EPS Watch / Player Form Thread

[Timbo]

“My body language in a walk-through – that was the reason given. I didn’t understand it. I was taken aback by it. I’d like to think my attitude was always there.”

Max Malins on why Eddie ditched him. That’s what got him dropped from the team, then he wasn’t picked for the summer tour…but then came back for the Autumn. Seems like it was as confused inside the camp as it appeared from the outside.

You wonder what reasons were given to players like Marchant who were also picked & discarded seemingly at random.

[Danno]

Slight tangent, but I do wish whichever 1998-2003 Ibiza acolyte goblin in charge of the entertainment at Twickenham was retired. Having worked in HMV during the same period I feel physically sick whenever we score.

[16th man]

“My body language in a walk-through – that was the reason given. I didn’t understand it. I was taken aback by it. I’d like to think my attitude was always there.”

Max Malins on why Eddie ditched him. That’s what got him dropped from the team, then he wasn’t picked for the summer tour…but then came back for the Autumn. Seems like it was as confused inside the camp as it appeared from the outside.

You wonder what reasons were given to players like Marchant who were also picked & discarded seemingly at random.

Also raises some questions about how coherent the lists of "work ons" were that were given to the many, many apprentices and training squad call ups that were never seen again.

[Which Tyler]

He's just so inconsistent as noted and shouted at before

He's also came into this 6N with what? 3 international starts under his belt, and single-figure caps including bench?
He's been inconsistent, and deserved a lot of criticism for his performance against Scotland; but also deserves some forgiveness to still being new to all this.
He's also still looked better than the current alternatives at 8.

I think Dombrandt needs to be given the 6N, by which time he'll have had 10 hours of international experience.
If he doesn't stake his claim, then Mercer comes in for the warm-ups; if he does stake his claim, then Mercer comes onto the bench for the warm-ups.

10 hours isn't a huge amount, but it should be enough to start settling down; as is the faith shown in a whole international window as starter.

[FKAS]

Dombrandt did make a couple of errors that looked like he overran moves which was disappointing as it's such a strong element of his game.

He has definitely added more to his performance this week from last. I'd like to see us persevere with him as Which says he's the best current option and we can give him the 6N. If he stakes his claim then great, if not the Tom Willis and Mercer are options to look at in the summer.

[Which Tyler]

I love Tom Willis as well, but if not available until the summer, I think we have to choose one of Zach or Tom for the RWC, with Dombrandt as the other #8. Zach is fairly comfortably ahead at this moment in time - having played 3 times as many matches this season, and absolutely ripping up trees

Of course, if AD shits the bed, then the risk : reward ratio changes.

Post RWC, then it's a different ball game, and backrow stocks of THill, TCurry, LLudlam, SUnderhill, BCurry, BEarl, ZMercer, TWillis & ABarbeary should be the envy of world rugby (that we'll probably screw up by being blinded by the choice and no-one fully settling). And that's without any bolters like CCS or Pearson establishing themselves in the mean time.

[Mellsblue]

For me, there’s a test quality player in Dombrandt but he needs to show it soonish. It looks as though he’s a combo of nerves and trying too hard. If he can settle down I think he can be quality. Given timescales I agree with WT that he needs to prove he can do it over the next three matches. I subscribe to the recent England cricket thinking of better one game too many than one game too few so I’m happy to give players a bit longer to settle, particular the flair/expansive/attacking players because of their upside, with the caveat that the World Cup is only half a year and 6 games away…

[16th man]

He's just so inconsistent as noted and shouted at before

He's also came into this 6N with what? 3 international starts under his belt, and single-figure caps including bench?
He's been inconsistent, and deserved a lot of criticism for his performance against Scotland; but also deserves some forgiveness to still being new to all this.
He's also still looked better than the current alternatives at 8.

I think Dombrandt needs to be given the 6N,

Hush now. We all know that you need to be winning games on your own from minute 1 or you're out on your ear.

It worked for mid 90s English cricket, so we should be able to make it work for the Rugby team.

[16th man]

I'd be quite happy to see Tom Curry sit this 6ns out, with us knowing what he can do, and Willis, Ludlum and Dombrandt given the remaining three games to work together as a unit. Fitness permitting.

[Mellsblue]

I'd be quite happy to see Tom Curry sit this 6ns out, with us knowing what he can do, and Willis, Ludlum and Dombrandt given the remaining three games to work together as a unit. Fitness permitting.

And knowing how much rugby his crammed into 6/7 years.

[Scrumhead]

For me, there’s a test quality player in Dombrandt but he needs to show it soonish. It looks as though he’s a combo of nerves and trying too hard. If he can settle down I think he can be quality. Given timescales I agree with WT that he needs to prove he can do it over the next three matches. I subscribe to the recent England cricket thinking of better one game too many than one game too few so I’m happy to give players a bit longer to settle, particular the flair/expansive/attacking players because of their upside, with the caveat that the World Cup is only half a year and 6 games away…

This. Along with the fact that he’s being asked to play a bit of a different role. Ironically, I thought he did better on Sunday in a more nuts and bolts role than he did against Scotland in a more familiar role where he had a bit more free reign. Having said that, I still maintain that we’d be looking at it very differently had a couple of the dropped passes against he Scots stuck.

