America

[Son of Mathonwy]

The 'Roman' connection is that Italian fascist Mussolini used the salute (although there's no evidence that it was ever used in ancient Rome), and then Hitler copied Mussolini. It's the fascist salute, most well-known as the Nazi salute.

[Stom]

Honestly...who cares?

We know he's a pretty abhorrent human being.

We can choose to remove ourselves from Twatter, we can choose to boycott Tesla, et al, products, we can choose to tell our friends and family to do likewise.

To be honest, this whole thing has flown past me. We know what Trump is likely to bring to the world. We know what he stands for. And for most of us (there are a few who live there, or work there), it does not have a direct impact.

For me, the fact that Viktor is now an outcast - not at the inauguration - is cause for optimism, while I see sentiment expressed across Europe that I can get behind.

But will people come to understand why Trump has been elected in the first place? Or will the "non-right wing", because I'm not sure I can say that any of the political powers in the world are truly left wing or even left of center, parties continue to play the same game, politically?

There is a lot we need to learn from this situation, and I hope that we do. As a society, we need to adapt and change substantially to avoid falling into a massive pit of two tiered economies and extreme poverty.

[Which Tyler]

Yeah, it's a difference without a difference - and either way, he's certainly a fascist

[Son of Mathonwy]

Funny to think of how excited various media outlets were about the possibility that Jeremy Corbyn was an antisemite. They don't seem quite so interested in the possibility that known fascist Elon Musk is an antisemite.

Imagine their reaction if Corbyn had performed two perfect fascist salutes in front of millions. It almost seems like double standards.

[cashead]

Now - is he a nazi, or "just" a wannabe edgelord, ally of nazis who enjoys mimicking nazis in order to troll his enemies? I've no idea. Neither speaks well of him, and neither means that his salute wasn't a variation of the Roman Salute.

I love the people who genuinely debate this, like there is any genuine difference. "He's not actually a Nazi; he just enjoys making people think he's a Nazi for the reactions it gets." Ummmm, great. Good job by him; I bought it completely.

Puja

He doesn't actually enjoy shitting his pants, he just enjoys making people think he enjoys shitting his pants!

[J Dory]

5 days of Trump. Wow. I just don't have the words.

[paddy no 11]

5 days of Trump. Wow. I just don't have the words.

They just made a nazi secretary for defence, he wants to kill everyone on the American left..........

[Son of Mathonwy]

According to Greg Palast, voter suppression (eg purging of black and young people from the voting rolls) was large enough to swing the election for Trump. A horrific outcome, and the explanation for the pollsters 'getting it wrong' ie finding that Harris was marginally ahead of Trump in contrast to the actual result.

https://www.gregpalast.com/trump-lost-v ... ssion-won/

[paddy no 11]

The notion ghat this will be over in 4 years time seems very optimistic

Are they going to take Greenland by force?

[Puja]

https://www.facebook.com/share/p/1AAsyitQRV/

Background on Musk's Nazi salute by someone who knew him well.

Puja

[Which Tyler]

TY

[Stom]

https://www.facebook.com/share/p/1AAsyitQRV/

Background on Musk's Nazi salute by someone who knew him well.

Puja

Meh, not much new there. Think it was pretty obvious

[Mikey Brown]

You can say obvious, but there are an awful lot of people with very different opinions about his beliefs and motivations. Never heard of this guy honestly, but thought it was sort of interesting.

I don’t know that there’s any real way to get through to his fanboys. There are lots of scientists and researchers calling him out to no avail, but maybe the voice of another billionaire tech bro, who had a personal relationship with him, might make a dent?

Provoking him in to blowing a gasket and making a big mistake is basically the only hope he gets recognised for what he is.

My feeling is it’s probably too late though. The country has been auctioned off and even if Trump voters realise that now it probably doesn’t matter.

It did feel very strange to actually open a Facebook link. I know logically there are still people that use, but it doesn’t seem right.

[cashead]

It's pretty big in India, for some reason.

[Stom]

You can say obvious, but there are an awful lot of people with very different opinions about his beliefs and motivations. Never heard of this guy honestly, but thought it was sort of interesting.

I don’t know that there’s any real way to get through to his fanboys. There are lots of scientists and researchers calling him out to no avail, but maybe the voice of another billionaire tech bro, who had a personal relationship with him, might make a dent?

Provoking him in to blowing a gasket and making a big mistake is basically the only hope he gets recognised for what he is.

My feeling is it’s probably too late though. The country has been auctioned off and even if Trump voters realise that now it probably doesn’t matter.

It did feel very strange to actually open a Facebook link. I know logically there are still people that use, but it doesn’t seem right.

His fanboys are fanboys in the same way they are fanboys of other far right talking heads: they say what they want to hear. This guy will never be listened to.

The only way to get through to them is to crash the "tech bubble". And the only way to do that is for Europe to grow a backbone and take a little short-term pain for the betterment of European people.

In other words, we're screwed.

[Stom]

It's pretty big in India, for some reason.

Facebook is still the most used social media, no matter what people tell you.

