Sandydragon wrote:The US will not impose sanctions on an ally to favour a terrorist group.
1) If you're simply saying that's what they will do or won't do, I agree wit you.
I'm talking about what they ought to do.
2) if you're saying they're right to do what they're doing, that's like saying they shouldn't have opposed the Nazi occupation of France because the French Resistance were terrorists.
If Trump drew a parallel between Israel and the Nazis that would draw comment, just saying. And again it makes no sense, Israel is something of an unpleasant overall mix in this, but the mix does entail contradictions such as Palestinians voting in Israel for the likes of Balad and Hadash, whilst I only did History up to GCSE level I really don't remember reading there being equivalent behaviour in Germany
Yeah, let's not invoke Godwin here. Israel are doing some exceptionally shitty stuff right now, but alluding to Nazi Germany is a) incorrect and b) gives their defenders a chance to wriggle away from criticisms of Israel's behaviour with (not unreasonable) outrage that you're unfairly comparing Israel with the regime responsible for the Holocaust.
Gentlemen, I'm sure Sandy can invoke Godwin's law all by himself if he so desires.
No analogy is perfect as no situation is identical to another. That doesn't make analogies useless or redundant. Personally I don't like to rule out any line of argument in such a general fashion, but that's your call, answers aren't mandatory here.
Digby wrote:If Trump drew a parallel between Israel and the Nazis that would draw comment, just saying. And again it makes no sense, Israel is something of an unpleasant overall mix in this, but the mix does entail contradictions such as Palestinians voting in Israel for the likes of Balad and Hadash, whilst I only did History up to GCSE level I really don't remember reading there being equivalent behaviour in Germany
I'm not going to go into detail if you don't like the analogy. My post from the previous page has no Nazi references; would you prefer to deal with that one?
It's appalling. The actions of Hamas were hardly the unprovoked acts of terror on an innocent polity that Israel are trying to portray them as, but they're also so far beyond the pale that no-one in their right mind could possibly support them, cutting them off from just about every bit of international aid or succor. And, in the process of very actively retaliating to Israel's provocations, they have provided every bit of justification that Netanyahu and his cronies could possibly have ever wanted to wipe Palestine entirely from the map. There's no way they can win - the IDF are basically the US Army's A side and the strength of the casus belli and his political position will give Netanyahu the opportunity to level them with fire.
It's a terrible situation for the gazan civilians and has been for 16+ years. They'll be massacred so the geopolitical wankers can score points and stay in power
This is only good for Netanyahu as far as I can see. Loads of innocents getting in the firing line and a gallon more fuel poured onto the endless fire.
Nothing will change until the occupation ends - 56 years so far. Obviously Hamas can't win a real war so they should be trying to win the PR war in the West with a pacifist strategy. Even that is pretty hopeless but at least it would take away a lot of the excuses in the minds of the Western supporters of Israel. And save lives here and now.
Puja wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 12:09 am
It's appalling. The actions of Hamas were hardly the unprovoked acts of terror on an innocent polity that Israel are trying to portray them as, but they're also so far beyond the pale that no-one in their right mind could possibly support them, cutting them off from just about every bit of international aid or succor. And, in the process of very actively retaliating to Israel's provocations, they have provided every bit of justification that Netanyahu and his cronies could possibly have ever wanted to wipe Palestine entirely from the map. There's no way they can win - the IDF are basically the US Army's A side and the strength of the casus belli and his political position will give Netanyahu the opportunity to level them with fire.
What an awful, awful situation.
Puja
Really stupid by Hamas. But they are not a rational actor. They are terrorists. Apparently Israeli and Allied intelligence corps were deceived into believing that Hamas had become more driven by economic incentives. It was of course just a ruse.
Nothing that I've seen before has changed my viewpoint so suddenly as the images of the massacre of the innocent peace rave partiers and other civilians by Hamas fighters. It's clear that Hamas has a significant amount of support from a part of the Palestinian population, and although the Palestinians have been oppressed, two wrongs do not make a right. And this was worse than wrong. It was horrific.
I'm pretty sure that Israel will exact some terrible vengeance. But to some extent, this time it will be somewhat deserved. If I were an Israeli, I too would probably be experiencing vengeful bloodlust.
Just had to have a chat with my girls about what videos they might see pop up on TikTok or Snapchat, etc, trying and failing to answer when they ask "Why?" and there's just no answer.
It's all just horrible, horrible and there's no end or depth to how horrible it is.
It was so much easier to blame Them. It was bleakly depressing to think They were Us. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
Puja wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 12:09 am
It's appalling. The actions of Hamas were hardly the unprovoked acts of terror on an innocent polity that Israel are trying to portray them as, but they're also so far beyond the pale that no-one in their right mind could possibly support them, cutting them off from just about every bit of international aid or succor. And, in the process of very actively retaliating to Israel's provocations, they have provided every bit of justification that Netanyahu and his cronies could possibly have ever wanted to wipe Palestine entirely from the map. There's no way they can win - the IDF are basically the US Army's A side and the strength of the casus belli and his political position will give Netanyahu the opportunity to level them with fire.
