Son of Mathonwy wrote: ↑Thu Jun 20, 2024 3:13 pm
I've read (or skimmed) the main manifestos, just for completeness.
Tories - if you want more of the same, plus national service, this is it.
Labour - not really very left-wing. Not really that different to the Tories, except they make nicer noises on climate change and immigration. But in the end they only plan to spend about 10BN more than the Tories (mostly funded from minor changes to tax), which is less than 1% of government spending (approx £1.2TN). So it can't possibly make much difference.
LibDems - very similar to Labour, perhaps more left-wing if anything. They barely mention the EU (although more than Labour). No fiscal plan given but like Labour, unlikely to really change much.
Green - the real left-wing party. They actually have plans to spend significantly more on health, Education, Green economy, and tax the wealthy more. They'd also limit media ownership.
Reform UK - I agree with them about PR. Not much else.
Under PR I'd vote Green. In this bullshit system the best we can hope for is to get the Tories out. Actually that's not completely true. Best case, there's a small but realistic chance of pushing the Tories down to third place behind the LibDems. That would be spectacular, and good for the country. And fucking hilarious. So if the LibDems have a decent chance in a seat I'd say vote for them. Labour are so far ahead that they can afford to lose 20 seats to the Libdems for this noble goal.
For me (safe Labour seat) I'm free to vote however I like (my vote will make no difference to the outcome). So it's Green for me.
Can't disagree with that as a summary. I get some rugby news from the Telegraph (using a thing to allow me to bypass the paywall - I'm not funding the abominable shitrag that that paper's become) and occasionally I get clickbaited into reading an article from the news section. Usually all I gain from it is chagrin because the article's even worse than the headline would lead you to believe, but I was tickled pink today to see one in favour of PR and pointing out how awful and undemocratic it was that Reform and Tories were going to get a combined total of votes similar to Labour (according to their polls), but be in danger of getting less seats combined than the Lib Dems. It walked a beautifully hilarious line of "It was fine for us to tell the Lib Dems to fuck off when we were benefitting, but now things have changed and FPtP is no longer fit for purpose".
Amusingly, my constituency has gone from a safe Conservative seat to a safe Labour seat in the space of one election, so my vote will, once again, matter not even a little bit. Green for me as well.
Puja
I read the first paragraph before it disappeared behind the paywall. You have to laugh. But it would more than than one election's-worth of vigorous petard-hoisting for the Tories to turn to PR. Nice to see such naked hypocrisy from the Telegraph, though. Again.
Son of Mathonwy wrote: ↑Thu Jun 20, 2024 3:13 pm
I've read (or skimmed) the main manifestos, just for completeness.
Tories - if you want more of the same, plus national service, this is it.
Labour - not really very left-wing. Not really that different to the Tories, except they make nicer noises on climate change and immigration. But in the end they only plan to spend about 10BN more than the Tories (mostly funded from minor changes to tax), which is less than 1% of government spending (approx £1.2TN). So it can't possibly make much difference.
LibDems - very similar to Labour, perhaps more left-wing if anything. They barely mention the EU (although more than Labour). No fiscal plan given but like Labour, unlikely to really change much.
Green - the real left-wing party. They actually have plans to spend significantly more on health, Education, Green economy, and tax the wealthy more. They'd also limit media ownership.
Reform UK - I agree with them about PR. Not much else.
Under PR I'd vote Green. In this bullshit system the best we can hope for is to get the Tories out. Actually that's not completely true. Best case, there's a small but realistic chance of pushing the Tories down to third place behind the LibDems. That would be spectacular, and good for the country. And fucking hilarious. So if the LibDems have a decent chance in a seat I'd say vote for them. Labour are so far ahead that they can afford to lose 20 seats to the Libdems for this noble goal.
Son of Mathonwy wrote: ↑Thu Jun 20, 2024 3:13 pm
I've read (or skimmed) the main manifestos, just for completeness.
Tories - if you want more of the same, plus national service, this is it.
Labour - not really very left-wing. Not really that different to the Tories, except they make nicer noises on climate change and immigration. But in the end they only plan to spend about 10BN more than the Tories (mostly funded from minor changes to tax), which is less than 1% of government spending (approx £1.2TN). So it can't possibly make much difference.
