QF v Fiji

[Mellsblue]

I've said it several times - we will see no real progress/development till BOTH Farrell and Ford are off the international scene.

On the one hand, apparently/reportedly, the more skilful FH, Ford, does not get enough out of the other players.

On the other hand, apparently/reportedly, Farrell, the less skilful FH, gets wonderful response from the other players - even though we cannot understand that and match performances/results rarely (if ever) reflect it.

Smith did not set the world alight when he had a few games at FH but he looks to me to be capable of more than he ever showed given the right selection around him, the right match strategy and the total, permanent absence from consideration of Farrell and Ford.

Several is an understatement - I’d have gone for numerous

[Oakboy]

I've said it several times - we will see no real progress/development till BOTH Farrell and Ford are off the international scene.

On the one hand, apparently/reportedly, the more skilful FH, Ford, does not get enough out of the other players.

On the other hand, apparently/reportedly, Farrell, the less skilful FH, gets wonderful response from the other players - even though we cannot understand that and match performances/results rarely (if ever) reflect it.

Smith did not set the world alight when he had a few games at FH but he looks to me to be capable of more than he ever showed given the right selection around him, the right match strategy and the total, permanent absence from consideration of Farrell and Ford.

Several is an understatement - I’d have gone for numerous

One factor that might come home to roost is if Farrell gets booed. The muted response to his record points achievement, fans more vociferous dislike and disapproval from punditry must be registering. Wigglesworth's quotes seemed ultra-defensive. I fear for team morale if the booing starts.

[fivepointer]

It’s still funny to me how quickly these threads gets OTT, with Farrell sounding like the worst player ever to be capped. It’s such a shame he was anointed near-god status so early on in his career and not forced to go away and work on the consistency of his passing, kicking, tackling - well everything, let’s be honest.

We joke about his poor passing particularly (media seemed to have turned on him over poor kicking but still never see this part of his game mentioned) but that showing on Saturday was just horrendous.

I was listening to a podcast with Sean Maitland the other day, saying how he is admittedly way, way too laid back on the pitch and especially in training, but Farrell’s presence “has me willing to run through walls for that guy”. Every moment gets your full focus and every training run gets test match intensity. It’s saccharine stuff but it does mean a lot.

It may be OTT but I don’t believe numerous players and coaches say this stuff just to suck up to him. I do think he has a huge motivating affect on those around him, but it may be more in line with Homer Simpson’s management style - “everybody always said they have to work a lot harder when I’m around”.

I can see why that is an absolute dream for a coach, but unfortunately it isn’t matched by the consistency of his skillset and his ability to direct/rally his team when the plan isn’t working. As well as the dearth at 12 leading to years of wonky, imbalanced midfields.

I think about that France game in the 6 nations where we were getting absolutely battered. You could feel the mood change a bit when he came on, and honestly when he made that move come together down the right it felt for a moment like all the fanboys might be right.

Again I don’t think he deserves to be starting, and the status he holds is damaging to everyone (including him) but I do think he’s a useful presence in the squad and the next best thing to being able to send a coach on to the field if a game-plan needs adjusting.

His problem has been when a game doesn’t play out the way it’s expected to he just continues hammering plan A into the ground. A coach seeing how it’s unfolding, where to attack and where to change things up, whether we need people to stop making easy yards down the 10 channel or get an extra set of eyes/hands to assist the flyhalf, does offer a lot of value.

I don’t really trust his ability to judge this stuff himself though.

Let’s also consider that while I rate Ford pretty much as highly as any of you he has also had dozens of game where he is just belting the ball away with little gain and losing ground in defence. You’d think he plays like that NZ/Scotland game every week.

