Wales vs Italy

[Sandydragon]

Is Gatland safe?

He shouldn’t be.

[Ross. S]

Is Gatland the issue though? Sure he got things wrong, he always has but looking at the wider picture Wales is in trouble. Our regions are shit and our U20's are struggling, we've got players leaving all over the place, players defecting or retiring. We had years of success with money flowing like water and what has the WRU done with it? France and Ireland invested their money, we bought a hotel, look at the difference in our teams at all levels. Wales are in a hole and its going to take years to dig out of

[Son of Mathonwy]

Dyer, Grady, Tomos Williams, wainwright, Reffell, Jenkins, Rowlands.Winnett. Dee.

Build the team around them.

Sheedy to return with Costelow or Lloyd on the bench.

Martin looks like he has some promise.

Unfortunately there are no props in that list!

Of course we do have Morgan and Lake and Faletau (maybe) to come back.

Not really convinced about Winnett. It's like he's not fast enough to make up for his size. Not the best day to judge him on though.

Costelow needs to learn to find touch before he returns. That was dire.

Adams needs to return to form for Cardiff or never come back to Wales.

[Son of Mathonwy]

Is Gatland the issue though? Sure he got things wrong, he always has but looking at the wider picture Wales is in trouble. Our regions are shit and our U20's are struggling, we've got players leaving all over the place, players defecting or retiring. We had years of success with money flowing like water and what has the WRU done with it? France and Ireland invested their money, we bought a hotel, look at the difference in our teams at all levels. Wales are in a hole and its going to take years to dig out of

This is Gatland without Edwards, and without much sign of having developed his coaching skills.

Don't know about money flowing like water, but it hasn't been spent well and there's a lot less to go around now. It doesn't look like there was ever a long term plan for the WRU other than to keep the directors' gravy train on track. The regions took years to get anywhere near being professionally run (assuming they're even there now). There's no sign even now that anyone is willing to work together for the common good.

[Sandydragon]

Is Gatland the issue though? Sure he got things wrong, he always has but looking at the wider picture Wales is in trouble. Our regions are shit and our U20's are struggling, we've got players leaving all over the place, players defecting or retiring. We had years of success with money flowing like water and what has the WRU done with it? France and Ireland invested their money, we bought a hotel, look at the difference in our teams at all levels. Wales are in a hole and its going to take years to dig out of

No, it’s not just his fault. But that team today looked under coached and that is his fault. What is our game plan? Send one up runners into a defence and hope they get a half break? It worked with Jamie Robert’s but it ain’t working now. And some of the selections have been poor.

Adam’s?
No chance for Grady?
Tompkins has been a rabbit in the headlights at times.
Should we have had both rookie fly halves and no one with any experience?

Today Costelow had a shocker. Threee missed kicks to touch and that awful cross field kick. Plus some laboured passing at times. He should have been replaced earlier. Why didn’t he start Rowlands and give us some go forward ball earlier?

There is no quick answer here. But we need t9 get a game plan.

[Sandydragon]

Is Gatland the issue though? Sure he got things wrong, he always has but looking at the wider picture Wales is in trouble. Our regions are shit and our U20's are struggling, we've got players leaving all over the place, players defecting or retiring. We had years of success with money flowing like water and what has the WRU done with it? France and Ireland invested their money, we bought a hotel, look at the difference in our teams at all levels. Wales are in a hole and its going to take years to dig out of

This is Gatland without Edwards, and without much sign of having developed his coaching skills.

Don't know about money flowing like water, but it hasn't been spent well and there's a lot less to go around now. It doesn't look like there was ever a long term plan for the WRU other than to keep the directors' gravy train on track. The regions took years to get anywhere near being professionally run (assuming they're even there now). There's no sign even now that anyone is willing to work together for the common good.

We also have a generation of players who are getting used to not winning. We may be better off if our best players do play outside Wales. The regions just can’t cut it.

[Which Tyler]

Lesson #1, in "how to receive a red card, without playing"

[Sandydragon]

I have to agree. Jenkins should not be talking to the ref. It’s as bad as the South African water carrier entering the field of play and shouting instructions.