What an awful, awful situation.
Puja
I'm just glad that Trump isn't in the White House. Who knows how much further Netanyahu would go in his retaliation with Trump at his back?
Puja wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 12:09 am
It's appalling. The actions of Hamas were hardly the unprovoked acts of terror on an innocent polity that Israel are trying to portray them as, but they're also so far beyond the pale that no-one in their right mind could possibly support them, cutting them off from just about every bit of international aid or succor. And, in the process of very actively retaliating to Israel's provocations, they have provided every bit of justification that Netanyahu and his cronies could possibly have ever wanted to wipe Palestine entirely from the map. There's no way they can win - the IDF are basically the US Army's A side and the strength of the casus belli and his political position will give Netanyahu the opportunity to level them with fire.
What an awful, awful situation.
Puja
Really stupid by Hamas. But they are not a rational actor. They are terrorists. Apparently Israeli and Allied intelligence corps were deceived into believing that Hamas had become more driven by economic incentives. It was of course just a ruse.
Nothing that I've seen before has changed my viewpoint so suddenly as the images of the massacre of the innocent peace rave partiers and other civilians by Hamas fighters. It's clear that Hamas has a significant amount of support from a part of the Palestinian population, and although the Palestinians have been oppressed, two wrongs do not make a right. And this was worse than wrong. It was horrific.
I'm pretty sure that Israel will exact some terrible vengeance. But to some extent, this time it will be somewhat deserved. If I were an Israeli, I too would probably be experiencing vengeful bloodlust.
Deserved only to the extent that it falls on Hamas themselves.
I would hope that the hypothetical Israeli Zhivago would recognise his bloodlust as the poison that it is (and then get back to campaigning to end the occupation ).
Puja wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 12:09 am
It's appalling. The actions of Hamas were hardly the unprovoked acts of terror on an innocent polity that Israel are trying to portray them as, but they're also so far beyond the pale that no-one in their right mind could possibly support them, cutting them off from just about every bit of international aid or succor. And, in the process of very actively retaliating to Israel's provocations, they have provided every bit of justification that Netanyahu and his cronies could possibly have ever wanted to wipe Palestine entirely from the map. There's no way they can win - the IDF are basically the US Army's A side and the strength of the casus belli and his political position will give Netanyahu the opportunity to level them with fire.
What an awful, awful situation.
Puja
I'm just glad that Trump isn't in the White House. Who knows how much further Netanyahu would go in his retaliation with Trump at his back?
I have to say I think this is the rare scenario of a situation that Trump wouldn't make worse (other than having to hear him speak more, obviously). The Biden administration are determined to show their credentials with unequivocal "We stand with Israel against this unprovoked terrorist outrage" so I don't really know what more support Trump could give.
Zhivago wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 6:04 pm
Really stupid by Hamas. But they are not a rational actor. They are terrorists. Apparently Israeli and Allied intelligence corps were deceived into believing that Hamas had become more driven by economic incentives. It was of course just a ruse.
This bit baffles me. The Israeli provocations have become more and more blatant over the last year, both on a state and an individual level, with some lone right wing nutters seemingly looking to see how much they could get away with before somebody snapped. Who is in intelligence and thinking that Hamas, that well-known group of level heads, is going to be restrained forever?
Puja wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 12:09 am
It's appalling. The actions of Hamas were hardly the unprovoked acts of terror on an innocent polity that Israel are trying to portray them as, but they're also so far beyond the pale that no-one in their right mind could possibly support them, cutting them off from just about every bit of international aid or succor. And, in the process of very actively retaliating to Israel's provocations, they have provided every bit of justification that Netanyahu and his cronies could possibly have ever wanted to wipe Palestine entirely from the map. There's no way they can win - the IDF are basically the US Army's A side and the strength of the casus belli and his political position will give Netanyahu the opportunity to level them with fire.
What an awful, awful situation.
Puja
I'm just glad that Trump isn't in the White House. Who knows how much further Netanyahu would go in his retaliation with Trump at his back?
I have to say I think this is the rare scenario of a situation that Trump wouldn't make worse (other than having to hear him speak more, obviously). The Biden administration are determined to show their credentials with unequivocal "We stand with Israel against this unprovoked terrorist outrage" so I don't really know what more support Trump could give.
Puja
I'm afraid that with Trump, Netanyahu might have considered really going for ethnic cleansing in Gaza, which for all Biden's tough words I doubt would be acceptable.
Son of Mathonwy wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 9:12 pm
I'm just glad that Trump isn't in the White House. Who knows how much further Netanyahu would go in his retaliation with Trump at his back?
