Team for Italy

[Puja]

I'd have broadly the same as this week - I don't see a value in chopping and changing given so many of our issues looked to be down to inadequate familiarity with each other and systems. Plus Italy are not to be underestimated nowadays. The three changes I would make are Willis for Dombrandt (with Ludlam going to 8), Blamire for Walker (if we don't trust Walker at all, why is he there), and Ribbans for Isiekwe (the best lock please).

I mean, I'd drop Faz as well, but let's stick with things that have an outside chance of happening.

Puja

[Timbo]

I would want better athletes at 2, 8, 12 & 21. The rest showed promise and should be kept with to build some cohesion and understanding.

[fivepointer]

The temptation is to roll the dice but really you are looking at 4/5 changes at most across the 23.

Think Dombrandt must be under pressure. He did some good things but also made some really dull errors. Youngs has got to go, hasnt he ? And yes Ribbans is a far superior lock to Isiekwe. if Lawes is fit he might come in. Having a guy sit on the bench when the starting player isnt exactly pulling up trees i find utterly bizarre. Walker should have got a run.

Farrell wouldnt be in my 23 but SB has committed himself to him as captain so he aint gonna get shifted.

[Mellsblue]

I would want better athletes at 2, 8, 12 & 21. The rest showed promise and should be kept with to build some cohesion and understanding.

Who are these athletes?

[Mellsblue]

I’d stick with them all. Brand new regime with two weeks buildup… it was never going to be perfect but it was a good evolution, imo.

[Timbo]

I would want better athletes at 2, 8, 12 & 21. The rest showed promise and should be kept with to build some cohesion and understanding.

Who are these athletes?

Willis, Lawrence & Mitchell at 8,12,21, just as an example. Loads of other options with the backrow if you don’t fancy the Ludlum, Willis, Curry combo, though.

Manu at 12 or Slade/Kelly if fit, too.

Hooker more tricky with LCD & Mcguigan injured. I would be keen to see Blamire fast tracked, but maybe from the bench. I’ve not really got a big issue with George, he’s still a class player, but I wish he offered more at the defensive breakdown. Most top modern test hookers are like extra 7’s at the breakdown & George just isn’t. But we have a very athletic tight 5, so I can let it slide.

[Stom]

I’d stick with them all. Brand new regime with two weeks buildup… it was never going to be perfect but it was a good evolution, imo.

I...

Just drop Farrell.

I don't care about the rest. He was appalling today. Get rid now.

[Mellsblue]

I would want better athletes at 2, 8, 12 & 21. The rest showed promise and should be kept with to build some cohesion and understanding.

Who are these athletes?

Willis, Lawrence & Mitchell at 8,12,21, just as an example. Loads of other option with the backrow if you don’t fancy the Ludlum, Willis, Curry combo, though. Manu at 12 or Slade/Kelly if fit, too.

Hooker more tricky with LCD & Mcguigan injured. I would be keen to see Blamire fast tracked, but maybe from the bench. I’ve not really got a big issue with George, he’s still a class player, but I wish he offered more at the defensive breakdown. Most top modern test hookers are like extra 7’s at the breakdown & George just isn’t. But we have a very athletic tight 5, so I can let it slide.

Would be happy to see Blamire on the bench. George is on the down slope but he’s still a class hooker. He might not be an auxiliary 7, not that he’s ever been, but he has many other qualities.
Willis isn’t a no8 and I think Dombrandt is an athlete in rugby terms.
Manu isn’t really an athlete these days and, as you say, Kelly and Slade aren’t fit so that’s moot. Not that I’m defending Farrell... Would happily see Lawrence at 12.
Mitchell hasn’t been playing well enough to warrant selection, imo, and I’d be hoping for Quirke to be playing well come Wales. If not, and as much as it pains me to say it, I’d stick with Youngs as a place holder.

[Mellsblue]

I’d stick with them all. Brand new regime with two weeks buildup… it was never going to be perfect but it was a good evolution, imo.

I...

Just drop Farrell.

I don't care about the rest. He was appalling today. Get rid now.

And replace with who? Lawrence is the obvious replacement but he’s not a proven international and it’s a change of set-up two weeks after a new install.
It’s about evolution not revolution, for me. Smith showed flashes and I just want him to settle after Jones’s feck up.

[Stom]

I’d stick with them all. Brand new regime with two weeks buildup… it was never going to be perfect but it was a good evolution, imo.

I...

Just drop Farrell.

I don't care about the rest. He was appalling today. Get rid now.

And replace with who? Lawrence is the obvious replacement but he’s not a proven international and it’s a change of set-up two weeks after a new install.
It’s about evolution not revolution, for me. Smith showed flashes and I just want him to settle after Jones’s feck up.