LibDems - very similar to Labour, perhaps more left-wing if anything. They barely mention the EU (although more than Labour). No fiscal plan given but like Labour, unlikely to really change much.
Green - the real left-wing party. They actually have plans to spend significantly more on health, Education, Green economy, and tax the wealthy more. They'd also limit media ownership.
Reform UK - I agree with them about PR. Not much else.
Under PR I'd vote Green. In this bullshit system the best we can hope for is to get the Tories out. Actually that's not completely true. Best case, there's a small but realistic chance of pushing the Tories down to third place behind the LibDems. That would be spectacular, and good for the country. And fucking hilarious. So if the LibDems have a decent chance in a seat I'd say vote for them. Labour are so far ahead that they can afford to lose 20 seats to the Libdems for this noble goal.
For me (safe Labour seat) I'm free to vote however I like (my vote will make no difference to the outcome). So it's Green for me.
Under PR, I'd vote Green
As it is, LibDems have a realistic chance of ousting our particularly useless (and particularly safe) Tory MP, so my vote got posted this morning on the way into work.
Today's poll by Britain Elects put LD ahead of Con for the first time, but the polls have been moving that way over the last 2 weeks, as LD are actively targetting this seat, and are the only party doing so.
Note for postal voters - when I got the confirmation form that I was registered for a postal vote, it said that I couldn't vote in person if I wished - which is the first time that's been in there.
Son of Mathonwy wrote: ↑Thu Jun 20, 2024 3:13 pm
I've read (or skimmed) the main manifestos, just for completeness.
Tories - if you want more of the same, plus national service, this is it.
Labour - not really very left-wing. Not really that different to the Tories, except they make nicer noises on climate change and immigration. But in the end they only plan to spend about 10BN more than the Tories (mostly funded from minor changes to tax), which is less than 1% of government spending (approx £1.2TN). So it can't possibly make much difference.
LibDems - very similar to Labour, perhaps more left-wing if anything. They barely mention the EU (although more than Labour). No fiscal plan given but like Labour, unlikely to really change much.
Green - the real left-wing party. They actually have plans to spend significantly more on health, Education, Green economy, and tax the wealthy more. They'd also limit media ownership.
Reform UK - I agree with them about PR. Not much else.
Under PR I'd vote Green. In this bullshit system the best we can hope for is to get the Tories out. Actually that's not completely true. Best case, there's a small but realistic chance of pushing the Tories down to third place behind the LibDems. That would be spectacular, and good for the country. And fucking hilarious. So if the LibDems have a decent chance in a seat I'd say vote for them. Labour are so far ahead that they can afford to lose 20 seats to the Libdems for this noble goal.
For me (safe Labour seat) I'm free to vote however I like (my vote will make no difference to the outcome). So it's Green for me.
The greens refuse to increase defence spending, despite the worsening global situation. Student union politics.
On the flip side, the Tories and Labour refuse to meaningfully increase spending on the climate crisis, despite the worsening global situation. There's a limited amount of money to go around and every party is making a decision on which of the impending disasters they think is least likely to need funding.
Exactly what I was thinking. If only we'd listened to those crazy kids (and oil company geologists and organic chemists) back in the '70s we'd be sitting prettier now. But hey, fuck it, put it off for another few decades.
Son of Mathonwy wrote: ↑Thu Jun 20, 2024 3:13 pm
I've read (or skimmed) the main manifestos, just for completeness.
Tories - if you want more of the same, plus national service, this is it.
Labour - not really very left-wing. Not really that different to the Tories, except they make nicer noises on climate change and immigration. But in the end they only plan to spend about 10BN more than the Tories (mostly funded from minor changes to tax), which is less than 1% of government spending (approx £1.2TN). So it can't possibly make much difference.
LibDems - very similar to Labour, perhaps more left-wing if anything. They barely mention the EU (although more than Labour). No fiscal plan given but like Labour, unlikely to really change much.
Green - the real left-wing party. They actually have plans to spend significantly more on health, Education, Green economy, and tax the wealthy more. They'd also limit media ownership.
