Puja wrote: ↑Mon Sep 04, 2023 9:55 pm
Speaking of not a great communicator, has anyone read any of the excerpts of Danny Cipriani's autobiography in the papers recently? I don't know whether he's just chosen poorly in the bits to give to the papers and the rest is fine, but he really does come off as a grade-A bell-end with a chip on his shoulder the size of Manchester. Every bit I've seen so far has been him complaining about someone and how rubbish they were - doesn't appear to have a good word to say for anyone, with the exception of Sam Burgess, of wife-beating and running-away-and-stitching-up-Bath-and-Mike-Ford-because-it-got-hard fame.
Puja
I haven’t read any of the recent stuff, but saw him interviewed on the offload podcast last year and thought he seemed very measured and thoughtful in the way he talked about the game.
I have no idea how accurate that is in general, but incendiary sound bites don’t often seem to tell much of a story.
Anything particularly relevant or interesting in there beyond saying Eddie was a twat?
Eddie was a twat, both Farrells were twats, Burt was a twat, GFord was a twat, Burgess was the only one in 2015 who was okay, I respected Johnson but he was never going to pick me (which is revisionist history, as he picked Cipriani solidly in his first international window and he played like a drain (after his big injury)), I was literally the best [rugby] decision-maker on the planet at one point. They may all be a lot better in context, mind, but it's not a great selection of quotes.
Banquo wrote: ↑Mon Sep 04, 2023 5:34 pm
Spot on, well said. You also can't expect spectacular interventions when he is being flogged to death- if you know you are on for 80, then there's an element of pacing yourself as well.
So, why does he accept being used badly?
What would you suggest he does?
Tell SB who he wants as his 2nd row partner then take over the forwards' training, the breakdown work in particular.
Mellsblue wrote: ↑Mon Sep 04, 2023 8:04 pm
What would you suggest he does?
Tell SB who he wants as his 2nd row partner then take over the forwards' training, the breakdown work in particular.
So we're saying that not only is he having to do 3 or 4 jobs on the pitch, we also want him taking on selection and forwards coach roles too?
I was being tongue-in-cheek/sarcastic. Would a bit of player power be so unhelpful in our present crisis, though? Itoje is our best player being mis-handled. I can't know what happens in training but I don't like how it affects what he does on the pitch. Something needs to change - quickly.
Tell SB who he wants as his 2nd row partner then take over the forwards' training, the breakdown work in particular.
So we're saying that not only is he having to do 3 or 4 jobs on the pitch, we also want him taking on selection and forwards coach roles too?
I was being tongue-in-cheek/sarcastic. Would a bit of player power be so unhelpful in our present crisis, though? Itoje is our best player being mis-handled. I can't know what happens in training but I don't like how it affects what he does on the pitch. Something needs to change - quickly.
I could be wrong but not sure it's his second row partner as much as others in the pack. Outside of Genge our other front row players seem slow to the breakdown, add in Billy you've got another plodder whose not exactly known for the hidden work. I don't know if Itoje is doing the extra work because he's been told to or if he feels he needs to but its definitly a gap at the moment and as you say one of our biggest failures. Maybe bring in Curry &ludlum would lift some of the workload
A pack that gets through all the grunt work allowing Itoje to run around stealing ball and harassing scrum-halves would be great, but expecting him to make that happen while freeing himself up doesn't seem realistic.
Who really knows where he is at after his health concerns, he certainly hasn't seemed as lively in the last couple of seasons, but removing him from hitting rucks and doing the basics while the team as a whole is struggling might not fix much.
So we're saying that not only is he having to do 3 or 4 jobs on the pitch, we also want him taking on selection and forwards coach roles too?
I was being tongue-in-cheek/sarcastic. Would a bit of player power be so unhelpful in our present crisis, though? Itoje is our best player being mis-handled. I can't know what happens in training but I don't like how it affects what he does on the pitch. Something needs to change - quickly.
I could be wrong but not sure it's his second row partner as much as others in the pack. Outside of Genge our other front row players seem slow to the breakdown, add in Billy you've got another plodder whose not exactly known for the hidden work. I don't know if Itoje is doing the extra work because he's been told to or if he feels he needs to but its definitly a gap at the moment and as you say one of our biggest failures. Maybe bring in Curry &ludlum would lift some of the workload
I do keep coming back to having Lawes at 6. I've never liked it, we always seem to get horsed at the breakdown whenever we try it, I grudgingly accepted it when he was in that belting run of form the other year, but overall it's a crime for us to pick a carthorse lock/flank at 6 when we are overflowing with good flank options.
