New and Improved EPS Watch/Player Form Thread

[Which Tyler]

Well yes but you could say, here’s half your money, go work but not for a tier 1 nation til 2025 say

Is that legal?
I didn't think you could put (legally binding) clauses in contracts for what someone who's not contracted can do.

Gardening leave is one thing, but "you're released from your contract, but still have contractual obligations" seems a very different thing.
As far as I could tell, he was basically doing some video analysis whilst on gardening leave.

[Banquo]

Well yes but you could say, here’s half your money, go work but not for a tier 1 nation til 2025 say

Is that legal?
I didn't think you could put (legally binding) clauses in contracts for what someone who's not contracted can do.

Gardening leave is one thing, but "you're released from your contract, but still have contractual obligations" seems a very different thing.
As far as I could tell, he was basically doing some video analysis whilst on gardening leave.

He’s not on gardening leave if still working. And you can certainly negotiate terms of leaving under a compromise agreement including not going to a competitor- which would likely be in the main contract tbh.
Compromise agreement is the key bit to remember.

[Banquo]

Max Malins has ruptured his achilles. Had heard he was weighing up a renewal from Bristol and a good offer in France. Presumably this injury puts the kibosh on any French move.

Poor lad.

[FKAS]

Well yes but you could say, here’s half your money, go work but not for a tier 1 nation til 2025 say

Is that legal?
I didn't think you could put (legally binding) clauses in contracts for what someone who's not contracted can do.

Gardening leave is one thing, but "you're released from your contract, but still have contractual obligations" seems a very different thing.
As far as I could tell, he was basically doing some video analysis whilst on gardening leave.

He’s not on gardening leave if still working. And you can certainly negotiate terms of leaving under a compromise agreement including not going to a competitor- which would likely be in the main contract tbh.
Compromise agreement is the key bit to remember.

As far as I understand it, non-compete causes that stop staff from joining a direct competitor are nearly impossible to enforce as it's restricting freedom to work. I may be wrong as I'm not a lawyer.

[Banquo]

Is that legal?
I didn't think you could put (legally binding) clauses in contracts for what someone who's not contracted can do.

Gardening leave is one thing, but "you're released from your contract, but still have contractual obligations" seems a very different thing.
As far as I could tell, he was basically doing some video analysis whilst on gardening leave.

He’s not on gardening leave if still working. And you can certainly negotiate terms of leaving under a compromise agreement including not going to a competitor- which would likely be in the main contract tbh.
Compromise agreement is the key bit to remember.

As far as I understand it, non-compete causes that stop staff from joining a direct competitor are nearly impossible to enforce as it's restricting freedom to work. I may be wrong as I'm not a lawyer.

Nonetheless many contracts and compromise agreements have them and in a high profile environment you couldn’t exactly hide. If it’s legitimately a threat to your ‘business’ then they are legal, providing there is a time limit.
There were moves to make it much harder to have these clauses in 2023 but not sure of the outturn.

[Dozey]

Having the clause in the contract and the clause being enforceable are two different things!

[Banquo]

Having the clause in the contract and the clause being enforceable are two different things!

of course, but suspect it would deter a prospectve employer in such a visible field.

[Timbo]

Sounds like Fasogbon has done his achilles. Won’t see him again until next season if that’s the case.

[FKAS]

Sounds like Fasogbon has done his achilles. Won’t see him again until next season if that’s the case.

Shame, he was playing really well.

[Which Tyler]

On the one hand, dammit - he was playing and developing well.
On the other hand.. he was already in danger of having been overplayed this season.

ETA: FTR, I'm NOT saying that this injury was a result of playing too much

[FKAS]

On the one hand, dammit - he was playing and developing well.
On the other hand.. he was already in danger of having been overplayed this season.

ETA: FTR, I'm NOT saying that this injury was a result of playing too much

Whilst he has played quite a bit he did get rested during the PRC weeks and then for the second Challenge Cup game. Glaws obviously wanted him playing but were building rest weeks into his schedule. Tough for them as he's proving to be an absolute star for them but at the same time they want him to be for years to come.

[Which Tyler]

He did, but he was also already up around 450-ish minutes for the season, just shy of the half-way mark.

My suggested limit 18 years ago, was 600 in a season - though I still admit that it's purely based on instinct, as there is no research on whether there's a safe limit, where it is, or if I'm barking up the wrong tree completely.

[jimKRFC]

Bristol to announce 10 re-signings tomorrow from 13.00.

BJVR and Ravouvou have to be in there!

[FKAS]

He did, but he was also already up around 450-ish minutes for the season, just shy of the half-way mark.