Reform UK - I agree with them about PR. Not much else.
Under PR I'd vote Green. In this bullshit system the best we can hope for is to get the Tories out. Actually that's not completely true. Best case, there's a small but realistic chance of pushing the Tories down to third place behind the LibDems. That would be spectacular, and good for the country. And fucking hilarious. So if the LibDems have a decent chance in a seat I'd say vote for them. Labour are so far ahead that they can afford to lose 20 seats to the Libdems for this noble goal.
For me (safe Labour seat) I'm free to vote however I like (my vote will make no difference to the outcome). So it's Green for me.
The greens refuse to increase defence spending, despite the worsening global situation. Student union politics.
On the flip side, the Tories and Labour refuse to meaningfully increase spending on the climate crisis, despite the worsening global situation. There's a limited amount of money to go around and every party is making a decision on which of the impending disasters they think is least likely to need funding.
Puja
Given the Greens’ sums and the fact they won’t have to enact their manifesto they can ‘fund’ what they like…
Son of Mathonwy wrote: ↑Thu Jun 20, 2024 3:13 pm
I've read (or skimmed) the main manifestos, just for completeness.
Tories - if you want more of the same, plus national service, this is it.
Labour - not really very left-wing. Not really that different to the Tories, except they make nicer noises on climate change and immigration. But in the end they only plan to spend about 10BN more than the Tories (mostly funded from minor changes to tax), which is less than 1% of government spending (approx £1.2TN). So it can't possibly make much difference.
LibDems - very similar to Labour, perhaps more left-wing if anything. They barely mention the EU (although more than Labour). No fiscal plan given but like Labour, unlikely to really change much.
Green - the real left-wing party. They actually have plans to spend significantly more on health, Education, Green economy, and tax the wealthy more. They'd also limit media ownership.
Reform UK - I agree with them about PR. Not much else.
Under PR I'd vote Green. In this bullshit system the best we can hope for is to get the Tories out. Actually that's not completely true. Best case, there's a small but realistic chance of pushing the Tories down to third place behind the LibDems. That would be spectacular, and good for the country. And fucking hilarious. So if the LibDems have a decent chance in a seat I'd say vote for them. Labour are so far ahead that they can afford to lose 20 seats to the Libdems for this noble goal.
For me (safe Labour seat) I'm free to vote however I like (my vote will make no difference to the outcome). So it's Green for me.
The greens refuse to increase defence spending, despite the worsening global situation. Student union politics.
On the flip side, the Tories and Labour refuse to meaningfully increase spending on the climate crisis, despite the worsening global situation. There's a limited amount of money to go around and every party is making a decision on which of the impending disasters they think is least likely to need funding.
Puja
I don’t see Putin giving a shit about environmentalism. Listening to a Green Party rep comparing the threat from Russia etc to knife crime, it’s clear that this isn’t a grown up political party.
The greens refuse to increase defence spending, despite the worsening global situation. Student union politics.
On the flip side, the Tories and Labour refuse to meaningfully increase spending on the climate crisis, despite the worsening global situation. There's a limited amount of money to go around and every party is making a decision on which of the impending disasters they think is least likely to need funding.
Puja
Given the Greens’ sums and the fact they won’t have to enact their manifesto they can ‘fund’ what they like…
Fair point, although they do at least pretend to reality. They are the only party properly acknowledging that "wishing really hard for growth" isn't an economic strategy and that somebody is going to have to pay for things through taxes.
The greens refuse to increase defence spending, despite the worsening global situation. Student union politics.
On the flip side, the Tories and Labour refuse to meaningfully increase spending on the climate crisis, despite the worsening global situation. There's a limited amount of money to go around and every party is making a decision on which of the impending disasters they think is least likely to need funding.
Puja
I don’t see Putin giving a shit about environmentalism. Listening to a Green Party rep comparing the threat from Russia etc to knife crime, it’s clear that this isn’t a grown up political party.
I don't see rising sea levels and increased devastating weather events giving a shit about Putin either. Well, except in that they'll exacerbate global insecurity by causing food insecurity and mass emigration from stricken areas.
Son of Mathonwy wrote: ↑Thu Jun 20, 2024 3:13 pm
I've read (or skimmed) the main manifestos, just for completeness.
