Trump

[WiganShark]

Also in the Huff, green light for any gun toting idiot to have a pop at her. http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/d ... _hp_ref=uk

[Sandydragon]

wow and now he hints at the possibility that his supporters could assasinate Hillary
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... -amendment

There was a piece in the times today about the need for trump to get on message and concentrate on appearing intelligent about the economy this week.

Looks like he didn't read it. What is worrying is how much hatred he is stoking up. Already he has raised the prospect of any defeat being the result of a conspiracy, and some of his supporters look stupid enough to believe anything that comes out of his mouth.

He is as thick as a Yeti's cock. Unfortunately it is reality TV hour, so...

It's a real race to the bottom, despite Hilary's attempts to look less shyte. Not very inspiring.

[rowan]

Trump's next scandalous statement: 'America is a capitalist, racist gun culture and invades other countries for oil!'

And the world shall laugh at this absurdity also, because Trump the circus clown claimed it. Pure genius!

[Mikey Brown]

Trump's next scandalous statement: 'America is a capitalist, racist gun culture and invades other countries for oil!'

And the world shall laugh at this absurdity also, because Trump the circus clown claimed it. Pure genius!

Masterful, really.

[cashead]

There was a piece in the times today about the need for trump to get on message and concentrate on appearing intelligent about the economy this week.

Looks like he didn't read it. What is worrying is how much hatred he is stoking up. Already he has raised the prospect of any defeat being the result of a conspiracy, and some of his supporters look stupid enough to believe anything that comes out of his mouth.

He is as thick as a Yeti's cock. Unfortunately it is reality TV hour, so...

It's a real race to the bottom, despite Hilary's attempts to look less shyte. Not very inspiring.

It's really more an idictment on how fucking worthless the Republicans have been all the way through. A man with paper-thin skin, who's a complete buffoon, and the establishment candidates couldn't do squat to stop him. In the end, he won because his rhetoric was the last 12 years or so of Republican rhetoric ramped up all the way to 11, bullhorning rather than dogwhistling. He's not the candidate they need if they want to remain a significant force in presidential elections over the next few cycles, but he's the candidate they deserve.

[Sandydragon]

I think it's highlighted a real disparity between their leadership and their registered voters.

[cashead]

I think it's highlighted a real disparity between their leadership and their registered voters.

The GOP knew exactly what the were doing when they railed against minorities, women, gay people, etc, and what kind of vote they were courting. As I said, not the candidate they need to remain a credible force in presidential elections, but the candidate they deserve right now.

[rowan]

About Obama creating ISIS, where do you think they got all those Toyotas from? Japan?

I think Trump says a lot of stupid things then suddenly comes out with something logical - like the invasion of Iraq was wrong, or Obama created ISIS - and we're all supposed to pooh pooh that is well because it's Trump speaking. Nice ploy, but it only works on stupid people.

[Digby]

About Obama creating ISIS, where do you think they got all those Toyotas from? Japan?

I think Trump says a lot of stupid things then suddenly comes out with something logical - like the invasion of Iraq was wrong, or Obama created ISIS - and we're all supposed to pooh pooh that is well because it's Trump speaking. Nice ploy, but it only works on stupid people.

You think Obama created ISIS well ahead of becoming president in anticipation of amongst other things a future need to supply them Toyotas?

[rowan]

About Obama creating ISIS, where do you think they got all those Toyotas from? Japan?

I think Trump says a lot of stupid things then suddenly comes out with something logical - like the invasion of Iraq was wrong, or Obama created ISIS - and we're all supposed to pooh pooh that is well because it's Trump speaking. Nice ploy, but it only works on stupid people.

You think Obama created ISIS well ahead of becoming president in anticipation of amongst other things a future need to supply them Toyotas?

No, I think he created them by sending in rebels to destabilize Syria as a pretext for regime change.

[Digby]

About Obama creating ISIS, where do you think they got all those Toyotas from? Japan?

I think Trump says a lot of stupid things then suddenly comes out with something logical - like the invasion of Iraq was wrong, or Obama created ISIS - and we're all supposed to pooh pooh that is well because it's Trump speaking. Nice ploy, but it only works on stupid people.

You think Obama created ISIS well ahead of becoming president in anticipation of amongst other things a future need to supply them Toyotas?

No, I think he created them by sending in rebels to destabilize Syria as a pretext for regime change.

Well the predate Obama, though you may simply be saying Obama to mean to the US President, or perhaps the CIA, or you may mean Obama advanced their cause/situation. It's a pretty offensive thing to suggest, it's not a hard conspiracy theory to follow about wanting boots on the ground, unstable regimes and access to oil across the region, but I'd judge there to be nothing in Obama's character about creating ISIS given their brutality

[rowan]

You think Obama created ISIS well ahead of becoming president in anticipation of amongst other things a future need to supply them Toyotas?

No, I think he created them by sending in rebels to destabilize Syria as a pretext for regime change.