Yep, people overreact, and do so for Ford in the opposite direction, but it’s probably due to this mythical status he’s had for near on a decade - the need to pick him first and not worry about team balance started immediately: he was shoehorned into the England team at 20 years old at OC… OC ffs, he’s a slow flyhalf…
My personal dislike of the situation is twofold. Firstly, he’s blocked players who, imo, are more talented, eg Ford for England and Goode for Sarries. That might just be what I want in my 10 but I believe he’s blocked those two reaching their potential when he is inferior to both. Secondly, and this is the main one, is the fact he’s lionised due to he non playing qualities eg being a winner, a great leader of men, work rate etc. You never hear how he has the best pass in the country, the tactical acumen to change tactics as a game evolves etc which is the praise I want aimed at a 10. These leads on to how everyone hangs the praise for his playing talents on place kicking, eg when he misses a sitter but then nails the next one as proof of iceman status or consistent lauding of his place kicking acumen when in recent years Ford has a higher %, when this hasn’t been warranted for a while if ever - his kicking % has never been truly world class, ie 85% or above, iirc.
He’s a decent test player and a good club player, albeit with an armchair ride 90% of the time, but the idea he’s world class is for the birds imo.
Tldr, he’s elevation to this near undroppable status doesn’t feel meritocratic if based on on-field performance.

Coaches do value the off the field stuff. Someone setting standards, geeing everyone up, always positive and enthusiastic. It does matter. I dont think there's any doubt that Farrell is a committed professional and team player who does set a good example. Coaches like that.
I also think he's not quite the dreadful player we make out at times. Sure he has his limitations but enough coaches have picked him and trusted him at 10 or 12, and to be made captain regularly.
My hope is that post WC he will be stood down. Clearly what we have now is a bodge that will take us through the WC but this cannot go on. We need to field our best players in their best positions and invest time and effort in nurturing some talent, particularly in our backs. The days of someone filling in at inside centre have to end.
For now, Farrell will play as he was always going to play.

[Danno]

The best thing about Farrell is he'll be coaching as soon as he retires from playing so uhh....

[Mellsblue]

It’s still funny to me how quickly these threads gets OTT, with Farrell sounding like the worst player ever to be capped. It’s such a shame he was anointed near-god status so early on in his career and not forced to go away and work on the consistency of his passing, kicking, tackling - well everything, let’s be honest.

We joke about his poor passing particularly (media seemed to have turned on him over poor kicking but still never see this part of his game mentioned) but that showing on Saturday was just horrendous.

I was listening to a podcast with Sean Maitland the other day, saying how he is admittedly way, way too laid back on the pitch and especially in training, but Farrell’s presence “has me willing to run through walls for that guy”. Every moment gets your full focus and every training run gets test match intensity. It’s saccharine stuff but it does mean a lot.

It may be OTT but I don’t believe numerous players and coaches say this stuff just to suck up to him. I do think he has a huge motivating affect on those around him, but it may be more in line with Homer Simpson’s management style - “everybody always said they have to work a lot harder when I’m around”.

I can see why that is an absolute dream for a coach, but unfortunately it isn’t matched by the consistency of his skillset and his ability to direct/rally his team when the plan isn’t working. As well as the dearth at 12 leading to years of wonky, imbalanced midfields.

I think about that France game in the 6 nations where we were getting absolutely battered. You could feel the mood change a bit when he came on, and honestly when he made that move come together down the right it felt for a moment like all the fanboys might be right.

Again I don’t think he deserves to be starting, and the status he holds is damaging to everyone (including him) but I do think he’s a useful presence in the squad and the next best thing to being able to send a coach on to the field if a game-plan needs adjusting.

His problem has been when a game doesn’t play out the way it’s expected to he just continues hammering plan A into the ground. A coach seeing how it’s unfolding, where to attack and where to change things up, whether we need people to stop making easy yards down the 10 channel or get an extra set of eyes/hands to assist the flyhalf, does offer a lot of value.

I don’t really trust his ability to judge this stuff himself though.

Let’s also consider that while I rate Ford pretty much as highly as any of you he has also had dozens of game where he is just belting the ball away with little gain and losing ground in defence. You’d think he plays like that NZ/Scotland game every week.

Yep, people overreact, and do so for Ford in the opposite direction, but it’s probably due to this mythical status he’s had for near on a decade - the need to pick him first and not worry about team balance started immediately: he was shoehorned into the England team at 20 years old at OC… OC ffs, he’s a slow flyhalf…
My personal dislike of the situation is twofold. Firstly, he’s blocked players who, imo, are more talented, eg Ford for England and Goode for Sarries. That might just be what I want in my 10 but I believe he’s blocked those two reaching their potential when he is inferior to both. Secondly, and this is the main one, is the fact he’s lionised due to he non playing qualities eg being a winner, a great leader of men, work rate etc. You never hear how he has the best pass in the country, the tactical acumen to change tactics as a game evolves etc which is the praise I want aimed at a 10. These leads on to how everyone hangs the praise for his playing talents on place kicking, eg when he misses a sitter but then nails the next one as proof of iceman status or consistent lauding of his place kicking acumen when in recent years Ford has a higher %, when this hasn’t been warranted for a while if ever - his kicking % has never been truly world class, ie 85% or above, iirc.
He’s a decent test player and a good club player, albeit with an armchair ride 90% of the time, but the idea he’s world class is for the birds imo.
Tldr, he’s elevation to this near undroppable status doesn’t feel meritocratic if based on on-field performance.

