lot of time grumbling over)

Interesting explanation as always, thanks. What grates is that Barbarians' teams can look more slick after a few days together. How many caps/training camp days could our lot muster between them? Even Smith can't be regarded as a rookie any more.

I'm sort of worried about Smith spending another season with Jones and just sort of fizzling out altogether as an attacking force.

Another season with Faz is what will kill him. And Eddie has pretty much said that is what will happen.

[Banquo]

Can't remember if I said this elsewhere, but there was a fascinating chat between Gatland and Warburton at half time about one of Gatland's key coaching messages- (something like) work hard on things that need no talent (apparently nicked from Paul O'Connell) e.g chase kicks, get up quickly, ......and always chase a runner who is ostensibly clear .

Seriously, it is a great message for any coaches out there.

[FKAS]

I hadn't noticed Nowell's input on the Carerras try that some of you mentioned earlier, but saw the clip pop up just now and it's not good.



Even with Nowell's pace he absolutely would have stopped Carerras being able to run at 45 degrees away from Steward. Really awful.

100% agree. Nowell has no excuse not to chase and would have hemmed Carerras in with Steward to ensure he couldn't get away.

Not sure why Farrell called it out the back either, really wasn't on with ball that slow. Just let Sinckler pop to Hill on his shoulder and recycle.

[fivepointer]

When did international players stop playing to the whistle? Basic stuff, this.

[Banquo]

When did international players stop playing to the whistle? Basic stuff, this.

straight to the point and spot on.

[Beasties]

Finally managed to watch that game. Pretty dire stuff.

Having watched this England for years now my main feeling is that their core problem is a lack of shall we say brain power. They do dumb things and don’t do clever things. The only player in this group that I have heard speak with anything like insight is Itoje. How on earth has he managed to avoid being captain for his club let alone for his country? If I remember correctly he was captain of an all conquering England under 21s. You might think that would be a bit of a hint.

Totally agree, said the same about a year ago!

Ah! Good. Missed that

Did Itoje not captain Sarries quite a lot when he first started playing for them? I found it remarkable at his age. Or have I imagined that?

[Beasties]

Two things annoyed be greatly at that point in the game. First was Youngs shonky passing, he's better than that and should be dropped as a result. Second was that he was clearly annoyed the players weren't where he was expecting them to be, what attacking sessions are the coaches working on because if you are going to play with a lack of structure you've got to ensure the players are all in sync. They can't be looking for each other they've got to know, that only comes with drills and time spent creating that knowledge.

Youngs passing has always been pretty weak left to right- in fairness in common with a lot of right handed 9's- tends to pick it up and adjust the ball for a spin pass as well as at least two steps to help with power....but on Sunday he was doing a weird sort of push pass going right. It wasn't pretty. JVP at least when he goes right has only the one step and some good zip on the pass.

On the unstructured/players in the right place, that does take a lot of drills, but more importantly small sided opposed games, so (say) if a player gets caught in a ruck, or has to unexpectedly resource a ruck, then the other players react accordingly. Mind, the basics of support play remain the same- arrowhead around the carrier, keep your depth etc, its just making sure the players are there. If not, communication.
(there's a bit of an irony in calling it unstructured when there is nearly always a 'call' to go with it, and that's what Faz and Youngs spent a lot of time grumbling over)

Interesting explanation as always, thanks. What grates is that Barbarians' teams can look more slick after a few days together. How many caps/training camp days could our lot muster between them? Even Smith can't be regarded as a rookie any more.

This is what really rankles with me. The more time we spend in camp the worse our performances become.

[Mr Mwenda]

When did international players stop playing to the whistle? Basic stuff, this.

It is particularly irritating from players who are normally lauded for their workrates!

[Puja]

I hadn't noticed Nowell's input on the Carerras try that some of you mentioned earlier, but saw the clip pop up just now and it's not good.



Even with Nowell's pace he absolutely would have stopped Carerras being able to run at 45 degrees away from Steward. Really awful.

Oof. That is not a pretty replay to watch and a straight droppable offence from Nowell.

Farrell I can mildly find excuses for, as he was never in a position to stop Carreras and and argument could be made that he provided more utility in flapping his arms at the referee and protesting in the hope that a whistle would be blown (not that that's a great excuse, but it is something). Nowell on the other hand is probably the only player on the pitch in position to stop Carreras and he just... doesn't. My daughter's U7s are taught to play to the whistle, but he looks at an Argentine running towards his unguarded line and seems to come to the conclusion that it's nothing to do with him.

I don't even know what he's doing in that position in the first place. He's just ambling somewhere. No-one knows where. He's just on a gentle jog. He wasn't even moving to do anything useful in the abortive attack, he was just gently jogging. Perhaps his step count was low on his Fitbit and he's just getting in a quick ramble?

I haven't seen anyone that confused on a rugby pitch since watching [Redacted] wandering about against Australia.

Puja

[Puja]

Totally agree, said the same about a year ago!

Ah! Good. Missed that

Did Itoje not captain Sarries quite a lot when he first started playing for them? I found it remarkable at his age. Or have I imagined that?

He captained England U20s and led Sarries in the Mickey Mouse Cup, but in first XV games, he was always behind Barritt.

Puja

[Banquo]

I hadn't noticed Nowell's input on the Carerras try that some of you mentioned earlier, but saw the clip pop up just now and it's not good.



Even with Nowell's pace he absolutely would have stopped Carerras being able to run at 45 degrees away from Steward. Really awful.

Oof. That is not a pretty replay to watch and a straight droppable offence from Nowell.

Farrell I can mildly find excuses for, as he was never in a position to stop Carreras and and argument could be made that he provided more utility in flapping his arms at the referee and protesting in the hope that a whistle would be blown (not that that's a great excuse, but it is something). Nowell on the other hand is probably the only player on the pitch in position to stop Carreras and he just... doesn't. My daughter's U7s are taught to play to the whistle, but he looks at an Argentine running towards his unguarded line and seems to come to the conclusion that it's nothing to do with him.

I don't even know what he's doing in that position in the first place. He's just ambling somewhere. No-one knows where. He's just on a gentle jog. He wasn't even moving to do anything useful in the abortive attack, he was just gently jogging. Perhaps his step count was low on his Fitbit and he's just getting in a quick ramble?

I haven't seen anyone that confused on a rugby pitch since watching [Redacted] wandering about against Australia.

Puja

....nah on Faz, had Carreras been caught, as he should have by a Nowell Steward combo, ad been tackled/had to pass/had to kick then he has a part to play if he gets in the vicinity. Poor.