My suggested limit 18 years ago, was 600 in a season - though I still admit that it's purely based on instinct, as there is no research on whether there's a safe limit, where it is, or if I'm barking up the wrong tree completely.

I think you are correct about managing workloads though I'd hope with the technology currently in the game a barometer more sophisticated than minutes is being used. Number of scrums, number of collisions, force of impact monitored through the gumshield etc should all provide data and then a scoring system used to work out when rest was required to ensure that younger players bodies aren't overly stressed during development.

[Puja]

He did, but he was also already up around 450-ish minutes for the season, just shy of the half-way mark.

My suggested limit 18 years ago, was 600 in a season - though I still admit that it's purely based on instinct, as there is no research on whether there's a safe limit, where it is, or if I'm barking up the wrong tree completely.

I think you are correct about managing workloads though I'd hope with the technology currently in the game a barometer more sophisticated than minutes is being used. Number of scrums, number of collisions, force of impact monitored through the gumshield etc should all provide data and then a scoring system used to work out when rest was required to ensure that younger players bodies aren't overly stressed during development.

The problem is the potential contradiction between what's best for the young player's career in 10 years' time, and what's best for Gloucester Rugby's 2024/25 season given the drop-off in quality behind Fasogbon. I don't doubt they can work out the optimal metrics for a player's long-term well-being; I doubt whether they stick religiously to it when there's short-term needs affecting things as well.

Puja

[Which Tyler]

Exactly.
Players want to play. Coaches want their best player son the park as much as possible.
Med staff's job is the patient in front of them now, not so much that same person 30 years later when they're so done else's patient.

If there isn't something hard, fast and public, I wouldn't trust anyone involved to do it right.Having said that, of course there are likely to be better measures than minutes played, but there isn't the research in the blunt measure, let alone the tinkering

[FKAS]

He did, but he was also already up around 450-ish minutes for the season, just shy of the half-way mark.

My suggested limit 18 years ago, was 600 in a season - though I still admit that it's purely based on instinct, as there is no research on whether there's a safe limit, where it is, or if I'm barking up the wrong tree completely.

I think you are correct about managing workloads though I'd hope with the technology currently in the game a barometer more sophisticated than minutes is being used. Number of scrums, number of collisions, force of impact monitored through the gumshield etc should all provide data and then a scoring system used to work out when rest was required to ensure that younger players bodies aren't overly stressed during development.

The problem is the potential contradiction between what's best for the young player's career in 10 years' time, and what's best for Gloucester Rugby's 2024/25 season given the drop-off in quality behind Fasogbon. I don't doubt they can work out the optimal metrics for a player's long-term well-being; I doubt whether they stick religiously to it when there's short-term needs affecting things as well.

Puja

Yeah if you're George Skivington and after a couple of miserable seasons are seeing your side moving towards the fun end of the table. You'll take some risks with the possible generational talent tighthead that's fallen in your lap amongst what is some very average tighthead stocks otherwise.

I agree WT the medical staff should be looking longer term and holding the coaching staff to account.

[TheNomad]

Ribbans interviewed saying because he felt peripheral to the England squad/side, he decided to move to France. That’s a shame IMO, he’s good enough for the 23 IMO

[FKAS]

Ribbans interviewed saying because he felt peripheral to the England squad/side, he decided to move to France. That’s a shame IMO, he’s good enough for the 23 IMO

Under Eddie. Had the deal signed and done by the 6N so didn't wait to see what Borthwick was going to do.

[Epaminondas Pules]

Charlie Morgan piece on Seb Atkinson:
Gloucester have been one of the refreshing success stories of this Premiership season and George Skivington is overseeing something of an Anglo-Welsh enterprise – particularly in the back line.
Tomos Williams and Gareth Anscombe have provided much-needed direction. It may seem trivial, but sources relay how those two experienced half-backs have made training sessions far louder on account of their constant chatter.
Josh Hathaway is a livewire on the wing and Max Llewellyn has impressed as a strapping runner, whether required out wide or in a more familiar centre role. All told, there is plenty there to encourage Wales head coach Warren Gatland – especially with Freddie Thomas, the mobile lock, going well.
But Steve Borthwick should have been paying attention, too, because inside centre Seb Atkinson is the sort of player that seems rather rare in England. He is reasonably sturdy, standing at 6ft 2in tall and weighing close to 100kg (15st 11lb), and is said to be a deceptively hard hitter. Still just 22, he exudes poise on the ball and stays square on the gain line, taking sharp options and distributing skilfully to manufacture space for others.
Last Friday evening, the disguise on his deft swivel-pass to a looping Williams was critical in causing the Harlequins defence to concertina, allowing Anscombe to loop the ball out to Hathaway for a first-phase try.