Tories - if you want more of the same, plus national service, this is it.
Labour - not really very left-wing. Not really that different to the Tories, except they make nicer noises on climate change and immigration. But in the end they only plan to spend about 10BN more than the Tories (mostly funded from minor changes to tax), which is less than 1% of government spending (approx £1.2TN). So it can't possibly make much difference.
LibDems - very similar to Labour, perhaps more left-wing if anything. They barely mention the EU (although more than Labour). No fiscal plan given but like Labour, unlikely to really change much.
Green - the real left-wing party. They actually have plans to spend significantly more on health, Education, Green economy, and tax the wealthy more. They'd also limit media ownership.
Reform UK - I agree with them about PR. Not much else.
Under PR I'd vote Green. In this bullshit system the best we can hope for is to get the Tories out. Actually that's not completely true. Best case, there's a small but realistic chance of pushing the Tories down to third place behind the LibDems. That would be spectacular, and good for the country. And fucking hilarious. So if the LibDems have a decent chance in a seat I'd say vote for them. Labour are so far ahead that they can afford to lose 20 seats to the Libdems for this noble goal.
For me (safe Labour seat) I'm free to vote however I like (my vote will make no difference to the outcome). So it's Green for me.
The greens refuse to increase defence spending, despite the worsening global situation. Student union politics.
On the flip side, the Tories and Labour refuse to meaningfully increase spending on the climate crisis, despite the worsening global situation. There's a limited amount of money to go around and every party is making a decision on which of the impending disasters they think is least likely to need funding.
Puja
Additionally, Labour seem to be planning to continue with the Tory economic plan, with minor tweaks, relying on magical thinking to conjure up growth. There's no reason to expect more growth following the same plan. But there's every reason to expect worsening inequality. This will likely lead to disappointment with the charmless Labour leadership and perhaps even with the 'left' of politics. Having given Labour a chance and got nothing from it that will leave the country even more willing to elect Farage, who might well be helming the Tory ship by that point.
On the flip side, the Tories and Labour refuse to meaningfully increase spending on the climate crisis, despite the worsening global situation. There's a limited amount of money to go around and every party is making a decision on which of the impending disasters they think is least likely to need funding.
Puja
I don’t see Putin giving a shit about environmentalism. Listening to a Green Party rep comparing the threat from Russia etc to knife crime, it’s clear that this isn’t a grown up political party.
I don't see rising sea levels and increased devastating weather events giving a shit about Putin either. Well, except in that they'll exacerbate global insecurity by causing food insecurity and mass emigration from stricken areas.
Puja
And if we couldn’t defend ourselves then any work on saving the planet would be a waste. Priorities.
The greens refuse to increase defence spending, despite the worsening global situation. Student union politics.
On the flip side, the Tories and Labour refuse to meaningfully increase spending on the climate crisis, despite the worsening global situation. There's a limited amount of money to go around and every party is making a decision on which of the impending disasters they think is least likely to need funding.
Puja
Additionally, Labour seem to be planning to continue with the Tory economic plan, with minor tweaks, relying on magical thinking to conjure up growth. There's no reason to expect more growth following the same plan. But there's every reason to expect worsening inequality. This will likely lead to disappointment with the charmless Labour leadership and perhaps even with the 'left' of politics. Having given Labour a chance and got nothing from it that will leave the country even more willing to elect Farage, who might well be helming the Tory ship by that point.
Labour will put taxes up. I think we all know it will happen. Unless closer collaboration with Europe would help our economy grow (possible).
On the flip side, the Tories and Labour refuse to meaningfully increase spending on the climate crisis, despite the worsening global situation. There's a limited amount of money to go around and every party is making a decision on which of the impending disasters they think is least likely to need funding.
Puja
Additionally, Labour seem to be planning to continue with the Tory economic plan, with minor tweaks, relying on magical thinking to conjure up growth. There's no reason to expect more growth following the same plan. But there's every reason to expect worsening inequality. This will likely lead to disappointment with the charmless Labour leadership and perhaps even with the 'left' of politics. Having given Labour a chance and got nothing from it that will leave the country even more willing to elect Farage, who might well be helming the Tory ship by that point.
