RWC Training Squad

[Mikey Brown]

Well I don’t know about you guys but I’m confident again.

Sinfield added: "It really helps having Tom Curry back available. Some of the suspensions that we've had over the last couple of weeks haven't helped. The back row changes we've had to make probably haven't helped too.

"I do see a team here that are improving and getting better. I also understand and I'm very realistic that we've not been good enough so far.

"We are working incredibly hard to be better this week and I have complete confidence and belief in the group over where we're going.

"I've seen a very slight change in how we've gone about our business this week. We needed to have that change and make that adjustment.

"I have to say I've really enjoyed my time with the guys. I've not been happy with the results and I've not been happy with the tries we've conceded, but I understand where we are going.

[Oakboy]

Well I don’t know about you guys but I’m confident again.

Sinfield added: "It really helps having Tom Curry back available. Some of the suspensions that we've had over the last couple of weeks haven't helped. The back row changes we've had to make probably haven't helped too.

"I do see a team here that are improving and getting better. I also understand and I'm very realistic that we've not been good enough so far.

"We are working incredibly hard to be better this week and I have complete confidence and belief in the group over where we're going.

"I've seen a very slight change in how we've gone about our business this week. We needed to have that change and make that adjustment.

"I have to say I've really enjoyed my time with the guys. I've not been happy with the results and I've not been happy with the tries we've conceded, but I understand where we are going.

MB, I remember thinking during the build-up to the Fiji game, "We could lose this and then where will we be?" So, confident, I ain't!

[Oakboy]

Per BBC website:

"Flanker Tom Curry is poised to start for England in their World Cup opener against Argentina on Saturday after returning from an ankle injury.

Curry, 25, has not played since Sale's Premiership final defeat on 27 May and missed all four of England's pre-World Cup warm-up matches last month.

England defence coach Kevin Sinfield said he was "delighted" Curry would be available to play in Marseille.

"It's great to see Tom out there training," Sinfield said on Tuesday."

[morepork]

There is always hope. But get ready for lots and lots of turnovers and counter attacks...

[16th man]

I'd normally be wary of a player coming straight back in as soon as they didn't need the moon boot and crutches to make it to their spot in the changing room.

However.

In this case it's probably a good thing the Curry had his engagement with the omnishambles which was the warm up campaign limited, and he can hopefully come in with some fresh eyes and start to do some of the stuff that was so conspicuously missing.

Assuming he isn't shoved into the 8 shirt of course.

[Oakboy]

I'd normally be wary of a player coming straight back in as soon as they didn't need the moon boot and crutches to make it to their spot in the changing room.

However.

In this case it's probably a good thing the Curry had his engagement with the omnishambles which was the warm up campaign limited, and he can hopefully come in with some fresh eyes and start to do some of the stuff that was so conspicuously missing.

Assuming he isn't shoved into the 8 shirt of course.

Don't ficking tempt them!

[Mikey Brown]

I'd normally be wary of a player coming straight back in as soon as they didn't need the moon boot and crutches to make it to their spot in the changing room.

However.

In this case it's probably a good thing the Curry had his engagement with the omnishambles which was the warm up campaign limited, and he can hopefully come in with some fresh eyes and start to do some of the stuff that was so conspicuously missing.

Assuming he isn't shoved into the 8 shirt of course.

Don't ficking tempt them!

Well who are you picking? Is it Tom Willis by any chance?

[16th man]

I'd normally be wary of a player coming straight back in as soon as they didn't need the moon boot and crutches to make it to their spot in the changing room.

However.

In this case it's probably a good thing the Curry had his engagement with the omnishambles which was the warm up campaign limited, and he can hopefully come in with some fresh eyes and start to do some of the stuff that was so conspicuously missing.

Assuming he isn't shoved into the 8 shirt of course.

Don't ficking tempt them!

Well who are you picking? Is it Tom Willis by any chance?

Willis, Curry, Ludlum is probably our best balanced unit from the squad. Assuming that Curry is more than the 70% he needs to be at to be an upgrade on Earls and that Captain Courtney isn't inked in to be a yard off the pace. I think it's also the unit which gives Itoje the most opportunity to do what he's really good at and leave some of the other stuff to the back row.

Earls can come off the bench to carry on redefining back row play with 20 to play.

[Banquo]

I know. All the reasons Lawes shouldn't be (or is unlikely to be) at lock again are mentioned every 5 minutes on here, that's sort of what I was getting at.

I can't say I'd noticed him being better than Willis or Earl recently either. Again I'm of the opinion that if 99% of them are playing badly it's not really about form or individual performance anymore.

Just reinforcing it tbh

(Then again, if we wanted to change our game plan and move the ball quickly and use width in attack, he might be worth a thought there. We could field a pretty mobile pack if we wanted to. We'd probably get stuffed tho)

The players we have are more suited to an expansive game plan but both the incumbent and the previous HC refused to go down that route. EJ because England always have a big nasty pack, or similar rubbish, and Stunningly Backwardsgameplan because he knows no other way and/or because he knows the Wiggler isn’t up to it.