Yes, the age has crept up, but people on FB are more engaged, on average, than other mediums, while the core user numbers are way ahead. It may have dropped in popularity among a very specific demographic, but considering that demo seems to be flip flopping all over the place because every social media is run by the big nasties, I don't think we need to worry.

[Son of Mathonwy]

https://www.facebook.com/share/p/1AAsyitQRV/

Background on Musk's Nazi salute by someone who knew him well.

Puja

Interesting insight. Admittedly from another egotistical tech-billionaire but it seems plausible.

This is an interesting take on Musk's motivations (released just before the fascist salutes), essentially a logical explanation from Musk's support for the far right and in particular, anti-immigration policies. Ie the same reason that all fascists have used them - as scapegoats, a distraction from real problems. Blaming immigrants means not recognising that inequality is the problem. If people realised that the solution would involve taking money from people like Musk, which is unacceptable to Musk.



I have no doubt this is driving Musk's support for the far right. Whether he is also a cultural fascist/Nazi is I guess unknown without reading his mind. But then no doubt there were some high up in the Third Reich who happily went along with all the horrors for nothing other than personal gain.

[Which Tyler]

But then no doubt there were some high up in the Third Reich who happily went along with all the horrors for nothing other than personal gain.

Historians have a special name for people like that - "Nazis"

Personally, I'm not a fan of labelling people as nazis - that's one specific flavour of fascism, and flavour of fascism is unacceptable, and I don't see the need to offer any wriggle room whatsoever. Franco and Mussolini weren't better people, just because they weren't technically nazis

[Son of Mathonwy]

But then no doubt there were some high up in the Third Reich who happily went along with all the horrors for nothing other than personal gain.

Historians have a special name for people like that - "Nazis"

Personally, I'm not a fan of labelling people as nazis - that's one specific flavour of fascism, and flavour of fascism is unacceptable, and I don't see the need to offer any wriggle room whatsoever. Franco and Mussolini weren't better people, just because they weren't technically nazis

Exactly.

I would prefer to call Musk a fascist, since there's no wriggle room there - performing a fascist salute, twice, in front of a very large audience with no irony or obvious other meaning (nor has any other been given since by Musk). I mentioned Nazi because that's the term Philip Low used.

Whether Musk believes some races are better than others or is just encouraging that view for his own gain, we can never truly know. And, in many respects, it doesn't matter.

[paddy no 11]

There's a financial Times article about musk and thiel and apartheid south Africa, easily found in a Google search. Give it a read.

To me ot rings a lot truer than that Facebook post.

[cashead]

But then no doubt there were some high up in the Third Reich who happily went along with all the horrors for nothing other than personal gain.

Historians have a special name for people like that - "Nazis"

Personally, I'm not a fan of labelling people as nazis - that's one specific flavour of fascism, and flavour of fascism is unacceptable, and I don't see the need to offer any wriggle room whatsoever. Franco and Mussolini weren't better people, just because they weren't technically nazis

When they're cozying up to a president that yells neo-nazi talking points, then yeah, I'm pretty comfortable calling them nazis.

[Mikey Brown]

So... Guantanamo eh?

[Puja]

So... Guantanamo eh?

People before the election: "Stop being alarmist - Trump won't set up actual concentration camps if he wins. You just compare everything you don't like to the Nazis."

Although, I suppose in fairness, he's not setting a concentration camp up, just expanding the one that the US already had in case of emergencies/suspicious foreigners, so technically speaking they're still correct.

Puja

[Son of Mathonwy]

So... Guantanamo eh?

People before the election: "Stop being alarmist - Trump won't set up actual concentration camps if he wins. You just compare everything you don't like to the Nazis."

Although, I suppose in fairness, he's not setting a concentration camp up, just expanding the one that the US already had in case of emergencies/suspicious foreigners, so technically speaking they're still correct.

Puja

I'm sure the detainees will have nothing to worry about, America always respects international law.

Obama should have shut the place down.

[Puja]

So... Guantanamo eh?

People before the election: "Stop being alarmist - Trump won't set up actual concentration camps if he wins. You just compare everything you don't like to the Nazis."

Although, I suppose in fairness, he's not setting a concentration camp up, just expanding the one that the US already had in case of emergencies/suspicious foreigners, so technically speaking they're still correct.

Puja

I'm sure the detainees will have nothing to worry about, America always respects international law.

Obama should have shut the place down.

Obama should've done a lot of things more ethically, but that one is pretty high on the list.

In retrospect, he should've used his incredibly short time (24 working days between illnesses, death, appeals over elections, special elections, etc) with a supermajority to fix US democracy rather than pass the Affordable Care Act. The latter was hugely more important in terms of the impact it had on American lives and his legacy, so I understand why he made the choices that he did, but with 20:20 hindsight, over the long-term, life would've been a fuck of a lot easier for Democrats if he'd used that time to get rid of the electoral college, and get DC and Puerto Rico in as states. An additional 4 votes in the Senate would've made it easier to pass legislation later (not to mention preventing the Mitch McConnell fuckery over judge confirmations) and Trump could not have won 2016 without the electoral college.

Puja