Nail meet head

[Epaminondas Pules]

Danny Cipriani:

“English rugby is digging its own grave, led by people that do not understand the art of the game. It’s steeped in tradition and heritage which is out dated and the very thing shackling the game. The game is coached at step 2/3, lowest common denominator. Never step one, game understanding/intelligence, spacial recognition, nuance. It is all how tough can I show to the world I am. Bravado. It will only ever bring a certain level of performance. Open discussions where coaches welcome new ideas that feel uncomfortable to them because it’s the only way it will grow. Don’t be Sam Allardyce when you can be Pep Guardiola. Attack space in every aspect and build confidence in players decision making not conform to a plan. Have a framework but be flexible. All aligned under the vision of someone who you want to follow or have qualities that you admire… knowledge, compassion, passion, emotional intelligence, love, honesty and humility. If you’re trained to think and not to feel you’re always going to be one step behind. “

Absolutely nailed it!

And this follow up:

“ It doesn’t mean Borthwick isn’t right for the job. He has clearly grown from a player to a coach. He over took a very wooden system left by Eddie. Which is a very tough job to get the players to unlearn what was ingrained in them”

[Oakboy]

Maybe, not concentrating on Saracens old guard would be a starting point.

[Banquo]

Danny Cipriani:

“English rugby is digging its own grave, led by people that do not understand the art of the game. It’s steeped in tradition and heritage which is out dated and the very thing shackling the game. The game is coached at step 2/3, lowest common denominator. Never step one, game understanding/intelligence, spacial recognition, nuance. It is all how tough can I show to the world I am. Bravado. It will only ever bring a certain level of performance. Open discussions where coaches welcome new ideas that feel uncomfortable to them because it’s the only way it will grow. Don’t be Sam Allardyce when you can be Pep Guardiola. Attack space in every aspect and build confidence in players decision making not conform to a plan. Have a framework but be flexible. All aligned under the vision of someone who you want to follow or have qualities that you admire… knowledge, compassion, passion, emotional intelligence, love, honesty and humility. If you’re trained to think and not to feel you’re always going to be one step behind. “

Absolutely nailed it!

And this follow up:

“ It doesn’t mean Borthwick isn’t right for the job. He has clearly grown from a player to a coach. He over took a very wooden system left by Eddie. Which is a very tough job to get the players to unlearn what was ingrained in them”

Think it’s not that straightforward tbh. Our skills are weak let alone playing heads up. Needs to be the whole package. I’m not sure who he is blaming either. PRL and RFU need to get their act together, but the RFU is now stretched too wide financially.

[Banquo]

Maybe, not concentrating on Saracens old guard would be a starting point.

Sorry, we keep trying to revisit the selection as if there is a host of hidden players of class somewhere. We just haven’t produced them consistently- the system is fckd and populated by too many shyte coaches and constrained by financial fear.

[FKAS]

Oh wow an ex player with no coaching experience comes out and advocates playing heads up rugby. I'm pretty sure that's been a constant after every game for about 15 odd years.

[monkey]

Maybe, not concentrating on Saracens old guard would be a starting point.

Sorry, we keep trying to revisit the selection as if there is a host of hidden players of class somewhere. We just haven’t produced them consistently- the system is fckd and populated by too many shyte coaches and constrained by financial fear.

Absolutely.

[Oakboy]

Maybe, not concentrating on Saracens old guard would be a starting point.

Sorry, we keep trying to revisit the selection as if there is a host of hidden players of class somewhere. We just haven’t produced them consistently- the system is fckd and populated by too many shyte coaches and constrained by financial fear.

I was thinking more of a set of closed minds. Yes, we have limited top class talent but we have to start somewhere in making players better and getting the best out of what we have (individually and collectively).

[Oakboy]

Oh wow an ex player with no coaching experience comes out and advocates playing heads up rugby. I'm pretty sure that's been a constant after every game for about 15 odd years.

Cipriani might be at one extreme but Farrell is definitely at the other. Today, if two new 21 year old FHs emerged as clones of those two our system would still select Farrell every time. That remains a problem with which other countries do not handicap themselves. We are whingeing about Farrell at 31. How did he get all those caps?