Coaches do value the off the field stuff. Someone setting standards, geeing everyone up, always positive and enthusiastic. It does matter. I dont think there's any doubt that Farrell is a committed professional and team player who does set a good example. Coaches like that.
I also think he's not quite the dreadful player we make out at times. Sure he has his limitations but enough coaches have picked him and trusted him at 10 or 12, and to be made captain regularly.
My hope is that post WC he will be stood down. Clearly what we have now is a bodge that will take us through the WC but this cannot go on. We need to field our best players in their best positions and invest time and effort in nurturing some talent, particularly in our backs. The days of someone filling in at inside centre have to end.
For now, Farrell will play as he was always going to play.

I’ve no problems with them valuing the off field stuff as it is vitally important but there are certain positions where being the hardest worker and leading by example aren’t really enough to make you undroppable. I’ve no problem with Mark Wilson being picked for his work rate and leadership skills, his comments during an epic try line defence against I can’t remember who were brilliant, but it’s not really top of my list of attributes for the brains of the team.

[p/d]

Anyhoo. Daly to wear the 13 shirt with Marchant on the wing. Clear plan to swap them for defence and attack............

... and yet they still overlook Steward at 12. The fools

[Mellsblue]

Anyhoo. Daly to wear the 13 shirt with Marchant on the wing. Clear plan to swap them for defence and attack............

... and yet they still overlook Steward at 12. The fools

I can confirm Daly is back in the team. He gave a rousing speech about the Battle of Agincourt as the squad left the hotel in Le Touquet and led the players through the streets shoulder barging any Frenchman they could find in the head. Wigglesworth described it as the single greatest piece of leadership and winnering he’d ever seen.

[Epaminondas Pules]

Apparently over 6k tickets still unsold for the QF. I think people would rather shit in their hands and clap that watch this shite.

[Beasties]

Apparently over 6k tickets still unsold for the QF. I think people would rather shit in their hands and clap that watch this shite.

[Beasties]

Anyhoo. Daly to wear the 13 shirt with Marchant on the wing. Clear plan to swap them for defence and attack............

... and yet they still overlook Steward at 12. The fools

We’re in a right old muddle. Might as well roll the dice again.

[Mikey Brown]

The best thing about Farrell is he'll be coaching as soon as he retires from playing so uhh....

He might be great though? I just hope if he does go that route there's no fast-tracking or any desperation to get him involved with England again for 2027/2031. If he takes the O'Gara route and we end up with a coach like his dad then I won't be complaining, but you worry he'll just waltz in to a high level coaching position because of that intangible, icey aura.

[Danno]

The best thing about Farrell is he'll be coaching as soon as he retires from playing so uhh....

but you worry he'll just waltz in to a high level coaching position because of that intangible, icey aura.

This is precisely what will happen

[Banquo]

Ford, does not get enough out of the other players.
Farrell, the less skilful FH, gets wonderful response from the other players - match performances/results rarely (if ever) reflect it.

Smith did not set the world alight when he had a few games at FH

see, do you not see what the root issue is here.(.....parking Faz for a second...)

[Banquo]

It’s still funny to me how quickly these threads gets OTT, with Farrell sounding like the worst player ever to be capped. It’s such a shame he was anointed near-god status so early on in his career and not forced to go away and work on the consistency of his passing, kicking, tackling - well everything, let’s be honest.

We joke about his poor passing particularly (media seemed to have turned on him over poor kicking but still never see this part of his game mentioned) but that showing on Saturday was just horrendous.

