The Thin Blue Line

[morepork]

How long do they need to "sort themselves out"? If the Po-lice are a loose assemblage of individuals, how exactly do they manage to time and time again cover up the behaviour of many within their ranks under the umbrella of a protected organisation? I truly do not understand any argument claiming that organisation is not inherently fucked up.

[Son of Mathonwy]

I’m not going to quote SOM as it’s a long post. I take your point about there being stuff to criticise. There are always individual officers who fall short and any large organisation isn’t perfect. I’m definitely not suggesting the police are perfect. But I do take issue with them being singled out for the charge of institutional racism when they have to sweep up the problems of society. They are too easy a target.

Technically the elected police commissioners should be holding their forces to account as well. But we all know that’s a joke election. Perhaps if people turned out to vote properly then sensible candidates could properly hold the chief Constable accountable.

Or indeed if the Met's commissioner was elected at all.

[Son of Mathonwy]

Yet more about the Met & corruption:

https://www.justiceinspectorates.gov.uk ... r-purpose/

[kk67]

There were a couple of programs about celebrities who were caught under operation Yewtree last night. All the familiar faces, Glitter, Talbot, Harris and Savile but not a mention anywhere about the hundreds of police officers, prison officers and faith leaders who were also caught consuming child pornography. The 'establishment' have a reason for not reporting these cases and it's the same justification for all of them, and it goes something like this:
'Don't report abuses in the prison service/police force/organised religion as it undermines the public's confidence'.
These cases continue to be prosecuted in the courts but the only place you will see them being reported is in the local press.

If reform is to come in the police force then it has to start in recruitment and training. It's almost impossible to escape the feeling that something is going very wrong at Hendon.

[Eugene Wrayburn]

Unfortunately Sandydragon shows exactly why this is an unending clusterfuck. He's very obviously a decent person. But he doesn't give enough of a shit about the people in the police who are not. There's always an excuse. There's always a reason. To people like him it doesn't matter whether there is a report showing that the police are (still) institutionally racist, the bigger issue must be societal. It doesn't matter if the research shows that black people are disproportionately stopped, that must be because they are disproportionately criminal - the gloss that it's because of societal reasons isn't the defence that Sandy thinks it is.

Until the decent people in the police stop thinking that the way of protecting the institution is to sweep obvious wrongdoing and structural problems under the carpet this will go on. Until police officers are prepared to challenge each other and say "Wait, why are you checking the numberplate of that nice car? Is it just because the driver is black?" and be backed by their management for doing so then this will go on. Until there is a genuine penalty for stopping kids randomly then this will go on. Until we can do better than a Met Police Commissioner actively obstructing a corruption investigation then this will go on. It's fucking frustrating as a person who has spent most of their life as a prosecutor.

[Sandydragon]

Unfortunately Sandydragon shows exactly why this is an unending clusterfuck. He's very obviously a decent person. But he doesn't give enough of a shit about the people in the police who are not. There's always an excuse. There's always a reason. To people like him it doesn't matter whether there is a report showing that the police are (still) institutionally racist, the bigger issue must be societal. It doesn't matter if the research shows that black people are disproportionately stopped, that must be because they are disproportionately criminal - the gloss that it's because of societal reasons isn't the defence that Sandy thinks it is.

Until the decent people in the police stop thinking that the way of protecting the institution is to sweep obvious wrongdoing and structural problems under the carpet this will go on. Until police officers are prepared to challenge each other and say "Wait, why are you checking the numberplate of that nice car? Is it just because the driver is black?" and be backed by their management for doing so then this will go on. Until there is a genuine penalty for stopping kids randomly then this will go on. Until we can do better than a Met Police Commissioner actively obstructing a corruption investigation then this will go on. It's fucking frustrating as a person who has spent most of their life as a prosecutor.

And yet you ignore evidence of the police not investigating non white suspects due to the potential to be seen to be racist. And has it occurred to you that most of the residents in high crime areas want the police to reduce crime levels? Is there a correlation between high crime areas, very high levels of poverty and ethnicity? Often yes there is. That means that vehicle stops and stop and search will be disproportionate. You wouldn’t do stop and search in area with no crime. Where would be the justification? Have you spent any time in sink estates recently?