[Banquo]

Maybe, not concentrating on Saracens old guard would be a starting point.

Sorry, we keep trying to revisit the selection as if there is a host of hidden players of class somewhere. We just haven’t produced them consistently- the system is fckd and populated by too many shyte coaches and constrained by financial fear.

I was thinking more of a set of closed minds. Yes, we have limited top class talent but we have to start somewhere in making players better and getting the best out of what we have (individually and collectively).

yep, but the national coach needs to be getting better raw material to work with. As I said, the system needs a big overhaul, and coaches actually being rigorously trained and assessed, and the financial fears somehow mitigated.

[Epaminondas Pules]

Sorry, we keep trying to revisit the selection as if there is a host of hidden players of class somewhere. We just haven’t produced them consistently- the system is fckd and populated by too many shyte coaches and constrained by financial fear.

I was thinking more of a set of closed minds. Yes, we have limited top class talent but we have to start somewhere in making players better and getting the best out of what we have (individually and collectively).

yep, but the national coach needs to be getting better raw material to work with. As I said, the system needs a big overhaul, and coaches actually being rigorously trained and assessed, and the financial fears somehow mitigated.

In terms of pathway it’s had two. One was the most sensational self harming ever witnessed in the appointment of Dean Ryan and secondly to undo the absolute clusterfuck impact he had from schools upwards! That’s finally been rectified.

[monkey]

Rewatched the game this afternoon and, tho I thought it in real time, I hadn’t realised just how badly the ref screwed you at the scrums. Like ‘Italy versus the ABs’ levels of shaftedness

[FKAS]

Oh wow an ex player with no coaching experience comes out and advocates playing heads up rugby. I'm pretty sure that's been a constant after every game for about 15 odd years.

Cipriani might be at one extreme but Farrell is definitely at the other. Today, if two new 21 year old FHs emerged as clones of those two our system would still select Farrell every time. That remains a problem with which other countries do not handicap themselves. We are whingeing about Farrell at 31. How did he get all those caps?

Possibly because Cips for all his talent had the tendency to be a bit of a nightmare when he wanted to be. Farrell more limited skill wise was always the consumate pro off the pitch. One was mercurial and one was reliable. It's dull but if your job is on the line you are going to go towards the respected reliable figure.

Post world cup we've got the two Smiths plus Bailey and Charlie Atkinson. More flyhalf potential then we've had in many years. Possibly since Clegg, Ford, Farrell and Heathcote all emerged around the same time.

[Banquo]

I was thinking more of a set of closed minds. Yes, we have limited top class talent but we have to start somewhere in making players better and getting the best out of what we have (individually and collectively).

yep, but the national coach needs to be getting better raw material to work with. As I said, the system needs a big overhaul, and coaches actually being rigorously trained and assessed, and the financial fears somehow mitigated.

In terms of pathway it’s had two. One was the most sensational self harming ever witnessed in the appointment of Dean Ryan and secondly to undo the absolute clusterfuck impact he had from schools upwards! That’s finally been rectified.

yep, but its still lacking tween 19/20's and club. Academies......hit or miss?

[Puja]

I was thinking more of a set of closed minds. Yes, we have limited top class talent but we have to start somewhere in making players better and getting the best out of what we have (individually and collectively).

yep, but the national coach needs to be getting better raw material to work with. As I said, the system needs a big overhaul, and coaches actually being rigorously trained and assessed, and the financial fears somehow mitigated.

In terms of pathway it’s had two. One was the most sensational self harming ever witnessed in the appointment of Dean Ryan and secondly to undo the absolute clusterfuck impact he had from schools upwards! That’s finally been rectified.

I'm still so angry that we lost John Fletcher and Peter Walton through Ryan's "improvements". If we was a secret agent sent by the Welsh to screw our pipeline, he couldn't've done a better job.

Puja

[Epaminondas Pules]

yep, but the national coach needs to be getting better raw material to work with. As I said, the system needs a big overhaul, and coaches actually being rigorously trained and assessed, and the financial fears somehow mitigated.

In terms of pathway it’s had two. One was the most sensational self harming ever witnessed in the appointment of Dean Ryan and secondly to undo the absolute clusterfuck impact he had from schools upwards! That’s finally been rectified.