I was listening to a podcast with Sean Maitland the other day, saying how he is admittedly way, way too laid back on the pitch and especially in training, but Farrell’s presence “has me willing to run through walls for that guy”. Every moment gets your full focus and every training run gets test match intensity. It’s saccharine stuff but it does mean a lot.

It may be OTT but I don’t believe numerous players and coaches say this stuff just to suck up to him. I do think he has a huge motivating affect on those around him, but it may be more in line with Homer Simpson’s management style - “everybody always said they have to work a lot harder when I’m around”.

I can see why that is an absolute dream for a coach, but unfortunately it isn’t matched by the consistency of his skillset and his ability to direct/rally his team when the plan isn’t working. As well as the dearth at 12 leading to years of wonky, imbalanced midfields.

I think about that France game in the 6 nations where we were getting absolutely battered. You could feel the mood change a bit when he came on, and honestly when he made that move come together down the right it felt for a moment like all the fanboys might be right.

Again I don’t think he deserves to be starting, and the status he holds is damaging to everyone (including him) but I do think he’s a useful presence in the squad and the next best thing to being able to send a coach on to the field if a game-plan needs adjusting.

His problem has been when a game doesn’t play out the way it’s expected to he just continues hammering plan A into the ground. A coach seeing how it’s unfolding, where to attack and where to change things up, whether we need people to stop making easy yards down the 10 channel or get an extra set of eyes/hands to assist the flyhalf, does offer a lot of value.

I don’t really trust his ability to judge this stuff himself though.

Let’s also consider that while I rate Ford pretty much as highly as any of you he has also had dozens of game where he is just belting the ball away with little gain and losing ground in defence. You’d think he plays like that NZ/Scotland game every week.

Yep, people overreact, and do so for Ford in the opposite direction, but it’s probably due to this mythical status he’s had for near on a decade - the need to pick him first and not worry about team balance started immediately: he was shoehorned into the England team at 20 years old at OC… OC ffs, he’s a slow flyhalf…
My personal dislike of the situation is twofold. Firstly, he’s blocked players who, imo, are more talented, eg Ford for England and Goode for Sarries. That might just be what I want in my 10 but I believe he’s blocked those two reaching their potential when he is inferior to both. Secondly, and this is the main one, is the fact he’s lionised due to he non playing qualities eg being a winner, a great leader of men, work rate etc. You never hear how he has the best pass in the country, the tactical acumen to change tactics as a game evolves etc which is the praise I want aimed at a 10. These leads on to how everyone hangs the praise for his playing talents on place kicking, eg when he misses a sitter but then nails the next one as proof of iceman status or consistent lauding of his place kicking acumen when in recent years Ford has a higher %, when this hasn’t been warranted for a while if ever - his kicking % has never been truly world class, ie 85% or above, iirc.
He’s a decent test player and a good club player, albeit with an armchair ride 90% of the time, but the idea he’s world class is for the birds imo.
Tldr, he’s elevation to this near undroppable status doesn’t feel meritocratic if based on on-field performance.

Coaches do value the off the field stuff. Someone setting standards, geeing everyone up, always positive and enthusiastic. It does matter. I dont think there's any doubt that Farrell is a committed professional and team player who does set a good example. Coaches like that.
I also think he's not quite the dreadful player we make out at times. Sure he has his limitations but enough coaches have picked him and trusted him at 10 or 12, and to be made captain regularly.
My hope is that post WC he will be stood down. Clearly what we have now is a bodge that will take us through the WC but this cannot go on. We need to field our best players in their best positions and invest time and effort in nurturing some talent, particularly in our backs. The days of someone filling in at inside centre have to end.
For now, Farrell will play as he was always going to play.

To be fair, in all my undending critiquing of the Farrelator, I've never said he's a dreadful player; like others he does dreadful things (notably in defence and burning overlaps), but he's a good club 10 behind an excellent pack (generally); he's a mediocre international 10, mostly because he isn't an especially good scanner of the field, and his skill set is limited and less than instinctive-- but he qualifies as mediocre because his work rate and defence at 10 (when not dangerous, and he's a very good scramble defender) is handy, and again, with a dominent pack his territorial kicking works; but we don't have that, so that makes him not the guy we need as a starter. As a 12, well he never plays there for Sarries any more, and he's a poor intl 12 despite Puja's relentless cheerleading (his defence is much more of a dog legging liability, he's a handbrake in attack, and makes less yards than Dan Cole carrying). But I'm bu55ered if I know why he has more than 100 caps judged simply on playing ability and skill (well I do know, it just annoys me ).