[Son of Mathonwy]

Stats:

WALES Tackles, Missed Tackles, Passes, Runs, Metres Run
C WinnettFB 1 1 8 16 27
J AdamsW 3 1 1 8 34
G NorthC 3 1 4 12 47
N TompkinsC 2 0 9 7 14
R DyerW 2 5 4 10 56
S CostelowFH 9 1 34 4 7
T WilliamsSH 3 0 91 7 65
G ThomasP 7 1 6 13 10
E DeeH 11 0 6 11 6
D LewisP 10 1 4 6 6
D JenkinsL 11 1 3 8 11
A BeardL 4 0 10 5 5
A MannFL 13 1 5 9 10
T ReffellFL 15 1 4 8 8
A WainwrightN8 3 1 12 8 8
E LloydR 0 0 2 4 8
K MathiasR 1 0 0 1 1
H O'ConnorR 0 0 0 1 1
W RowlandsR 5 0 2 7 12
M MartinR 3 1 0 3 3
K HardyR 1 0 28 2 1
I LloydR 0 0 1 4 9
M GradyR 1 0 4 11 89

Dyer missed 5 tackles. Beard seemed a bit absent with 4 tackles, also Wainwright with 3 tackles.

Overall stats look okay. We were unable to turn our possession and territorial advantage into points.

https://www.espn.co.uk/rugby/matchstats ... gue=180659

[Which Tyler]

I have to agree. Jenkins should not be talking to the ref. It’s as bad as the South African water carrier entering the field of play and shouting instructions.

Worse, I'd say.
At least the saffer water carrier isn't mouthing off to the ref in a way that would get a player marches back 10 or potentially carded.
Especially going back for another after he first warning, and sounding like he'd been had a go earlier in the match as well.

[Sandydragon]

Stats:

WALES Tackles, Missed Tackles, Passes, Runs, Metres Run
C WinnettFB 1 1 8 16 27
J AdamsW 3 1 1 8 34
G NorthC 3 1 4 12 47
N TompkinsC 2 0 9 7 14
R DyerW 2 5 4 10 56
S CostelowFH 9 1 34 4 7
T WilliamsSH 3 0 91 7 65
G ThomasP 7 1 6 13 10
E DeeH 11 0 6 11 6
D LewisP 10 1 4 6 6
D JenkinsL 11 1 3 8 11
A BeardL 4 0 10 5 5
A MannFL 13 1 5 9 10
T ReffellFL 15 1 4 8 8
A WainwrightN8 3 1 12 8 8
E LloydR 0 0 2 4 8
K MathiasR 1 0 0 1 1
H O'ConnorR 0 0 0 1 1
W RowlandsR 5 0 2 7 12
M MartinR 3 1 0 3 3
K HardyR 1 0 28 2 1
I LloydR 0 0 1 4 9
M GradyR 1 0 4 11 89

Dyer missed 5 tackles. Beard seemed a bit absent with 4 tackles, also Wainwright with 3 tackles.

Overall stats look okay. We were unable to turn our possession and territorial advantage into points.

https://www.espn.co.uk/rugby/matchstats ... gue=180659

Yeah technically Dyer missed a couple, but they are often restart tackles when he gets a hand on a forward but can’t complete the tackle. Did the same in open play and at least slowed down the attacker.

[Mr Mwenda]

I have to agree. Jenkins should not be talking to the ref. It’s as bad as the South African water carrier entering the field of play and shouting instructions.

Worse, I'd say.
At least the saffer water carrier isn't mouthing off to the ref in a way that would get a player marches back 10 or potentially carded.
Especially going back for another after he first warning, and sounding like he'd been had a go earlier in the match as well.

Yes, sounds like a desperate management.

[Son of Mathonwy]

I'd like the WRU to explain why they got rid of Pivac but are not getting rid of Gatland despite even worse results.

[Which Tyler]

Can they afford to?

[Sandydragon]

There’s a rumour on the WoL comments that Gatland offered to resign post game, but the CEO refused to accept it.

[Son of Mathonwy]

There’s a rumour on the WoL comments that Gatland offered to resign post game, but the CEO refused to accept it.