Labour will put taxes up. I think we all know it will happen. Unless closer collaboration with Europe would help our economy grow (possible).
Maybe they're lying. Again. Who knows? But they'll have to invest in/spend a lot more on the country to turn things around. It's not like 1997. Unless they rip up the manifesto I don't see it making a difference in the time they've got.
Son of Mathonwy wrote: ↑Thu Jun 20, 2024 8:19 pm
Additionally, Labour seem to be planning to continue with the Tory economic plan, with minor tweaks, relying on magical thinking to conjure up growth. There's no reason to expect more growth following the same plan. But there's every reason to expect worsening inequality. This will likely lead to disappointment with the charmless Labour leadership and perhaps even with the 'left' of politics. Having given Labour a chance and got nothing from it that will leave the country even more willing to elect Farage, who might well be helming the Tory ship by that point.
Labour will put taxes up. I think we all know it will happen. Unless closer collaboration with Europe would help our economy grow (possible).
Maybe they're lying. Again. Who knows? But they'll have to invest in/spend a lot more on the country to turn things around. It's not like 1997. Unless they rip up the manifesto I don't see it making a difference in the time they've got.
They are being coy about taxes. I suspect they will try to grow the economy first by closer alignment with Europe. When that doesn’t work enough then I think some taxes will go up. Or the tax brackets will change, which amounts to much the same thing.
I can't speak as to the quality of your greens, but Green parties around the world are the only thing on the political spectrum that have the motivation to go after the drivers of inequality and destruction of natural resources that are at the heart of why life is shitty for so many. Shit, our Greens will even cost proposed taxes and budget them according to infrastructure that most needs it. Everything else on the political spectrum wants to operate government like a business (Top Tip: It isn't a business) and operate the perpetually failing market-driven approach to the mythical ideal of endless growth.
Sandydragon wrote: ↑Thu Jun 20, 2024 8:15 pm
I don’t see Putin giving a shit about environmentalism. Listening to a Green Party rep comparing the threat from Russia etc to knife crime, it’s clear that this isn’t a grown up political party.
I don't see rising sea levels and increased devastating weather events giving a shit about Putin either. Well, except in that they'll exacerbate global insecurity by causing food insecurity and mass emigration from stricken areas.
Puja
And if we couldn’t defend ourselves then any work on saving the planet would be a waste. Priorities.
Notice that I'm not saying that military security is completely irrelevant or advocating complete disarmament myself, but I'm finding it amusing that "Let's spend money on preventing/mitigating a climate disaster and not on preventing a military disaster" is 'student union politics' and 'not grown up', while "Let's spend money on preventing a military disaster and not on preventing/mitigating a climate disaster" is a grown-up and sensible political perspective. This is especially true given the case that the greatest threat to the continent is currently unable to conquer Ukraine in conventional warfare, so it doesn't feel like we're going to be fending off Russkies at the White Cliffs in the next 5 years.
Personally, I'd be interested in looking to reduce military budgets/get more bang for our buck forming closer military unions with our geographically close allies - is there really a need for separate UK and French nuclear deterrents, aircraft carriers, bombers, etc, when any threat coming at one of us will be directly affecting the other?
morepork wrote: ↑Thu Jun 20, 2024 8:40 pm
I can't speak as to the quality of your greens, but Green parties around the world are the only thing on the political spectrum that have the motivation to go after the drivers of inequality and destruction of natural resources that are at the heart of why life is shitty for so many. Shit, our Greens will even cost proposed taxes and budget them according to infrastructure that most needs it. Everything else on the political spectrum wants to operate government like a business (Top Tip: It isn't a business) and operate the perpetually failing market-driven approach to the mythical ideal of endless growth.
Thank fuck there are Green parties, frankly.