Well the predate Obama, though you may simply be saying Obama to mean to the US President, or perhaps the CIA, or you may mean Obama advanced their cause/situation. It's a pretty offensive thing to suggest, it's not a hard conspiracy theory to follow about wanting boots on the ground, unstable regimes and access to oil across the region, but I'd judge there to be nothing in Obama's character about creating ISIS given their brutality

This is a somewhat naive view of the situation. In reality no such group calling itself ISIS exists. This is an invention of the media, the photo ops and Hollywood-style video clips are purely for show, and they have no interest in attacking European or North American targets. Furthermore, Obama is little more than a spokesperson for the international billionaires club which runs America and much of the world. When we refer to 'ISIS,' we are referring only to Jihadis and other mercenaries funded by Saudi and trained and equipped by the CIA & Mossad. Many of those recruited for this particular assignment were Sunni Iraqis disenfranchised by Bush & Blair's invasion of Iraq, while many of their Syrian counterpars have now become trapped in their own country by the unssuccessful assault on Damascus. They are the ones who are busying themselves terrorizing the Kurds and attempting to carve out a homeland in the north of Syria & Iraq (to which the Kurds are indigenous). So when stating Obama created ISIS, Trump was correct in so much as the jihadists referred to as 'ISIS' rose to prominence as a result of America's interference in Syria during the term of Obama's presidency. But the entire issue is a great deal more complex than that, of course.

[cashead]

Are we actually going to entertain conspiracy theories like that? What next? Chemtrails and a falsified moon landing?

[Donny osmond]

A useful article on it. To me it seems like you could argue that the 2003 invasion is an underlying factor but I wouldn't call it the foundation that isis is built on.

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/01/04/opini ... n-of-isis/

Story highlights

Peter Bergen: There's little factual support for Donald Trump's claim that the President and ex-secretary of state enabled rise of ISISHe says four factors, largely outside of U.S. control, gave rise to ISIS

Peter Bergen is CNN's national security analyst, a vice president at New America and a professor of practice at Arizona State University. He is the author of the forthcoming book "United States of Jihad: Investigating America's Homegrown Terrorists."

(CNN)Donald Trump said on Saturday that President Barack Obama and former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton "created ISIS."

Like many of Trump's charges this one doesn't hold much water. Clinton left the State Department in January 2013 and ISIS wasn't even founded until three months later.

But Trump's charge does raise an interesting question, which is how best to assign responsibility for the rise of ISIS, including the issue of how might the Obama administration's exit from Iraq at the end of 2011 have helped smooth the path for ISIS?

It began with a thug

The rise of ISIS starts with a Jordanian thug named Abu Musab al-Zarqawi who founded ISIS' parent organization, al Qaeda in Iraq.

It was Zarqawi who inaugurated al Qaeda in Iraq's televised beheadings with the killing of American businessman Nick Berg in 2004. And it was Zarqawi who ignited a civil war against the Shiites in Iraq the same year. These tactics and policies remain today at the core of ISIS.


What gave Zarqawi the opportunity to create al Qaeda in Iraq? It was, of course, George W. Bush's decision to invade Iraq in 2003. Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein brutally repressed all forms of opposition to his regime and before the Iraq War al Qaeda had no presence in Iraq.

Al Qaeda in Iraq grew in strength in 2006 so that it controlled much of the massive Anbar province in western Iraq. At the beginning of 2007, Bush authorized a surge of new troops and brought in a new commander, David Petraeus. Allied with a movement of Sunni tribesmen angered by al Qaeda known as "the Awakening," U.S. troops had largely extirpated al Qaeda from Iraq by 2008.

The 4 big factors

So how did al Qaeda in Iraq surge back as ISIS?


There are four big factors. The first is the Syrian civil war, which launched in 2011 in reaction to President Bashar al-Assad's brutal repression of peaceful protests against his dictatorship. Elements of what would become ISIS traveled from Iraq into Syria to fight against Assad. Those forces gained strength in Syria, which they drew upon when they re-entered Iraq as a reinvigorated force in 2013, seizing much of Anbar a year later as well as Mosul, the second-largest city in Iraq.

The second factor was the role that some of Hussein's former officer corps played in helping ISIS to its victories. A number of the late dictator's former commanders helped to professionalize ISIS as a fighting force. (The Bush administration's decision to disband the Iraqi army in 2003 had helped push some Iraqi officers to join Sunni militant groups.)

The third factor was the feckless and incompetent rule of then-Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki, who marginalized Sunnis and disenfranchised them from Iraq's political process to the point that many Sunnis preferred the rule of the Islamist militants in ISIS to that of the "Shia" government in Baghdad. Inexplicably, the Obama White House Kept backing Maliki despite his manifest flaws as a leader.

The fourth factor was the hollowing out of the Iraqi army, which simply ran away as ISIS made its most dramatic advances during the first half of 2014. The Iraqi army was poorly led, poorly paid and riven with corruption.

None of these factors can be easily ascribed to Obama or to Clinton, although certainly they did preside over the withdrawal of all U.S. troops from Iraq at the end of 2011, a plan bequeathed to them by Bush.

'JV' team?