It's like he's their daddy. They are scared without him.

[Son of Mathonwy]

Is Gatland the issue though? Sure he got things wrong, he always has but looking at the wider picture Wales is in trouble. Our regions are shit and our U20's are struggling, we've got players leaving all over the place, players defecting or retiring. We had years of success with money flowing like water and what has the WRU done with it? France and Ireland invested their money, we bought a hotel, look at the difference in our teams at all levels. Wales are in a hole and its going to take years to dig out of

This is Gatland without Edwards, and without much sign of having developed his coaching skills.

Don't know about money flowing like water, but it hasn't been spent well and there's a lot less to go around now. It doesn't look like there was ever a long term plan for the WRU other than to keep the directors' gravy train on track. The regions took years to get anywhere near being professionally run (assuming they're even there now). There's no sign even now that anyone is willing to work together for the common good.

We also have a generation of players who are getting used to not winning. We may be better off if our best players do play outside Wales. The regions just can’t cut it.

Who knows how big a factor this is but it doesn't help. The previous generation knew they could beat Ireland, the could remember doing it. And Italy, they couldn't remember losing to. This lot know that Leinster can't be beaten and even Benetton are generally better than them. It can't help.

Obviously this doesn't apply to players like Jenkins, Lewis, Tompkins. More players with 25 caps will leave in the next couple of years so we're going in that direction anyway.

What was that question for Gatland in the post match interview? Wouldn't you like to be able to pick Hawkins? What difference would Hawkins have made to that shit-show? If he was as big as Grady she might have had a point.

On that note, maybe Gatland needs to seriously bulk the team up, get guys like Llewellyn, Nagy, Beetham in there with priority (especially now we've lost North).

[Sandydragon]

Some of our players definitely need to bulk up, but we also need to find another way to get over the advantage line when you don’t have huge ball carriers. And the basic skills are dreadful. The effort has been there but frankly most other things are pap.

[Numbers]

This is Gatland without Edwards, and without much sign of having developed his coaching skills.

Don't know about money flowing like water, but it hasn't been spent well and there's a lot less to go around now. It doesn't look like there was ever a long term plan for the WRU other than to keep the directors' gravy train on track. The regions took years to get anywhere near being professionally run (assuming they're even there now). There's no sign even now that anyone is willing to work together for the common good.

We also have a generation of players who are getting used to not winning. We may be better off if our best players do play outside Wales. The regions just can’t cut it.

Who knows how big a factor this is but it doesn't help. The previous generation knew they could beat Ireland, the could remember doing it. And Italy, they couldn't remember losing to. This lot know that Leinster can't be beaten and even Benetton are generally better than them. It can't help.

Obviously this doesn't apply to players like Jenkins, Lewis, Tompkins. More players with 25 caps will leave in the next couple of years so we're going in that direction anyway.

What was that question for Gatland in the post match interview? Wouldn't you like to be able to pick Hawkins? What difference would Hawkins have made to that shit-show? If he was as big as Grady she might have had a point.

On that note, maybe Gatland needs to seriously bulk the team up, get guys like Llewellyn, Nagy, Beetham in there with priority (especially now we've lost North).

It's not the backs that need beefing up, hopefully we'll get a few players back soon. I cansee a reversion to classic Gatball with Grady becoming our new 12.... it would get us some gainline I suppose.

[Sandydragon]

At least that would be some sort of game plan.

[Graigwen]

A very poor game from Costelow. Apart from missing touch with three penalties, he exerted no tactical control. His passing was pretty poor as well, putting people into trouble not into space.....and as for that cross field kick.... He has talent I think, but is not developing.

Beard did not feature much apart from winning one line out. Not only does Rowlands offer more in the line out, he adds solidity to the scrum.

Tompkins can't catch the ball. His selection was always justified by intangible results, maybe this is the end of the road for him.

At least Grady showed some sign of his potential. Grady and Rowlands carried the ball aggressively but were not on the pitch for most of the game.

Considering Winnett is young, inexperienced, and not huge, we don't give him much protection.