I'll go all Geoffrey Boycott...me nan could do better with a stick of rhubarb.

Seriously, just get rid. I don't care, his mistakes in defence are too damaging.

[Timbo]

I’d stick with them all. Brand new regime with two weeks buildup… it was never going to be perfect but it was a good evolution, imo.

I...

Just drop Farrell.

I don't care about the rest. He was appalling today. Get rid now.

And replace with who? Lawrence is the obvious replacement but he’s not a proven international and it’s a change of set-up two weeks after a new install.
It’s about evolution not revolution, for me. Smith showed flashes and I just want him to settle after Jones’s feck up.

On reflection you are of course right. There was plenty about today that I was quite happy with. Throwing out a load of players, especially experienced leaders would be completely counter productive. I think there was enough today to see that there’s a lot of potential under the surface.

My hunch is that a number of these players won’t make the World Cup though. Seen with his squad rebuild at Tigers and now Billy & Manu that Borthwick is ruthless around selection.

[Mellsblue]

I...

Just drop Farrell.

I don't care about the rest. He was appalling today. Get rid now.

And replace with who? Lawrence is the obvious replacement but he’s not a proven international and it’s a change of set-up two weeks after a new install.
It’s about evolution not revolution, for me. Smith showed flashes and I just want him to settle after Jones’s feck up.

On reflection you are of course right. There was plenty about today that I was quite happy with. Throwing out a load of players, especially experienced leaders would be completely counter productive. I think there was enough today to see that there’s a lot of potential under the surface.

My hunch is that a number of these players won’t make the World Cup though. Seen with his squad rebuild at Tigers and now Billy & Manu that Borthwick is ruthless around selection.

It does pain me to say we should keep Farrell, I think I’ve been one of his biggest critics on here, but with the current inexperienced 8, 9 & 10, all of whom I’d keep long term, and the lack of an obvious 12 I’d stick with him… as much as it pains me. I’d be more than happy/ecstatic to bring in Kelly/Lawrence towards the end of the 6N, if we’re not in the running, or the warmups.

[p/d]

I just don’t get why we need to persist with starting 2 10’s. We know what Smith can do and brings to the field but I would bench him, move Terry Butcher to 10 and bring Lawrence into 12.

[Epaminondas Pules]

Just play one or the other. I’d go Smith and then any of Lawrence, Kelly or Manu at 12.

Mind hardly any of the backline would strike fear in many opponents.

[Banquo]

I would want better athletes at 2, 8, 12 & 21. The rest showed promise and should be kept with to build some cohesion and understanding.

Who are these athletes?

Willis, Lawrence & Mitchell at 8,12,21, just as an example. Loads of other options with the backrow if you don’t fancy the Ludlum, Willis, Curry combo, though.

Manu at 12 or Slade/Kelly if fit, too.

Hooker more tricky with LCD & Mcguigan injured. I would be keen to see Blamire fast tracked, but maybe from the bench. I’ve not really got a big issue with George, he’s still a class player, but I wish he offered more at the defensive breakdown. Most top modern test hookers are like extra 7’s at the breakdown & George just isn’t. But we have a very athletic tight 5, so I can let it slide.

which Willis?

[Banquo]

Just play one or the other. I’d go Smith and then any of Lawrence, Kelly or Manu at 12.

Mind hardly any of the backline would strike fear in many opponents.

Therein nail being hit by hammer.

[Banquo]

I...

Just drop Farrell.

I don't care about the rest. He was appalling today. Get rid now.

And replace with who? Lawrence is the obvious replacement but he’s not a proven international and it’s a change of set-up two weeks after a new install.
It’s about evolution not revolution, for me. Smith showed flashes and I just want him to settle after Jones’s feck up.

On reflection you are of course right. There was plenty about today that I was quite happy with. Throwing out a load of players, especially experienced leaders would be completely counter productive. I think there was enough today to see that there’s a lot of potential under the surface.

My hunch is that a number of these players won’t make the World Cup though. Seen with his squad rebuild at Tigers and now Billy & Manu that Borthwick is ruthless around selection.

It is fair to say that some of garish errors, naivity (esp d), discipline and poor decisions in attack may mask some handy approach play, as well as the result.

[Danno]

Youngs has to go. Has to. He's worth 5+ points to the other team. And unlike Farrell, SB can actually drop him.

[Gloskarlos]

Youngs has to go. Has to. He's worth 5+ points to the other team. And unlike Farrell, SB can actually drop him.

This. If not more. Just pony today.

I’d rather move Smith into 9 and Farrell at 10 if JVP can’t manage 80 mins frankly.