Ours have been a long, long way away from any levers of power for the entirety of their existence (because of our incredibly crappy electoral system) and it does show in terms of their general level of professionalism. However, they're hopefully on course for getting 2-3 MPs this election which, while largely irrelevant in the decision-making process of this country, is a minor miracle given the obstacles they face, and will give them a lot more of a platform to be heard from.
morepork wrote: ↑Thu Jun 20, 2024 8:40 pm
I can't speak as to the quality of your greens, but Green parties around the world are the only thing on the political spectrum that have the motivation to go after the drivers of inequality and destruction of natural resources that are at the heart of why life is shitty for so many. Shit, our Greens will even cost proposed taxes and budget them according to infrastructure that most needs it. Everything else on the political spectrum wants to operate government like a business (Top Tip: It isn't a business) and operate the perpetually failing market-driven approach to the mythical ideal of endless growth.
Thank fuck there are Green parties, frankly.
Ours have been a long, long way away from any levers of power for the entirety of their existence (because of our incredibly crappy electoral system) and it does show in terms of their general level of professionalism. However, they're hopefully on course for getting 2-3 MPs this election which, while largely irrelevant in the decision-making process of this country, is a minor miracle given the obstacles they face, and will give them a lot more of a platform to be heard from.
Puja
Nicely encapsulates the argument for diversity doesn’t it?
Sandydragon wrote: ↑Thu Jun 20, 2024 8:20 pm
And if we couldn’t defend ourselves then any work on saving the planet would be a waste. Priorities.
Wait... saving the planet would be a waste?
Really?
You think an extant world without an independent Britain is WORSE than a world with neither an independent Britain nor "civilized" human life?
Priorities - there is no Planet B.
It’s OK. Elon Musk is getting us Planet B. A nice package of gross inequality, delusion, and deregulation in a convenient tax payer funded real life Bond villain.
Labour will put taxes up. I think we all know it will happen. Unless closer collaboration with Europe would help our economy grow (possible).
Maybe they're lying. Again. Who knows? But they'll have to invest in/spend a lot more on the country to turn things around. It's not like 1997. Unless they rip up the manifesto I don't see it making a difference in the time they've got.
They are being coy about taxes. I suspect they will try to grow the economy first by closer alignment with Europe. When that doesn’t work enough then I think some taxes will go up. Or the tax brackets will change, which amounts to much the same thing.
They've not been very coy about taxes - they've explicitly ruled out increases to income tax, national insurance, corporation tax and VAT. Reeves verbally (for what that's worth) ruled out a wealth tax and bringing capital gains rates in line with income tax.
However, Starmer doesn't feel bound by any promises he makes, so you might be right in what you just said.
But that modest/stealthy tax increase (and spending increase) will be too little and too late to shift the economy in time to give the majority of the public the feeling of prosperity (because it won't have improved equality much if at all - it may only slow the drift to inequality). So without a Falklands War, Starmer might be very unpopular by that point and facing Farage or some shiny new, untarnished Tory, like le Pen's new fascist poster-boy.
I don't see rising sea levels and increased devastating weather events giving a shit about Putin either. Well, except in that they'll exacerbate global insecurity by causing food insecurity and mass emigration from stricken areas.
Puja
And if we couldn’t defend ourselves then any work on saving the planet would be a waste. Priorities.
Notice that I'm not saying that military security is completely irrelevant or advocating complete disarmament myself, but I'm finding it amusing that "Let's spend money on preventing/mitigating a climate disaster and not on preventing a military disaster" is 'student union politics' and 'not grown up', while "Let's spend money on preventing a military disaster and not on preventing/mitigating a climate disaster" is a grown-up and sensible political perspective. This is especially true given the case that the greatest threat to the continent is currently unable to conquer Ukraine in conventional warfare, so it doesn't feel like we're going to be fending off Russkies at the White Cliffs in the next 5 years.
Personally, I'd be interested in looking to reduce military budgets/get more bang for our buck forming closer military unions with our geographically close allies - is there really a need for separate UK and French nuclear deterrents, aircraft carriers, bombers, etc, when any threat coming at one of us will be directly affecting the other?
Puja
This is simply naive and irresponsible. Now more than ever we need a stronger military. We are facing threats to democracy all across the globe, and should be throwing our weight around more, not less.
British values are something we should be spreading. They are on the whole positive values.
You have to laugh. But it would more than than one election's-worth of vigorous petard-hoisting for the Tories to turn to PR. Nice to see such naked hypocrisy from the Telegraph, though. Again.