I think EJ was pretty clear it was more about we don't have the skill or decision making to do it intly, nor the discipline of the Japanese in learning by rote through a million phases (which doesn't work against tip top teams). I'd tend to agree, which is my big beef (ha ha) with our lack of an end to end development pyramid, myriad of fingers to point here.

[Oakboy]

I'd normally be wary of a player coming straight back in as soon as they didn't need the moon boot and crutches to make it to their spot in the changing room.

However.

In this case it's probably a good thing the Curry had his engagement with the omnishambles which was the warm up campaign limited, and he can hopefully come in with some fresh eyes and start to do some of the stuff that was so conspicuously missing.

Assuming he isn't shoved into the 8 shirt of course.

Don't ficking tempt them!

Well who are you picking? Is it Tom Willis by any chance?

I wish!

There must be a reason that Ludlam is out of favour. As ever, 'starting from here' is the issue. Based on the way J Willis has not been able to play his normal game, I'd shift him to 8, bring Curry in at 7 and persevere with Lawes at 6.

How about you?

[Banquo]

Is Lawes deserving of a second row spot? Does he help with grunt work that Kruis (and briefly Hill) offered?

Farrell and Earl on the poms is a good shout. Can you imagine the ferocity? The intensity? The galvanising effect?

I'm not looking at Lawes at lock anymore - I still think he's a lock playing ersatz flanker, but I also recognise he hasn't played lock in ages and has dropped the weight so that he'll now be an ersatz lock as well. It's the Itoje at 8 argument - we've taken an excellent lock and made a mediocre back row out of him, in an excellent use of our available resources.

Puja

Has he though? I think he is back to the weight he was in 2019.

sources/evidence etc. I wouldn't have said so, judging by his instaaaaaa

[Banquo]

Just reinforcing it tbh

(Then again, if we wanted to change our game plan and move the ball quickly and use width in attack, he might be worth a thought there. We could field a pretty mobile pack if we wanted to. We'd probably get stuffed tho)

I think I'd rather get stuffed playing expansive than get stuffed playing Stupendously Boringball.

It doesn’t even have to be expansive per se, I just want to see us play in a way that better suits the players we have.

It’s all well and good saying that a simple, forward-based, power and kicking game is easier to implement but we don’t seem to have a powerful pack, a reliable kicker at 9 or a particularly good kick chase right now. I can’t really tell if Borthwick sees that or not?

“Heads up rugby” has become a bit of a joke phrase, but I’d love to see the players given a bit of freedom to attack.

Yeah, i was trying to avoid the 'e' word. But you can't impose a game plan on players that aren't any good at it, skill or physique or in this case, both.

[Banquo]

Well that's the side that anybody would say is the default/safe option (with Farrell and Vunipola out) at this point. It's hard to picture him mixing it up too much.

Hardly a daring prediction from Ruck, is it?

Puja

exactly. Mitchell at 9 and Steward moved to wing to accommodate Smith at fb would give us something to talk about.

Where's the mod

[Banquo]

Hardly a daring prediction from Ruck, is it?

Puja

exactly. Mitchell at 9 and Steward moved to wing to accommodate Smith at fb would give us something to talk about.

We might have to wait to the second half to see those guys in those positions. Steward would get gassed for pace by Carreras on the wing for Argentina but it would open up a lot of crossfield opportunity as he's bigger and a lot better in the air. One on one you'd hope he'd have the power to get past him as well.

...you took it seriously!? excellent work.

[Banquo]

The Ruck have gone early with their "inside knowledge" (best guess) for the lineup;

Genge, George, Sinckler
Chessum, Itoje
Lawes, Earl, Willis
Youngs, Ford
Lawrence, Marchant
Daly, Steward, May

I mean, that backline has pretty much everything you need. Yet all it'll do is chase bloody kicks, badly.

well apart from alacrity at 9 ...I could go on, but no point, as without that, the others are irrelevant tbh. I also think its a bit shonky in defence, May being past his sell by date and all that.

[Mikey Brown]

Don't ficking tempt them!

Well who are you picking? Is it Tom Willis by any chance?

I wish!

There must be a reason that Ludlam is out of favour. As ever, 'starting from here' is the issue. Based on the way J Willis has not been able to play his normal game, I'd shift him to 8, bring Curry in at 7 and persevere with Lawes at 6.

How about you?

So just a different club openside then. That was the only point I was making.

I honestly don’t care which one it is at this point but Willis is probably the one with the least recent experience controlling a ball in the scrum or on kick returns.

Probably Ludlam as he’s been filling in there quite a bit since the 6 nations, but as you say he seems to drop down the pecking order quite quickly when all other options are fit.

[jngf]

Here is a reminder of the 33 names in the squad. Based on the warm-ups who was a good, bad, indifferent selection?