[Mikey Brown]

I’d stick with them all. Brand new regime with two weeks buildup… it was never going to be perfect but it was a good evolution, imo.

Yeah, most of the bad stuff seemed like a lack of cohesion/familiarity and things not quite sticking, but it all looked a lot more positive in approach for the most part?

[Timbo]

Who are these athletes?

Willis, Lawrence & Mitchell at 8,12,21, just as an example. Loads of other options with the backrow if you don’t fancy the Ludlum, Willis, Curry combo, though.

Manu at 12 or Slade/Kelly if fit, too.

Hooker more tricky with LCD & Mcguigan injured. I would be keen to see Blamire fast tracked, but maybe from the bench. I’ve not really got a big issue with George, he’s still a class player, but I wish he offered more at the defensive breakdown. Most top modern test hookers are like extra 7’s at the breakdown & George just isn’t. But we have a very athletic tight 5, so I can let it slide.

which Willis?

I was thinking Jack with LL sliding over to 8. Would love to see Tom involved but he really needs to be playing in England first. Simply won’t be able to get the training time flying back & forth, which is not really viable for a test rookie.

[Mikey Brown]

How is that different for Jack?

I really like Ludlam but not sure I’m particularly keen to see him at 8, though I know he’s been playing there a bit for Northampton. I thought he was great today though and really enjoyed his energy. I think he works very well in the 6 role alongside 2 specialists.

Gutted for Dombrandt with that biffed restart and the failed tackle on VDM (though I’m not sure a tackle round the legs would have brought him down without getting over the line) they were big, glaring errors. I feel like there’s been quite a lot of unfair dismissal of his other contributions and not catching that Ludlam offload to the face.

I feel like I’d rather see if he can settle there and we continue making gains off his attacking work than play a variety of flankers at 8 for the rest of the 6 nations, then just revert to Billy for the World Cup anyway.

[Danno]

I feel like I’d rather see if he can settle there and we continue making gains off his attacking work than play a variety of flankers at 8 for the rest of the 6 nations, then just revert to Billy for the World Cup anyway.

Bang on. He had tits for hands today, but that isn't his MO. And that (abstractly) applies to the side in general, so much of it is new (players or combos) that tearing the whole thing up would just be an Eddie move and (hopefully) we're done with that for a bit.

The bench was rotten though.

[Mr Mwenda]

How is that different for Jack?

I really like Ludlam but not sure I’m particularly keen to see him at 8, though I know he’s been playing there a bit for Northampton. I thought he was great today though and really enjoyed his energy. I think he works very well in the 6 role alongside 2 specialists.

Gutted for Dombrandt with that biffed restart and the failed tackle on VDM (though I’m not sure a tackle round the legs would have brought him down without getting over the line) they were big, glaring errors. I feel like there’s been quite a lot of unfair dismissal of his other contributions and not catching that Ludlam offload to the face.

I feel like I’d rather see if he can settle there and we continue making gains off his attacking work than play a variety of flankers at 8 for the rest of the 6 nations, then just revert to Billy for the World Cup anyway.

Hmmm, i think on balance you're right. Dombrandt should get a couple more cracks at it.

However, my frustration with him also span from the irritation that given his head he made costly errors. Farrell also showed up well in the positive attacks for example but then stank at some awful times.

While we're on Farrell - he makes two kickable conversions and then the penalty 3 minutes from time is game winning. Drawing if Russell is allowed to amend for a similar mistake. So effing annoying.

I'm really disappointed about Marchant too. Pretty anonymous.

I felt for Hassell-Collins, he looked surprised at times that people were tackling him and he wasn't looking for passing options. Scotland had done their homework there.

Gah...

I was wondering how we'd have all reacted to that if Jones had still been in charge. Borthwick will burn through the goodwill fast if he isn't careful.

[Banquo]

How is that different for Jack?

I really like Ludlam but not sure I’m particularly keen to see him at 8, though I know he’s been playing there a bit for Northampton. I thought he was great today though and really enjoyed his energy. I think he works very well in the 6 role alongside 2 specialists.

Gutted for Dombrandt with that biffed restart and the failed tackle on VDM (though I’m not sure a tackle round the legs would have brought him down without getting over the line) they were big, glaring errors. I feel like there’s been quite a lot of unfair dismissal of his other contributions and not catching that Ludlam offload to the face.

I feel like I’d rather see if he can settle there and we continue making gains off his attacking work than play a variety of flankers at 8 for the rest of the 6 nations, then just revert to Billy for the World Cup anyway.

He made a few garish handling errors, being turned over three times, and his tackle count was low. Not a good day at the office, in fairness not alone. Fascinating to see what SB does next- probably worth sticking with the same pack, but the midfield defence ffs....