[Banquo]

Apparently over 6k tickets still unsold for the QF. I think people would rather shit in their hands and clap that watch this shite.

TBH I think that's more about ticket and travel prices.

[Oakboy]

Ford, does not get enough out of the other players.
Farrell, the less skilful FH, gets wonderful response from the other players - match performances/results rarely (if ever) reflect it.

Smith did not set the world alight when he had a few games at FH

see, do you not see what the root issue is here.(.....parking Faz for a second...)

I may not be very bright but I've never stopped learning from you. Please enlighten me . . .

[Mikey Brown]

Oh god.

[Oakboy]

Oh god.

Puja, does he mean you?

[jngf]

The best thing about Farrell is he'll be coaching as soon as he retires from playing so uhh....

It’s rarely the best players who make the best coaches so with any luck he’s a chip off the old block

[Banquo]

Ford, does not get enough out of the other players.
Farrell, the less skilful FH, gets wonderful response from the other players - match performances/results rarely (if ever) reflect it.

Smith did not set the world alight when he had a few games at FH

see, do you not see what the root issue is here.(.....parking Faz for a second...)

I may not be very bright but I've never stopped learning from you. Please enlighten me . . .

You can't make bricks out of straw etc

[jngf]

The biggest failing of the past decade of England is that George Ford has not gone down in history as an England legend.

He's ridiculously talented, but the mismanagement is insane.

Oh, and as a second thought...whoever said having Farrell on the bench for his 'reliable goal kicking'... I'm pretty sure Smith's kicking is better than Farrell's since Smith broke through. And that's saying something considering how hit and miss Smith was in his first season.

I'd love to see a breakdown of our ruck stats, too, with and without Lawes. I just can't get my head around him, either. He does perform well every now and again, but he still negatively impacts our breakdown. Oh, with and without Billy, too. It's just impossible not to think that a backrow with Curry, Earl, and Ludlam/another flank isn't going to be quick to rucks.

There is so much that has been puzzling about Eng for many years. This WC campaign feels like SB’s gradually morphed into Eddie, and Eddie never left. I had high hopes that we’d see a better team and gameplan, but the brief hope at the start of the campaign has just had a big floppy heavy blanket thrown on top of it.

If Fiji actually get their act together they might win. That wouldn’t be the best outcome imo. I’m now actually hoping we get through so that SB selects the same team which will result in the inevitable utter rodgering in the SF, and that will bring about a real change of attitude from everyone involved. I’m beyond sick of this. How anyone can liken Farrell to Saint Jonny I have no idea, there really is no comparison.

It’s a bit like wondering how could anyone still defend bojo after stinking out 10 Downing Street during a national crisis

[Insouciant]

It’s a bit like wondering how could anyone still defend bojo after stinking out 10 Downing Street during a national crisis

Turns out the England set up is populated by Nadine Dorries impersonators. That may explain the performances.

[loudnconfident]

Apparently over 6k tickets still unsold for the QF. I think people would rather shit in their hands and clap that watch this shite.

TBH I think that's more about ticket and travel prices.

I read somewhere that many of the resale tix are from Oz fans who thought they'd be in the QFs. As you say, it's tough getting to the SoF last minute.

[Insouciant]

The one thing that does occur to me if Smith is 15 and Farrell is 10 is that Farrell may have been picked for his defensive abilities. Yes this might where we tbh. If you have Ford and Smith starting 10/15 respectively, then Fiji would have two weak targets to run at. Whilst Ford doesn't miss so many tackles, Fiji would likely break the gain-line often if they are both there. It also means whoever is next to them in defence might have an eye on them, and leave gaps elsewhere. If Smith is at 15 as someone who might spark the attack, then maybe he's more hide-able defensively.

Whilst I'd rather see Ford at 10 and Smith on the bench, maybe Stygian Binmen thinks that against a side with such a powerful running threat that Farrell is the best placed of the three to 'shoulder' (boom boom) a defensive burden .

[Oakboy]

Of course, if Ford comes off the bench we will have that crap 10/12 combo again because Farrell will stay on.