Could the Obama administration have fought harder to retain a U.S. troop presence in Iraq? Possibly.

Would the Iraqi government have allowed such a presence? Not likely as the Iraq government was by the time of the U.S. withdrawal more aligned with Iran than with the United States.

Obama was also slow to recognize the threat posed by ISIS, famously referring to the Islamist terrorist group gaining ground in Syria and Iraq as a "JV" team in a January 2014 interview.

Since the summer of 2014 the Obama administration has mounted -- at least from the air -- an aggressive campaign against ISIS, but it has proven reluctant to do much on the ground.

Could more be done? Yes. More U.S. Special Forces fighting side by side with Iraqi forces and more U.S. forward air controllers calling in close air support would certainly help the Iraqi military against ISIS.

In Syria, a no-fly zone targeted at Assad's air force and safe zones for refugees fleeing the fighting would help tamp down the death toll that plays into the hands of ISIS and other Sunni militants who can position themselves as the only groups that are really defending the Sunni population.

Rather than making loose and unsubstantiated claims that Obama and Clinton created ISIS, it would behoove Trump if he advanced some real policy ideas about how to solve the Syrian and Iraqi civil wars. Of course, to do that he would have to get beyond the inflammatory slogans and sound bites that have characterized his campaign.

[Eugene Wrayburn]

I think you are looking at this in altogether too sophisticated a way. trump is simply trying to link Obama to being a muslim terrorist

[cashead]

Or a muslin. It's hard to tell with that crowd.

[Which Tyler]

I don't think "that crowd" can tell the difference. Or, for that matter, acknowledge that there might be a difference TO spot.

[WaspInWales]

Have Obama and Osama ever been seen in the same room at the same time?

[rowan]

Regardless, many biased political commentators of the mainstream media deliberately try to muddle the reality in order to link the emergence of Islamic State to the ill-conceived invasion of Iraq in 2003 by the Bush Administration. Their motive behind this chicanery is to absolve the Obama Administration’s policy of supporting the Syrian opposition against the Assad regime since the beginning of the Syrian civil war until June 2014 when Islamic State overran Mosul and Obama Administration made a volte-face on its previous policy of indiscriminate support to the Syrian opposition and declared a war against a faction of Syrian opposition: that is, the Islamic State.

Moreover, such spin-doctors also try to find the roots of Islamic State in al-Qaeda in Iraq; however, the insurgency in Iraq died down after the “surge” of American troops in 2007. Al-Qaeda in Iraq became a defunct organization after the death of Abu Musab al Zarqawi and the subsequent surge of troops in Iraq. The re-eruption of insurgency in Iraq has been the spillover effect of nurturing militants in Syria against the Assad regime when Islamic State overran Fallujah and parts of Ramadi in January 2014 and subsequently captured Mosul in June 2014.

The borders between Syria and Iraq are highly porous and it’s impossible to contain the flow of militants and arms between the two countries. The Obama Administration’s policy of providing money, arms and training to the Syrian militants in the training camps located at the border regions of Turkey and Jordan was bound to backfire sooner or later.

Notwithstanding, in order to simplify the Syrian quagmire for the sake of readers, I would divide it into three separate and distinct zones of influence. Firstly, the northern and northwestern zone along the Syria-Turkey border, in and around Aleppo and Idlib, which is under the influence of Turkey and Qatar. Both of these countries share the ideology of Muslim Brotherhood and they provide money, training and arms to the Sunni Arab jihadist organizations like al-Tawhid Brigade and Ahrar al-Sham in the training camps located at the border regions of Turkey.


http://www.counterpunch.org/2016/08/12/ ... mic-state/

[cashead]

Accuses others of bias, is biased as fuck.

[canta_brian]

How did this thread become another Rowan rant about Obama?

[cashead]

How did this thread become another Rowan rant about Obama?

At least he doesn't throw around insults when someone disagrees with him.

[cashead]

I don't think "that crowd" can tell the difference. Or, for that matter, acknowledge that there might be a difference TO spot.

Either way, trying to appeal to said crowd basically has everyone else recoiling in disgust, and a projected loss (including landslide losses in some swing states). Of course, once that happens, we'll see the usual bullshit from them - it was a conspiracy, it was the GOP what hobbled Saint Trump, etc with no reflection on defeat.

Trump is trying to campaign like it was still the primaries and it's fucking him up.

[rowan]

How did this thread become another Rowan rant about Obama?

I thought we were discussing Trump's comments on Obama at some point on here. To be honest, it would be easier if we just combined all the threads on the American elections because sometimes it gets a bit confusing for us simple folk...

[cashead]

Paul Manafort, who is heading Trump's flagging campaign, has just been implicated in the Ukraine, where their National Anti-Corruption Bureau claims to have found secret, handwritten ledgers by Yanukovych amounting to around US$13 million (rounded up) during his time working with the Party of Regions.

It's particularly damaging at a time when the campaign is already seen as being in meltdown mode, not even a month after the Republican National Convention, where Trump formally accepted the nomination.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/15/us/po ... trump.html