I agree that the final score flattered us. I suppose this 6N has served a purpose in exposing and testing young players. We were never going to do well considering the number of retirements and long term injuries. This 6N has to be a one off, concentrating all the misery into one tournament. Roll on those nice easy tour fixtures.....

.

[Son of Mathonwy]

A very poor game from Costelow. Apart from missing touch with three penalties, he exerted no tactical control. His passing was pretty poor as well, putting people into trouble not into space.....and as for that cross field kick.... He has talent I think, but is not developing.

Beard did not feature much apart from winning one line out. Not only does Rowlands offer more in the line out, he adds solidity to the scrum.

Tompkins can't catch the ball. His selection was always justified by intangible results, maybe this is the end of the road for him.

At least Grady showed some sign of his potential. Grady and Rowlands carried the ball aggressively but were not on the pitch for most of the game.

Considering Winnett is young, inexperienced, and not huge, we don't give him much protection.

I agree that the final score flattered us. I suppose this 6N has served a purpose in exposing and testing young players. We were never going to do well considering the number of retirements and long term injuries. This 6N has to be a one off, concentrating all the misery into one tournament. Roll on those nice easy tour fixtures.....

.

Yeah, that's the bad stuff out of the way, it'll be great from now on!

I appreciate that Gatland was dealt a pretty tough hand this 6N with retirements AND some other key individuals missing (Morgan, Lake, Faletau, LRZ), so a great result was unlikely. But he has not played this hand well. Some very strange selections. And today, after weeks together we looked clueless for 65 minutes, our worst performance. There should have been some progress, not regression. What the coaching has been like we can only guess at but it has been pretty ineffective. And given last years 6N was almost as bad and the world cup fairly mediocre, I don't feel confident for the future under Gatland and his assistants (particularly the attack and defence coaches).

A lack of good ball carriers and dominant tacklers amongst the forwards is the main problem amongst the players. The backs would look a lot better with some go-forward. We need to get Martin involved more, get a big 6 like Rhys Davies back. Costelow was very poor today and has not been great in general. I think Lloyd has been better (he was generally on the pitch in our better spells during the tournament) but he is very raw. We need Sheedy back. North is gone so Grady needs to take his place in the centres. Who with? No great answer (and I'd say the same even if Hawkins was available). Adams is no good at the moment. If we're lucky Regan Grace can come in there. Winnett has been good but I'd prefer a more substantial & taller FB like Nagy or Beetham.

[Son of Mathonwy]

We also have a generation of players who are getting used to not winning. We may be better off if our best players do play outside Wales. The regions just can’t cut it.

Who knows how big a factor this is but it doesn't help. The previous generation knew they could beat Ireland, the could remember doing it. And Italy, they couldn't remember losing to. This lot know that Leinster can't be beaten and even Benetton are generally better than them. It can't help.

Obviously this doesn't apply to players like Jenkins, Lewis, Tompkins. More players with 25 caps will leave in the next couple of years so we're going in that direction anyway.

What was that question for Gatland in the post match interview? Wouldn't you like to be able to pick Hawkins? What difference would Hawkins have made to that shit-show? If he was as big as Grady she might have had a point.

On that note, maybe Gatland needs to seriously bulk the team up, get guys like Llewellyn, Nagy, Beetham in there with priority (especially now we've lost North).

It's not the backs that need beefing up, hopefully we'll get a few players back soon. I cansee a reversion to classic Gatball with Grady becoming our new 12.... it would get us some gainline I suppose.

Grady is the new North (or he has to be). I just wish we could have seen more of him over the last few weeks. It would have helped, it might even have won one of those close matches.

[Graigwen]

Yeah, that's the bad stuff out of the way, it'll be great from now on!

I appreciate that Gatland was dealt a pretty tough hand this 6N with retirements AND some other key individuals missing (Morgan, Lake, Faletau, LRZ), so a great result was unlikely. But he has not played this hand well. Some very strange selections. And today, after weeks together we looked clueless for 65 minutes, our worst performance. There should have been some progress, not regression. What the coaching has been like we can only guess at but it has been pretty ineffective. And given last years 6N was almost as bad and the world cup fairly mediocre, I don't feel confident for the future under Gatland and his assistants (particularly the attack and defence coaches).