I'm still so angry that we lost John Fletcher and Peter Walton through Ryan's "improvements". If we was a secret agent sent by the Welsh to screw our pipeline, he couldn't've done a better job.

Puja

Ryan vs Fletch, Walts and Rusty was literally the epitome of what we have today. It was the most criminal act of self harm and at the same time an exact replica of what we coached under Jones and into now.

[Epaminondas Pules]

yep, but the national coach needs to be getting better raw material to work with. As I said, the system needs a big overhaul, and coaches actually being rigorously trained and assessed, and the financial fears somehow mitigated.

In terms of pathway it’s had two. One was the most sensational self harming ever witnessed in the appointment of Dean Ryan and secondly to undo the absolute clusterfuck impact he had from schools upwards! That’s finally been rectified.

yep, but its still lacking tween 19/20's and club. Academies......hit or miss?

Depends! Which is a beautiful cop out word. I think the academies up to school leaving are back on track and arguably ahead of where they were prior. That’s generic. There is still lots to fix in the system, but it is in good health largely.

Senior academies now, and with that prem clubs are not quite as good. Again generically. Some better than others. The pathway from school into adult rugby is not where it should be, but is moving in the right direction which will likely take 5 or so years to sort. It is somewhat club by club in that regard. A big problem is the skills drain for schools into adult. Schools and age grade is far more expansive and enjoyment / intelligence based, whilst adult is all about result largely. There needs to be a shift at Prem to feed into the pathway. We’ll get there, like the NZ teams did a decade ago, but it will take time.

So in short….sort of, yes and no

[Oakboy]

So, are the 20 year olds not good enough to make it, are they just not being given a chance or are clubs not incentivised to afford them?

Somewhere in the mix of salary caps, clubs going under and relegation arguments our club scene is not administered in the best way for the game as a whole.

I still cannot get my head around premier matches coinciding with internationals. The simple requirement for foreign journeymen to cover international absences is plain daft. Those players are then available at other times to be selected ahead of young EQPs. Those young aspirants see no career structure as a result (and it was happening before three clubs disappeared). Changing the fixture set-up seems such an easy place to start.

[Banquo]

Somewhere in the mix of salary caps, clubs going under and relegation arguments our club scene is not administered.

Fixed that for you.

[Eugene Wrayburn]

Danny Cipriani:

“English rugby is digging its own grave, led by people that do not understand the art of the game. It’s steeped in tradition and heritage which is out dated and the very thing shackling the game. The game is coached at step 2/3, lowest common denominator. Never step one, game understanding/intelligence, spacial recognition, nuance. It is all how tough can I show to the world I am. Bravado. It will only ever bring a certain level of performance. Open discussions where coaches welcome new ideas that feel uncomfortable to them because it’s the only way it will grow. Don’t be Sam Allardyce when you can be Pep Guardiola. Attack space in every aspect and build confidence in players decision making not conform to a plan. Have a framework but be flexible. All aligned under the vision of someone who you want to follow or have qualities that you admire… knowledge, compassion, passion, emotional intelligence, love, honesty and humility. If you’re trained to think and not to feel you’re always going to be one step behind. “

Absolutely nailed it!

And this follow up:

“ It doesn’t mean Borthwick isn’t right for the job. He has clearly grown from a player to a coach. He over took a very wooden system left by Eddie. Which is a very tough job to get the players to unlearn what was ingrained in them”

Think it’s not that straightforward tbh. Our skills are weak let alone playing heads up. Needs to be the whole package. I’m not sure who he is blaming either. PRL and RFU need to get their act together, but the RFU is now stretched too wide financially.

I think it is that straightforward, pretty much. The people on here are different but elsewhere the praise in the press and fans is for how hard people can hit rather than skill or intelligence. Any player with a bit of flair is viewed with suspicion even though as we've all commented Farrell is less than consistent. And if the rewards are for being an athlete rather than a great rugby mind or having great skills then that's what you're going to produce.

I think there is a wider English problem in sport and management (I mean in jobs generally not sport management) with the veneration of orthodoxy and measurement. I think it's by no means unique to the rugby team.