While there has been some justification over the perceived scarcity of England-qualified inside centres around the league, Atkinson has rather understatedly accumulated 37 Premiership appearances – as well as a few in the Challenge and Champions Cup competitions – since the 2021-22 campaign.
The first five of these Premiership games were for Worcester Warriors before the West Midlands club went under. There are many, many might-have-beens attached to the demises of Worcester, Wasps and London Irish. Few are more wistful than the prospect of Fin Smith, Atkinson and Ollie Lawrence joining forces for Warriors as a 10-12-13 combination of academy graduates.
As it happens, all three are going nicely at new homes and could well find themselves in the same England set-up at some stage in the future. Skivington was effusive about Atkinson’s potential in the wake of a 14-0 victory over Harlequins that has propelled Gloucester to sixth.
“He’s brilliant, Seb,” said the Cherry and Whites head coach. “From day one, we’ve invested in him and I think he’s a brilliant young prospect, a brilliant character. He’s a leader. He’s not a loud guy – he’s quite quiet – but he packs a way bigger punch than he should. I think he’s got to be in international talk, in my opinion, and I’m really pleased for him because he’s just a good bloke as well.

“There have been a lot of physically big 12s who punch hard,” Skivington added. “[Seb] is quite unique. When I played, Stuart Abbott wasn’t a massive 12 but he had great footwork. Seb is quite similar in stature… but he can run hard and run over you as well as bang you in defence. I can’t actually think of anyone I would compare him to, but he is a brilliant individual and if he gets an opportunity he will take it.”
It is understood that Atkinson, who was out of contract at the end of the season, has extended terms with Gloucester for two more years. The question now is whether Borthwick is intrigued enough to invite him into the England fold.
Lawrence and Henry Slade have started 10 Tests together in succession, but they have not been so convincing as to stop supporters wondering about alternative midfield configurations as the Six Nations approaches.
Benhard Janse van Rensburg is the Premiership’s pre-eminent centre, and would theoretically qualify on residency in 2026. However, he seems to be scuppered by virtue of a single appearance for South Africa Under-20 in 2016.
Benhard Janse van Rensburg in action for Bristol
Benhard Janse van Rensburg wants to play for England, but will he be allowed? Credit: Getty Images/David Rogers
Fraser Dingwall is an unfussy facilitator who, lest we forget, wore 12 for England at the beginning of 2024. Sam Vesty recently explained that Dingwall has overcome a long-standing niggle and he was outstanding in Northampton Saints’ defeat of the Bulls in Pretoria as well as for England A in November alongside Oscar Beard. There appears to be a reluctance for Lawrence to defend in the 13 channel, a responsibility that Dingwall could fulfil if he were to replace Slade.
England called up Luke Northmore and Alex Lozowski to their autumn training camp without fielding either in a Test match. Tommy Freeman shifted to 13 for fleeting moments. Elsewhere around the country, Borthwick is obviously curious about Max Ojomoh and Olly Hartley. Both of the latter have represented England A and been involved in those squads in 2024. Zack Wimbush is an emerging talent at Exeter Chiefs and Joe Woodward is enjoying a breakthrough for Leicester Tigers.
The first three of those candidates are finding their feet after returning from injury. None apart from Woodward have accrued significant game time in the Premiership this term. Atkinson, who comprehensively outplayed Montpellier-bound Lennox Anyanwu on Friday evening, is doing just that. And has been for a while.
Gloucester travel to Sandy Park on Sunday. Compound Exeter’s misery by condemning Chiefs to another loss and they will be right in the play-off mix at the turn of the year. That could set up 2025 to be a big year for Skivington’s charges collectively and Atkinson as an individual.

[FKAS]

Nice to see Seb Atkinson getting some positive press.

[twitchy]

Yep, good article. Surely he needs to be at least looked at. The cupboard is bare at centre. Let lawrence play his normal position.

[Banquo]

Yep, good article. Surely he needs to be at least looked at. The cupboard is bare at centre. Let lawrence play his normal position.

Justice 4 dingers

[p/d]

Yep, good article. Surely he needs to be at least looked at. The cupboard is bare at centre. Let lawrence play his normal position.

Justice 4 dingers

Shift dingers to 13 and Lawrence to bench. Slade to see his career out with the Pirates.

I’m starting to think people aren’t ready for Steward at 12.

[FKAS]

Yep, good article. Surely he needs to be at least looked at. The cupboard is bare at centre. Let lawrence play his normal position.

Justice 4 dingers

Captain of the A side seems fair currently.