Meanwhile smug lawyers moan about the police whilst wringing their hands at the levels of knife violence where black children are murdered almost daily and the police can’t be effective in responding due to fears of being called out as racist. It would almost be worthy of a monty python sketch if it weren’t actually serious.

I’ll repeat myself for the hard of understanding. Poverty leads to crime. Police respond to crime. If a poor area is predominantly ethnic then that will reflect in the statistics.

Here you go some academic research following vehicle stops over a seven year period which suggest that racial profiling is rare.

https://theconversation.com/amp/we-spen ... und-149563

Fancy commenting on the accusation that black suspects are dealt with more harshly by the courts?

[morepork]

Christ on a bike...

[Mellsblue]

Christ on a bike...

The copper’s reaction would probably depend on whether they believed in white Christ, brown Christ or no Christ…. and whether the bike had been reported as stolen.

[Sandydragon]

Christ on a bike...

So you don’t think that any of that is true? Whatever. I’m guessing my understanding of crime and poverty in this country might be a bit closer than yours.

[morepork]

Po-lice are under reporting stop and search for fear of perceived racism, but black men are still disproportionately over represented in stop and search statistics that are available.

That's quite the rebuttal.

[Eugene Wrayburn]

Unfortunately Sandydragon shows exactly why this is an unending clusterfuck. He's very obviously a decent person. But he doesn't give enough of a shit about the people in the police who are not. There's always an excuse. There's always a reason. To people like him it doesn't matter whether there is a report showing that the police are (still) institutionally racist, the bigger issue must be societal. It doesn't matter if the research shows that black people are disproportionately stopped, that must be because they are disproportionately criminal - the gloss that it's because of societal reasons isn't the defence that Sandy thinks it is.

Until the decent people in the police stop thinking that the way of protecting the institution is to sweep obvious wrongdoing and structural problems under the carpet this will go on. Until police officers are prepared to challenge each other and say "Wait, why are you checking the numberplate of that nice car? Is it just because the driver is black?" and be backed by their management for doing so then this will go on. Until there is a genuine penalty for stopping kids randomly then this will go on. Until we can do better than a Met Police Commissioner actively obstructing a corruption investigation then this will go on. It's fucking frustrating as a person who has spent most of their life as a prosecutor.

And yet you ignore evidence of the police not investigating non white suspects due to the potential to be seen to be racist. And has it occurred to you that most of the residents in high crime areas want the police to reduce crime levels? Is there a correlation between high crime areas, very high levels of poverty and ethnicity? Often yes there is. That means that vehicle stops and stop and search will be disproportionate. You wouldn’t do stop and search in area with no crime. Where would be the justification? Have you spent any time in sink estates recently?

Meanwhile smug lawyers moan about the police whilst wringing their hands at the levels of knife violence where black children are murdered almost daily and the police can’t be effective in responding due to fears of being called out as racist. It would almost be worthy of a monty python sketch if it weren’t actually serious.

I’ll repeat myself for the hard of understanding. Poverty leads to crime. Police respond to crime. If a poor area is predominantly ethnic then that will reflect in the statistics.

Here you go some academic research following vehicle stops over a seven year period which suggest that racial profiling is rare.

https://theconversation.com/amp/we-spen ... und-149563

Fancy commenting on the accusation that black suspects are dealt with more harshly by the courts?

I mean, you couldn't more spectacularly prove my point if you tried.

What is it exactly that you're claiming the police don't do for fear of being accused of being racist? Needlessly stop random black people? Because I have never heard of a police officer saying "You know what we had reasonable cause for belief that he was up to no good but I just decided to let him away with it because he was black and L was scared." I've seen and had presented to me plenty of stops for walking/driving whilst black though.

I've done you the courtesy of reading the article that you linked. It doesn't say what you think it says. It says in witnessing (only) 146 stops they did not witness overt racial prejudice or profiling. That doesn't mean that there wasn't. Indeed one could reasonably infer from what they say that they believe there to be a bias - hence their mention of the subjective bases for reasonable grounds for believing and the fact that the police seemed to be finding alternatives to "smell of cannabis". That's quite apart from the fact that if you've got a researcher sitting in your car you are hardly likely to be overtly racist.