Forwards
Ollie Chessum (Leicester Tigers, 9 caps)
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 100 caps)
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 45 caps)
Theo Dan (Saracens, 1 cap)
Ben Earl (Saracens, 15 caps)
Ellis Genge (Bristol Bears, 49 caps)
Jamie George (Saracens, 77 caps)
Maro Itoje (Saracens, 67 caps)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 97 caps)
Lewis Ludlam (Northampton Saints, 20 caps)
Joe Marler (Harlequins, 79 caps)
George Martin (Leicester Tigers, 2 caps)
David Ribbans (Toulon, 6 caps)
Bevan Rodd (Sale Sharks, 3 caps)
Kyle Sinckler (Bristol Bears, 62 caps)
Will Stuart (Bath Rugby, 26 caps)
Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 68 caps)
Jack Walker (Harlequins, 3 caps)
Jack Willis (Toulouse, 10 caps)

Backs
Henry Arundell (Racing 92, 7 caps)
Danny Care (Harlequins, 88 caps)
Elliot Daly (Saracens, 57 caps)
Owen Farrell (Saracens, 106 caps)
George Ford (Sale Sharks, 82 caps)
Ollie Lawrence (Bath Rugby, 11 caps)
Max Malins (Bristol Bears, 19 caps)
Joe Marchant (Stade Francais, 16 caps)
Jonny May (Gloucester, 72 caps)
Alex Mitchell (Northampton Saints, 6 caps)
Marcus Smith (Harlequins, 22 caps)
Freddie Steward (Leicester Tigers, 23 caps)
Manu Tuilagi (Sale Sharks, 51 caps)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 122 caps)

Good:
Chessum
Earl
Genge
George
Itoje
Lawes
Willis
Ford
Lawrence
Marchant
Mitchell
Smith


Bad:
Vunipola
Care
Daly
Farrell
Tuilagi
Youngs

Indifferent (for whatever reason):
Cole
Curry
Dan
Ludlam
Marler
Martin
Ribbans
Rodd
Sinckler
Stuart
Walker
Arundell
Malins
May
Steward

Now, we can debate the three lists for ever. My point in raising this is Dallaglio's contention (yes, I know he's a crap pundit etc.) that players need to own their own performances.

To what extent have good, bad, indifferent performances reflected the individuals' efforts and to what extent has the management simply not provided a platform?

Obviously, Farrell and Vunipola have ballsed-up significantly. Youngs and Care have just confirmed their limitations, arguably.

Beyond that, though, who passed/failed based on their own efforts and who just did not get the chance to justify their selection (even when picked)?

In terms of judging our players can any single one claim to have been picked in their correct position, in a team set-up that suits their game and to have performed to the absolute top level of their ability? I can't name one.

I’d have placed Itoje as indifferent (at best tbh)

[jngf]

Don't ficking tempt them!

Well who are you picking? Is it Tom Willis by any chance?

I wish!

There must be a reason that Ludlam is out of favour. As ever, 'starting from here' is the issue. Based on the way J Willis has not been able to play his normal game, I'd shift him to 8, bring Curry in at 7 and persevere with Lawes at 6.

How about you?

That’s a backrow on the slowish side imo - and Curry’s not as good a 7 as 6 these days

[RJJ]

On one of the rugby podcasts I was listening today, the ex-International they had on (can't remember who it was) said that one of the most important elements the team needs in order to score, is sub-2-second rucks. They then said that the most influential person in achieving that is the scrum half.

And we have Youngs! Oh dear.

[morepork]

Curry is the only thing approximating a genuine 7 you have. The number on your back has a massive bearing on your confidence on the field. He loves the No.7. Let him loose there.

[p/d]

“The back row changes we've had to make probably haven't helped too.“

Wtf!!!

[Oakboy]

“The back row changes we've had to make probably haven't helped too.“

Wtf!!!

They picked a 1st choice 7 who was not fit and an over-the-hill 8 who got himself banned. And, they are surprised/disappointed to have to make changes??????

[16th man]

“The back row changes we've had to make probably haven't helped too.“

Wtf!!!

They picked a 1st choice 7 who was not fit and an over-the-hill 8 who got himself banned. And, they are surprised/disappointed to have to make changes??????

Suggesting that, if they'd had the choice they'd have persevered with both Billy V and Lawes chugging around behind play.

[p/d]

“The back row changes we've had to make probably haven't helped too.“

Wtf!!!

They picked a 1st choice 7 who was not fit and an over-the-hill 8 who got himself banned. And, they are surprised/disappointed to have to make changes??????

Exactly. It is such negative rhetoric. Not having a go at the Kev-ster just find the whole thing ‘we know it isn’t working ,we just don’t know the why’

[Danno]

“The back row changes we've had to make probably haven't helped too.“

Wtf!!!

They picked a 1st choice 7 who was not fit and an over-the-hill 8 who got himself banned. And, they are surprised/disappointed to have to make changes??????

Exactly. It is such negative rhetoric. Not having a go at the Kev-ster just find the whole thing ‘we know it isn’t working ,we just don’t know the why’

Well I'll have a go at the Kev ster.

Where the **** is the defence when the backrow is arguably our strongest potential* unit, and why do you want to keep picking old and slow there?

*key word there