I have to say I think this is the rare scenario of a situation that Trump wouldn't make worse (other than having to hear him speak more, obviously). The Biden administration are determined to show their credentials with unequivocal "We stand with Israel against this unprovoked terrorist outrage" so I don't really know what more support Trump could give.
Puja
I'm afraid that with Trump, Netanyahu might have considered really going for ethnic cleansing in Gaza, which for all Biden's tough words I doubt would be acceptable.
I think you might be being optimistic on where Netanyahu's planning on stopping.
My trouble with this is...the only people who benefit from this attack are the Israeli government and Saudi Arabia. And therefore, imo, it's probably the worst thing that could happen right now politically, for the entire planet.
Therefore...why the hell would a group bent on rights do this? This screams to me of manufactured war. And I know I'll get called heartless for saying it, but I just cannot bring myself to stand with Israel. How the hell do a load of fighters get through the previously watertight Israeli defences?
And I know this could be compared to other 'conspiracy theories', but when you know the politics of the region, this does look fishy...
Sorry.
Obviously, I'm really sorry for the families of those impacted, and those who have lost lives and loved ones.
Stom wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 9:41 am
My trouble with this is...the only people who benefit from this attack are the Israeli government and Saudi Arabia. And therefore, imo, it's probably the worst thing that could happen right now politically, for the entire planet.
Therefore...why the hell would a group bent on rights do this? This screams to me of manufactured war. And I know I'll get called heartless for saying it, but I just cannot bring myself to stand with Israel. How the hell do a load of fighters get through the previously watertight Israeli defences?
And I know this could be compared to other 'conspiracy theories', but when you know the politics of the region, this does look fishy...
Sorry.
Obviously, I'm really sorry for the families of those impacted, and those who have lost lives and loved ones.
In it benefits Iran aswell who were being sidelined by Saudi, now they're back in and vlad is loving this too, Israel is far more important than Ukraine politically to the US
Israel may have dropped the ball as the west bank is madness since bibi put a terrorist in his cabinet
Aside I read recently that bibi rose to power on the back of his brothers death rescuing hostages in Uganda from gadaffi/amin.
Grim, genocidal language from the Israeli government:
The siege was announced by defence minister Yoav Gallant on Monday. “I have ordered a complete siege on the Gaza Strip. There will be no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closed,” Gallant says.
He added: “We are fighting human animals and we are acting accordingly.“
Puja wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 12:09 am
It's appalling. The actions of Hamas were hardly the unprovoked acts of terror on an innocent polity that Israel are trying to portray them as, but they're also so far beyond the pale that no-one in their right mind could possibly support them, cutting them off from just about every bit of international aid or succor. And, in the process of very actively retaliating to Israel's provocations, they have provided every bit of justification that Netanyahu and his cronies could possibly have ever wanted to wipe Palestine entirely from the map. There's no way they can win - the IDF are basically the US Army's A side and the strength of the casus belli and his political position will give Netanyahu the opportunity to level them with fire.
What an awful, awful situation.
Puja
Really stupid by Hamas. But they are not a rational actor. They are terrorists. Apparently Israeli and Allied intelligence corps were deceived into believing that Hamas had become more driven by economic incentives. It was of course just a ruse.
Nothing that I've seen before has changed my viewpoint so suddenly as the images of the massacre of the innocent peace rave partiers and other civilians by Hamas fighters. It's clear that Hamas has a significant amount of support from a part of the Palestinian population, and although the Palestinians have been oppressed, two wrongs do not make a right. And this was worse than wrong. It was horrific.
I'm pretty sure that Israel will exact some terrible vengeance. But to some extent, this time it will be somewhat deserved. If I were an Israeli, I too would probably be experiencing vengeful bloodlust.
But if Hamas had waited then more Arab states would have recognised Israel, which undermines their cause. The deal with Saudi Arabia is badly hurt by this.
Hamas want what’s coming. Killing a few hundred Israelis they won’t mind but it’s not the objective. They can’t beat Israel, not even with Hizbollah potentially helping.
There’s a chance that this could undermine Netanyahu, after all you can’t campaign on being strong on security if this sort of attack happens. But events like this are more likely to push Israel further into repressive measures, which will grow the next generation of terrorist somewhere.
Stom wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 9:41 am
My trouble with this is...the only people who benefit from this attack are the Israeli government and Saudi Arabia. And therefore, imo, it's probably the worst thing that could happen right now politically, for the entire planet.
Therefore...why the hell would a group bent on rights do this? This screams to me of manufactured war. And I know I'll get called heartless for saying it, but I just cannot bring myself to stand with Israel. How the hell do a load of fighters get through the previously watertight Israeli defences?
And I know this could be compared to other 'conspiracy theories', but when you know the politics of the region, this does look fishy...
Sorry.
Obviously, I'm really sorry for the families of those impacted, and those who have lost lives and loved ones.
).