[p/d]

Agree. However I want the forwards to hit hard, run straight and dominate their opposite number. I have no problem if our tight 5 can’t throw miss passes etc. Let them do their job and select backs that can pick the lines and exploit the spaces created by the forwards. No problem with a pragmatic 10 to pull the strings on when to move it

Ignoring skills has led us to being this close to Guy Porter making the 33

[Oakboy]

I think one of the problems is that poor coaches feel threatened by mavericks/flair merchants. Any player who has a tendency to go off-script is seen as a negative to the team message. The extra skill level should be encouraged by a good coach and controlled rather than shunned.

The irony currently is that the team is mistake and penalty-ridden despite playing a conservative pattern. We are conceding points for NOT trying things.

[Eugene Wrayburn]

I think one of the problems is that poor coaches feel threatened by mavericks/flair merchants. Any player who has a tendency to go off-script is seen as a negative to the team message. The extra skill level should be encouraged by a good coach and controlled rather than shunned.

The irony currently is that the team is mistake and penalty-ridden despite playing a conservative pattern. We are conceding points for NOT trying things.

It's difficult if a player goes off on a frolic completely of their own. The rest of the team need to be able to predict what they're doing. But a game plan has to contain some unpredictable elements or other teams learn to play you.

[Eugene Wrayburn]

Agree. However I want the forwards to hit hard, run straight and dominate their opposite number. I have no problem if our tight 5 can’t throw miss passes etc. Let them do their job and select backs that can pick the lines and exploit the spaces created by the forwards. No problem with a pragmatic 10 to pull the strings on when to move it

Ignoring skills has led us to being this close to Guy Porter making the 33

In theory that's grand. In practice it's going to be pretty hard to break down defences if everyone can't pass well. There's also no reason why you have to choose between them.

[canta_brian]

I remember hearing a story from an ex all black who joined an English club when he retired from international duties. At his first training session he was somewhat surprised to find there were no balls. Everyone went and trained in the gym and there were no ball skill drills done at all.

Don’t know how true that story is, but club training in NZ often included a game of touch at some point of the session.

[Banquo]

Danny Cipriani:

“English rugby is digging its own grave, led by people that do not understand the art of the game. It’s steeped in tradition and heritage which is out dated and the very thing shackling the game. The game is coached at step 2/3, lowest common denominator. Never step one, game understanding/intelligence, spacial recognition, nuance. It is all how tough can I show to the world I am. Bravado. It will only ever bring a certain level of performance. Open discussions where coaches welcome new ideas that feel uncomfortable to them because it’s the only way it will grow. Don’t be Sam Allardyce when you can be Pep Guardiola. Attack space in every aspect and build confidence in players decision making not conform to a plan. Have a framework but be flexible. All aligned under the vision of someone who you want to follow or have qualities that you admire… knowledge, compassion, passion, emotional intelligence, love, honesty and humility. If you’re trained to think and not to feel you’re always going to be one step behind. “

Absolutely nailed it!

And this follow up:

“ It doesn’t mean Borthwick isn’t right for the job. He has clearly grown from a player to a coach. He over took a very wooden system left by Eddie. Which is a very tough job to get the players to unlearn what was ingrained in them”

Think it’s not that straightforward tbh. Our skills are weak let alone playing heads up. Needs to be the whole package. I’m not sure who he is blaming either. PRL and RFU need to get their act together, but the RFU is now stretched too wide financially.

I think it is that straightforward, pretty much. The people on here are different but elsewhere the praise in the press and fans is for how hard people can hit rather than skill or intelligence. Any player with a bit of flair is viewed with suspicion even though as we've all commented Farrell is less than consistent. And if the rewards are for being an athlete rather than a great rugby mind or having great skills then that's what you're going to produce.

I think there is a wider English problem in sport and management (I mean in jobs generally not sport management) with the veneration of orthodoxy and measurement. I think it's by no means unique to the rugby team.

They could switch to playing heads up rugby as per Ashton's attempt in 2007 prior to the coup....and yes I'd love to see it, but you do need to have a whole set of basics in place frankly (which you seem to be agreeing to in later replies), and be doing it week in week out. The rest of what you have written is stereotyping, but stereotypes exist for a reason