As for your whataboutism I'll respond pretending it's in good faith because maybe you'll see how people expect you to respond. The CPS has a problem with overcharging black suspects. The judges/magistrates have a problem over-sentencing them. See? That's not tricky. Now having acknowledged the problem there's some prospect of changing it.

[morepork]

This thread is like being stuck in a taxi in traffic on the way to the airport, and the driver opens with, "I'm not racist, but....."

[kk67]

This thread is like being stuck in a taxi in traffic on the way to the airport, and the driver opens with, "I'm not racist, but....."

But it's better than watching the nightmare in Pakistan, where the military are running a farce of democracy. (Off topic, apologies).
I find this subject fascinating. It cuts to the very core of what we consider to be a civilized existence.
They aren't armed in this country and we don't allow civilians to be armed. That's got to be a benefit.

[morepork]

Why should the police get this sort of unlimited benefit of the doubt?

Because they are cunts. Rotten apples and all that.

[Son of Mathonwy]

Another damning report on the Met:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/202 ... nds-review

https://www.met.police.uk/police-forces ... isconduct/

The case studies (starting at p10) are unbelievable.

[Which Tyler]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/202 ... ial-rapist

Elite Metropolitan police officer David Carrick revealed as serial rapist

Carrick, 48, carried out more than 40 attacks over 17 years, despite force being told repeatedly of allegations

A Metropolitan police officer has been revealed as a serial rapist who committed more than 40 attacks, despite the force being told of repeated allegations over two decades that he was a threat to women.

PC David Carrick, an armed officer in the parliamentary and diplomatic protection command, admitted on Monday to more than 43 counts – some detailing multiple offences, against 12 women.

Police and prosecutors say he exploited his position as a Met officer to lure women, then terrorise them into staying silent about his sexual attacks and degradation of them.

...

ARTICLE CONTINUES

[Stom]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/202 ... ial-rapist

Elite Metropolitan police officer David Carrick revealed as serial rapist

Carrick, 48, carried out more than 40 attacks over 17 years, despite force being told repeatedly of allegations

A Metropolitan police officer has been revealed as a serial rapist who committed more than 40 attacks, despite the force being told of repeated allegations over two decades that he was a threat to women.

PC David Carrick, an armed officer in the parliamentary and diplomatic protection command, admitted on Monday to more than 43 counts – some detailing multiple offences, against 12 women.

Police and prosecutors say he exploited his position as a Met officer to lure women, then terrorise them into staying silent about his sexual attacks and degradation of them.

...

ARTICLE CONTINUES

It's things like this that make the calls to defund the police seem like very good options... Honestly, all senior management needs to go. It needs a complete overhaul.

[Sandydragon]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/202 ... ial-rapist

Elite Metropolitan police officer David Carrick revealed as serial rapist

Carrick, 48, carried out more than 40 attacks over 17 years, despite force being told repeatedly of allegations

A Metropolitan police officer has been revealed as a serial rapist who committed more than 40 attacks, despite the force being told of repeated allegations over two decades that he was a threat to women.

PC David Carrick, an armed officer in the parliamentary and diplomatic protection command, admitted on Monday to more than 43 counts – some detailing multiple offences, against 12 women.

Police and prosecutors say he exploited his position as a Met officer to lure women, then terrorise them into staying silent about his sexual attacks and degradation of them.

...

ARTICLE CONTINUES

It's things like this that make the calls to defund the police seem like very good options... Honestly, all senior management needs to go. It needs a complete overhaul.

The new commissioner has only just arrived, needs time to drive out bad apples. But the underlying problem here is the Met is too big and needs to be split up.

[morepork]

Bad apples?

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-65015479

[Sandydragon]

Bad apples?

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-65015479

Yes. Plenty of good officers who care a lot about doing a good job. The number of complaints reflect a low percentage of actual officers, but they are the ones that get attention.

Where Casey is spot on though is that the Met is too big to be effectively governed. Because of its size it’s god a very arrogant attitude that the rest of policing hates. At the very least removing national responsibilities would be a start is making it manageable.