The tangental benefit of playing Dombrandt is that it beds in a system where the 8 has less of a heavy carrying role and has a bit more license to roam. If it works well for him, great, but even if it isn’t a roaring success, I think it paves the way for Mercer to slot in. Ideally, we achieve both - Dombrandt looks better and more comfortable with it and it sets things up nicely for Mercer, which means we have two very good options.

I’m definitely not discounting Tom Willis, but I think he’s a bit more of an ‘orthodox’ style of 8 than Dombrandt or Mercer.

[Mikey Brown]

I think the main appeal of Willis is he looks capable of it all. Maybe not got the pace or the hitch-kick but he looks to be incredibly athletic and have a bit of the ‘dog’ that Jack does.

Still all guesswork at this point though.

[Oakboy]

I think the main appeal of Willis is he looks capable of it all. Maybe not got the pace or the hitch-kick but he looks to be incredibly athletic and have a bit of the ‘dog’ that Jack does.

Still all guesswork at this point though.

In terms of the RWC, where is the deadline for selection? It must be tempting for SB to stick with most of Sunday's 23 through the 6N but defeat to Scotland might have changed his original thoughts. Might a bad game v Wales see a couple of players depart?

[Mikey Brown]

I imagined this was post RWC if he hasn't already decided to look at T Willis in the 6 nations, but who knows.

[Puja]

I think the main appeal of Willis is he looks capable of it all. Maybe not got the pace or the hitch-kick but he looks to be incredibly athletic and have a bit of the ‘dog’ that Jack does.

Still all guesswork at this point though.

In terms of the RWC, where is the deadline for selection? It must be tempting for SB to stick with most of Sunday's 23 through the 6N but defeat to Scotland might have changed his original thoughts. Might a bad game v Wales see a couple of players depart?

I would say they're on an accelerated timescale and, while normally I'd say the last year is not the time to be making changes, there's no point in being dogmatic if something isn't working and anyone's place could be under threat between the 6N and the summer camps. I don't see anyone being turfed out mid-tournament though, unless it's to accomodate a returning player like Lawes or TCurry.

Puja

[Banquo]

He's just so inconsistent as noted and shouted at before

He's been inconsistent,.

So you agree? Excellent.

justice4banquo

No doubting his talent. But he is....inconsistent.

[Banquo]

He's just so inconsistent as noted and shouted at before

He's also came into this 6N with what? 3 international starts under his belt, and single-figure caps including bench?
He's been inconsistent, and deserved a lot of criticism for his performance against Scotland; but also deserves some forgiveness to still being new to all this.
He's also still looked better than the current alternatives at 8.

I think Dombrandt needs to be given the 6N,

Hush now. We all know that you need to be winning games on your own from minute 1 or you're out on your ear.

It worked for mid 90s English cricket, so we should be able to make it work for the Rugby team.

Yes, that's exactly what I said. Or, that we all agree he's inconsistent.

(and I think his conditioning needs some attention, but I don't want Scrumhead shouting at me again )

[Raggs]

I imagined this was post RWC if he hasn't already decided to look at T Willis in the 6 nations, but who knows.

Limited changes allowed to the EPS. If you're already checking out Dombrandt, do you really have time to check out T Willis as well?

[Scrumhead]

He's also came into this 6N with what? 3 international starts under his belt, and single-figure caps including bench?
He's been inconsistent, and deserved a lot of criticism for his performance against Scotland; but also deserves some forgiveness to still being new to all this.
He's also still looked better than the current alternatives at 8.

I think Dombrandt needs to be given the 6N,

Hush now. We all know that you need to be winning games on your own from minute 1 or you're out on your ear.

It worked for mid 90s English cricket, so we should be able to make it work for the Rugby team.

Yes, that's exactly what I said. Or, that we all agree he's inconsistent.

(and I think his conditioning needs some attention, but I don't want Scrumhead shouting at me again )

Eh? I’m not shouting at anyone …

I’m a fan of Dombrandt and I admit to having some Quins tinted goggles, but I agree he has been underwhelming and isn’t exactly seizing his opportunity.

[Banquo]

Hush now. We all know that you need to be winning games on your own from minute 1 or you're out on your ear.

It worked for mid 90s English cricket, so we should be able to make it work for the Rugby team.

Yes, that's exactly what I said. Or, that we all agree he's inconsistent.

(and I think his conditioning needs some attention, but I don't want Scrumhead shouting at me again )

Eh? I’m not shouting at anyone …

I’m a fan of Dombrandt and I admit to having some Quins tinted goggles, but I agree he has been underwhelming and isn’t exactly seizing his opportunity.