I do keep coming back to having Lawes at 6. I've never liked it, we always seem to get horsed at the breakdown whenever we try it, I grudgingly accepted it when he was in that belting run of form the other year, but overall it's a crime for us to pick a carthorse lock/flank at 6 when we are overflowing with good flank options.
Puja
Couldn't agree more. Itoje & Lawes with Curry & Underhill ...ooops..... Willis, and Ludlam wearing 8.
I was being tongue-in-cheek/sarcastic. Would a bit of player power be so unhelpful in our present crisis, though? Itoje is our best player being mis-handled. I can't know what happens in training but I don't like how it affects what he does on the pitch. Something needs to change - quickly.
I could be wrong but not sure it's his second row partner as much as others in the pack. Outside of Genge our other front row players seem slow to the breakdown, add in Billy you've got another plodder whose not exactly known for the hidden work. I don't know if Itoje is doing the extra work because he's been told to or if he feels he needs to but its definitly a gap at the moment and as you say one of our biggest failures. Maybe bring in Curry &ludlum would lift some of the workload
I do keep coming back to having Lawes at 6. I've never liked it, we always seem to get horsed at the breakdown whenever we try it, I grudgingly accepted it when he was in that belting run of form the other year, but overall it's a crime for us to pick a carthorse lock/flank at 6 when we are overflowing with good flank options.
Puja
We are back to the original squad selection with SB picking an unfit Curry but omitting T Willis despite his sparkling form in France. IF Curry is ever full fit in this RWC, his presence would help obviously. However, would SB pick him at 6 or would he just join the queue for the 7 shirt? Even worse, might he start at 8?
It seems to me that SB and his coaching crew are sticking rigidly to pre-tournament plans. That means Farrell at 10, Tuilagi at 12 and a back row of Lawes, Curry and BV. Now, we are faced with improvisation for the crucial Argentina game followed by a return to 'normal'. The players must be frustrated with the lack of inspiration, never mind the fans.
I could be wrong but not sure it's his second row partner as much as others in the pack. Outside of Genge our other front row players seem slow to the breakdown, add in Billy you've got another plodder whose not exactly known for the hidden work. I don't know if Itoje is doing the extra work because he's been told to or if he feels he needs to but its definitly a gap at the moment and as you say one of our biggest failures. Maybe bring in Curry &ludlum would lift some of the workload
I do keep coming back to having Lawes at 6. I've never liked it, we always seem to get horsed at the breakdown whenever we try it, I grudgingly accepted it when he was in that belting run of form the other year, but overall it's a crime for us to pick a carthorse lock/flank at 6 when we are overflowing with good flank options.
Puja
We are back to the original squad selection with SB picking an unfit Curry but omitting T Willis despite his sparkling form in France. IF Curry is ever full fit in this RWC, his presence would help obviously. However, would SB pick him at 6 or would he just join the queue for the 7 shirt? Even worse, might he start at 8?
It seems to me that SB and his coaching crew are sticking rigidly to pre-tournament plans. That means Farrell at 10, Tuilagi at 12 and a back row of Lawes, Curry and BV. Now, we are faced with improvisation for the crucial Argentina game followed by a return to 'normal'. The players must be frustrated with the lack of inspiration, never mind the fans.
Curry is our best flanker, by a distance. JWillis has been completely uninspiring and Earl only shown brief flashes. Disappointingly Lawes has been better than both.
If I was Smelly Ballbag I'd be praying Curry was fit enough in the near future as well.
The BillyV selection really was a downer though, I was hoping his suspension would be enough for TWillis to get a recall.
I do keep coming back to having Lawes at 6. I've never liked it, we always seem to get horsed at the breakdown whenever we try it, I grudgingly accepted it when he was in that belting run of form the other year, but overall it's a crime for us to pick a carthorse lock/flank at 6 when we are overflowing with good flank options.
Puja
We are back to the original squad selection with SB picking an unfit Curry but omitting T Willis despite his sparkling form in France. IF Curry is ever full fit in this RWC, his presence would help obviously. However, would SB pick him at 6 or would he just join the queue for the 7 shirt? Even worse, might he start at 8?
It seems to me that SB and his coaching crew are sticking rigidly to pre-tournament plans. That means Farrell at 10, Tuilagi at 12 and a back row of Lawes, Curry and BV. Now, we are faced with improvisation for the crucial Argentina game followed by a return to 'normal'. The players must be frustrated with the lack of inspiration, never mind the fans.
Curry is our best flanker, by a distance. JWillis has been completely uninspiring and Earl only shown brief flashes. Disappointingly Lawes has been better than both.
If I was Smelly Ballbag I'd be praying Curry was fit enough in the near future as well.