A lack of good ball carriers and dominant tacklers amongst the forwards is the main problem amongst the players. The backs would look a lot better with some go-forward. We need to get Martin involved more, get a big 6 like Rhys Davies back. Costelow was very poor today and has not been great in general. I think Lloyd has been better (he was generally on the pitch in our better spells during the tournament) but he is very raw. We need Sheedy back. North is gone so Grady needs to take his place in the centres. Who with? No great answer (and I'd say the same even if Hawkins was available). Adams is no good at the moment. If we're lucky Regan Grace can come in there. Winnett has been good but I'd prefer a more substantial & taller FB like Nagy or Beetham.

I have a feeling that Gatland made some longer term decisions at the start of the 6N when he saw how bare the cupboard was. Some of the "strange selections" were just trying things out in case they worked out. (Some did, many did not.) Maybe he thought giving Costelow a run of games would help his development - it does not seem to have helped.

I am not convinced Sheedy is the answer, although I suppose he should be somewhere in the mix. How is his goal kicking these days, it used to look a bit flaky?

I am not convinced Nagy is international standard, apart from not being Welsh. I don't have a firm opinion on Beetham yet, although he seems promising.

I agree about Martin and Rhys Davies.
.


I certainly would like to see Regan Grace given a go, he has scored some fantastic tries in League.

[Son of Mathonwy]

Yeah, that's the bad stuff out of the way, it'll be great from now on!

I appreciate that Gatland was dealt a pretty tough hand this 6N with retirements AND some other key individuals missing (Morgan, Lake, Faletau, LRZ), so a great result was unlikely. But he has not played this hand well. Some very strange selections. And today, after weeks together we looked clueless for 65 minutes, our worst performance. There should have been some progress, not regression. What the coaching has been like we can only guess at but it has been pretty ineffective. And given last years 6N was almost as bad and the world cup fairly mediocre, I don't feel confident for the future under Gatland and his assistants (particularly the attack and defence coaches).

A lack of good ball carriers and dominant tacklers amongst the forwards is the main problem amongst the players. The backs would look a lot better with some go-forward. We need to get Martin involved more, get a big 6 like Rhys Davies back. Costelow was very poor today and has not been great in general. I think Lloyd has been better (he was generally on the pitch in our better spells during the tournament) but he is very raw. We need Sheedy back. North is gone so Grady needs to take his place in the centres. Who with? No great answer (and I'd say the same even if Hawkins was available). Adams is no good at the moment. If we're lucky Regan Grace can come in there. Winnett has been good but I'd prefer a more substantial & taller FB like Nagy or Beetham.

I have a feeling that Gatland made some longer term decisions at the start of the 6N when he saw how bare the cupboard was. Some of the "strange selections" were just trying things out in case they worked out. (Some did, many did not.) Maybe he thought giving Costelow a run of games would help his development - it does not seem to have helped.

I am not convinced Sheedy is the answer, although I suppose he should be somewhere in the mix. How is his goal kicking these days, it used to look a bit flaky?

I am not convinced Nagy is international standard, apart from not being Welsh. I don't have a firm opinion on Beetham yet, although he seems promising.

I agree about Martin and Rhys Davies.
.


I certainly would like to see Regan Grace given a go, he has scored some fantastic tries in League.

Yeah, I think we mostly agree here.

I'm not saying all his experimental selections were 'strange', of course he had to try out inexperienced players etc. It's that a few of them were quite odd (and bad) ie dropping North for the match where we needed the most bulk, starting Adams for all matches despite his total lack of form, giving Grady no starts, and the back-up front row in the Italy match which even Gatland didn't have the confidence to play till the last 10 minutes.

Sheedy is currently our only experienced international fly half young enough to make the next world cup. His all round game is good and although his goal-kicking isn't absolutely top-notch, it's pretty competent now. His kicking from hand has been excellent this season.

Yeah, I'm not sure about Nagy or Beetham, maybe Winnett is better than both, but I'd like to see them given a shot.