Just pulling your chain, but I did get a pre 6N ticking off for suggesting that I'd like to see Dombrandt bring some consistency to his game when he got his England shirt on. I think he has a ton of talent, and a bit of the unpredictable that our somewhat predictable team needs.

[Oakboy]

I imagined this was post RWC if he hasn't already decided to look at T Willis in the 6 nations, but who knows.

Limited changes allowed to the EPS. If you're already checking out Dombrandt, do you really have time to check out T Willis as well?

That's the issue. If Dombrandt passes the test, fine - judgement vindicated. But, he's arguably had one bad game and one better. What if he has a bad one v Wales? That's the dilemma. Are there viable changes that don't require testing a new guy - Billy V, Curry (both ugh, IMO)? Or, risk moving Ludlam or Earl there (neither good enough at 8, IMO)? Simmonds (OK, IMO)?

Or, try T Willis for the last two 6N games? I would.

[Raggs]

I imagined this was post RWC if he hasn't already decided to look at T Willis in the 6 nations, but who knows.

Limited changes allowed to the EPS. If you're already checking out Dombrandt, do you really have time to check out T Willis as well?

That's the issue. If Dombrandt passes the test, fine - judgement vindicated. But, he's arguably had one bad game and one better. What if he has a bad one v Wales? That's the dilemma. Are there viable changes that don't require testing a new guy - Billy V, Curry (both ugh, IMO)? Or, risk moving Ludlam or Earl there (neither good enough at 8, IMO)? Simmonds (OK, IMO)?

Or, try T Willis for the last two 6N games? I would.

Which of the swaps wouldn't you have done before the 6N, and which extra player from the backrow would you have dropped to include T Willis?

[Banquo]

Limited changes allowed to the EPS. If you're already checking out Dombrandt, do you really have time to check out T Willis as well?

That's the issue. If Dombrandt passes the test, fine - judgement vindicated. But, he's arguably had one bad game and one better. What if he has a bad one v Wales? That's the dilemma. Are there viable changes that don't require testing a new guy - Billy V, Curry (both ugh, IMO)? Or, risk moving Ludlam or Earl there (neither good enough at 8, IMO)? Simmonds (OK, IMO)?

Or, try T Willis for the last two 6N games? I would.

Which of the swaps wouldn't you have done before the 6N, and which extra player from the backrow would you have dropped to include T Willis?

I reckon the 5 change EPS checkmate is probably why Mako is still there. BTW, if Ford replaces Fin Smith, is that a freebie? Ditto Lawes on Isiekwe (say)?

[Oakboy]

Limited changes allowed to the EPS. If you're already checking out Dombrandt, do you really have time to check out T Willis as well?

That's the issue. If Dombrandt passes the test, fine - judgement vindicated. But, he's arguably had one bad game and one better. What if he has a bad one v Wales? That's the dilemma. Are there viable changes that don't require testing a new guy - Billy V, Curry (both ugh, IMO)? Or, risk moving Ludlam or Earl there (neither good enough at 8, IMO)? Simmonds (OK, IMO)?

Or, try T Willis for the last two 6N games? I would.

Which of the swaps wouldn't you have done before the 6N, and which extra player from the backrow would you have dropped to include T Willis?

Ah, I'm prejudiced. I'd have had both Willises in the first place. So far, I have seen nothing to convince me that our best back row is not Curry, J Willis and T Willis. SB has gone with Dombrandt and Ludlam with Curry unfit. Ludlam has played better than I thought he could. I don't rate Earl apart from seeing him as a better bench option than Simmonds or Dombrandt. In due course, I think Ludlam is the ideal bench back-rower but he'll take some shifting from a starting shirt.

[Raggs]

That's the issue. If Dombrandt passes the test, fine - judgement vindicated. But, he's arguably had one bad game and one better. What if he has a bad one v Wales? That's the dilemma. Are there viable changes that don't require testing a new guy - Billy V, Curry (both ugh, IMO)? Or, risk moving Ludlam or Earl there (neither good enough at 8, IMO)? Simmonds (OK, IMO)?

Or, try T Willis for the last two 6N games? I would.

Which of the swaps wouldn't you have done before the 6N, and which extra player from the backrow would you have dropped to include T Willis?

Ah, I'm prejudiced. I'd have had both Willises in the first place. So far, I have seen nothing to convince me that our best back row is not Curry, J Willis and T Willis. SB has gone with Dombrandt and Ludlam with Curry unfit. Ludlam has played better than I thought he could. I don't rate Earl apart from seeing him as a better bench option than Simmonds or Dombrandt. In due course, I think Ludlam is the ideal bench back-rower but he'll take some shifting from a starting shirt.

That's not really an answer though is it. If you can't pick out the swaps you'd reverse, in order to make one available for T Willis (who like Jack, won't be at training for several of the weeks), then it's not fair to expect it from SB. In addition, Jack was already in the squad, so would be more familiar with plays etc (I doubt Borthwick ripped everything up)