The BillyV selection really was a downer though, I was hoping his suspension would be enough for TWillis to get a recall.
JWillis hasn't really played that much (13 games, average 34 mins per game played) and is playing in a sh&t pack which pretty much nullifies his USP's. Pretty much everyone has been uninspiring in the last 'n' months. We have to be really careful assessing players in such a chronic environment.
Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Tue Sep 05, 2023 10:58 am
Is Lawes deserving of a second row spot?
He hasn't played second row out of choice in about 3 years, having shed a stone or so at Eddie's behest to play 6.
I know. All the reasons Lawes shouldn't be (or is unlikely to be) at lock again are mentioned every 5 minutes on here, that's sort of what I was getting at.
I can't say I'd noticed him being better than Willis or Earl recently either. Again I'm of the opinion that if 99% of them are playing badly it's not really about form or individual performance anymore.
Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Tue Sep 05, 2023 10:58 am
Is Lawes deserving of a second row spot?
He hasn't played second row out of choice in about 3 years, having shed a stone or so at Eddie's behest to play 6.
I know. All the reasons Lawes shouldn't be (or is unlikely to be) at lock again are mentioned every 5 minutes on here, that's sort of what I was getting at.
I can't say I'd noticed him being better than Willis or Earl recently either. Again I'm of the opinion that if 99% of them are playing badly it's not really about form or individual performance anymore.
Just reinforcing it tbh
(Then again, if we wanted to change our game plan and move the ball quickly and use width in attack, he might be worth a thought there. We could field a pretty mobile pack if we wanted to. We'd probably get stuffed tho)
Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Tue Sep 05, 2023 10:58 am
Is Lawes deserving of a second row spot?
He hasn't played second row out of choice in about 3 years, having shed a stone or so at Eddie's behest to play 6.
Exactly. Playing Lawes in the 2nd row would simply be another player out of position. Amongst all the stuff that is wrong, I'd suggest that Chessum's selection is right (from the selected 33 anyway). I'd go further and say that problems with the pack don't include the 2nd row selection. It's performance might be an issue, largely because of weaknesses in front and back row. In the case of the front row, better players don't exist. In the case of the back row, though . . . .
He hasn't played second row out of choice in about 3 years, having shed a stone or so at Eddie's behest to play 6.
I know. All the reasons Lawes shouldn't be (or is unlikely to be) at lock again are mentioned every 5 minutes on here, that's sort of what I was getting at.
I can't say I'd noticed him being better than Willis or Earl recently either. Again I'm of the opinion that if 99% of them are playing badly it's not really about form or individual performance anymore.
Just reinforcing it tbh
(Then again, if we wanted to change our game plan and move the ball quickly and use width in attack, he might be worth a thought there. We could field a pretty mobile pack if we wanted to. We'd probably get stuffed tho)
What else do you change though? Lawes to lock and Ludlam to 6 (to get more of your beloved Saints in the team) might up the mobility a bit, but then what? Fling Rodd in at 1? We'll probably still pick the slowest back line in history, either way.
He hasn't played second row out of choice in about 3 years, having shed a stone or so at Eddie's behest to play 6.
I know. All the reasons Lawes shouldn't be (or is unlikely to be) at lock again are mentioned every 5 minutes on here, that's sort of what I was getting at.
I can't say I'd noticed him being better than Willis or Earl recently either. Again I'm of the opinion that if 99% of them are playing badly it's not really about form or individual performance anymore.
Just reinforcing it tbh
(Then again, if we wanted to change our game plan and move the ball quickly and use width in attack, he might be worth a thought there. We could field a pretty mobile pack if we wanted to. We'd probably get stuffed tho)
I think I'd rather get stuffed playing expansive than get stuffed playing Stupendously Boringball.
Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Tue Sep 05, 2023 10:58 am
Is Lawes deserving of a second row spot?
He hasn't played second row out of choice in about 3 years, having shed a stone or so at Eddie's behest to play 6.
Exactly. Playing Lawes in the 2nd row would simply be another player out of position. Amongst all the stuff that is wrong, I'd suggest that Chessum's selection is right (from the selected 33 anyway). I'd go further and say that problems with the pack don't include the 2nd row selection. It's performance might be an issue, largely because of weaknesses in front and back row. In the case of the front row, better players don't exist. In the case of the back row, though . . . .
Why does a seasoned player who played at lock in the last World Cup suddenly become a player playing out of position. I like Chessa and think the fifth Beatle will be a cracker, but I would pair the two experienced players in the engine room, and pray Curry is fit to line up with Lud/Willis.
Really not sure what we would be losing, apart from a line out option ............... oh yeah, I forgot all about our expansive game plan.