[Puja]

Bad apples?

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-65015479

Yes. Plenty of good officers who care a lot about doing a good job. The number of complaints reflect a low percentage of actual officers, but they are the ones that get attention.

Where Casey is spot on though is that the Met is too big to be effectively governed. Because of its size it’s god a very arrogant attitude that the rest of policing hates. At the very least removing national responsibilities would be a start is making it manageable.

Even if we're assuming the number of complaints accurately reflects the number of incidents (I would be surprised if they were even a quarter of the major incidents, let alone the minor prejudices), the fact still remains that every single officer has either engaged in shitty behaviour, enabled shitty behaviour, or kept quiet about shitty behaviour because they've decided it's not worth causing a fuss over. It's self-selecting, because the ones who do make a fuss get bullied out of the force for "betraying their colleagues", so the only ones left are either the bastards or the ones willing to look the other way.

Puja

[Sandydragon]

Bad apples?

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-65015479

Yes. Plenty of good officers who care a lot about doing a good job. The number of complaints reflect a low percentage of actual officers, but they are the ones that get attention.

Where Casey is spot on though is that the Met is too big to be effectively governed. Because of its size it’s god a very arrogant attitude that the rest of policing hates. At the very least removing national responsibilities would be a start is making it manageable.

Even if we're assuming the number of complaints accurately reflects the number of incidents (I would be surprised if they were even a quarter of the major incidents, let alone the minor prejudices), the fact still remains that every single officer has either engaged in shitty behaviour, enabled shitty behaviour, or kept quiet about shitty behaviour because they've decided it's not worth causing a fuss over. It's self-selecting, because the ones who do make a fuss get bullied out of the force for "betraying their colleagues", so the only ones left are either the bastards or the ones willing to look the other way.

Puja

That cuts both ways as whilst many legitimate complaints might not be made, equally some of the complaints made will be spurious. Some people don't like their interactions with the police for reasons that are not the fault of the officers concerned.

The police does try too hard to look after their own because they know that many complaints will be motivated by something other than the truth. Also some officers have been a long way out of line and deserve disciplinary action; and its also clear that many chief officers are unhappy at the way disciplinary panels often give a lot of leniency. The Chief Constable of BTP recently managed to overturn a decision and got an officer sacked who was clearly abusing his position.

Its also true that the Met is too big and needs to be split up, or at least lose its national responsibilities. That would help the efficiency issues considerably.

There are also issues with vetting. Wayne Couzens wasn't always a Met Police officer, he started with Kent as a special then joined the Civil Nuclear Constabulary. It was here that one of the key allegations against him was made, but was that information passed to the Met when he applied to join them? That's not (to the best of my knowledge clear). The complaints against him whilst serving with the Met were made just before the murder of Sarah Everard. Did the Met have all the necessary information when they hired him or when they responded to the complaints in February 2021?

[morepork]

Bad apples?

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-65015479

Yes. Plenty of good officers who care a lot about doing a good job. The number of complaints reflect a low percentage of actual officers, but they are the ones that get attention.

Where Casey is spot on though is that the Met is too big to be effectively governed. Because of its size it’s god a very arrogant attitude that the rest of policing hates. At the very least removing national responsibilities would be a start is making it manageable.

Don't fight it man. Micromanagement of individuals is just deflecting the failure of the whole organisation to serve the public good.

[Sandydragon]

Bad apples?

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-65015479

Yes. Plenty of good officers who care a lot about doing a good job. The number of complaints reflect a low percentage of actual officers, but they are the ones that get attention.

Where Casey is spot on though is that the Met is too big to be effectively governed. Because of its size it’s god a very arrogant attitude that the rest of policing hates. At the very least removing national responsibilities would be a start is making it manageable.

Don't fight it man. Micromanagement of individuals is just deflecting the failure of the whole organisation to serve the public good.

That is rubbish though. There are many reasons why the police can't provide the level of support they or the public would wish to; racism, sexism etc would be a very small part of that reason. Austerity may have a lot more to do with this than any cultural issue.

[morepork]

Can't agree, sorry. Give them more money to hire more sociopaths and bolster lobbyists for qualified immunity? No thanks.