Snap General Election called - The new UK Politics thread

[Puja]

No doubt Labour's spineless failure to retaliate against US tariffs on metals will cause Trump to respect us. Yep, that'll work.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... mp-tariffs

This is one area where I actually think Starmer's doing the right thing. Trump is a petulant, self-centred, solipsist child with no attention span and a ridiculous ego, who has been completely spoiled. He has no understanding of the concept of "being wrong" as he's been sheltered from any consequences for anything and his cult justify and agree with everything he says. Retaliatory tariffs are not going to do anything to change his behaviour - he either doesn't understand or doesn't care about the damage they will cause to the US economy and everything suggests that he'll react to being challenged by doubling down and digging his heels in, just like any toddler who's told no. Our best chance of getting out from it is to flatter him and find something unimportant that we can offer him so that he can go away and parade that he's got "a deal".

Basically, I'm endorsing Starmer using gentle parenting on him. For all my criticisms of him, this is probably the task that Starmer's best suited for - speaking pleasing empty words, saying what someone wants to hear to get what he wants, without ever intending on delivering. He was made for this!

Puja

[Sandydragon]

No doubt Labour's spineless failure to retaliate against US tariffs on metals will cause Trump to respect us. Yep, that'll work.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... mp-tariffs

This is one area where I actually think Starmer's doing the right thing. Trump is a petulant, self-centred, solipsist child with no attention span and a ridiculous ego, who has been completely spoiled. He has no understanding of the concept of "being wrong" as he's been sheltered from any consequences for anything and his cult justify and agree with everything he says. Retaliatory tariffs are not going to do anything to change his behaviour - he either doesn't understand or doesn't care about the damage they will cause to the US economy and everything suggests that he'll react to being challenged by doubling down and digging his heels in, just like any toddler who's told no. Our best chance of getting out from it is to flatter him and find something unimportant that we can offer him so that he can go away and parade that he's got "a deal".

Basically, I'm endorsing Starmer using gentle parenting on him. For all my criticisms of him, this is probably the task that Starmer's best suited for - speaking pleasing empty words, saying what someone wants to hear to get what he wants, without ever intending on delivering. He was made for this!

Puja

Trump also has a thing for the British monarchy. Being flattered by a knight of the realm won’t hurt.

It’s sickening but also good diplomacy if we get what we want out of this.

[Son of Mathonwy]

No doubt Labour's spineless failure to retaliate against US tariffs on metals will cause Trump to respect us. Yep, that'll work.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... mp-tariffs

This is one area where I actually think Starmer's doing the right thing. Trump is a petulant, self-centred, solipsist child with no attention span and a ridiculous ego, who has been completely spoiled. He has no understanding of the concept of "being wrong" as he's been sheltered from any consequences for anything and his cult justify and agree with everything he says. Retaliatory tariffs are not going to do anything to change his behaviour - he either doesn't understand or doesn't care about the damage they will cause to the US economy and everything suggests that he'll react to being challenged by doubling down and digging his heels in, just like any toddler who's told no. Our best chance of getting out from it is to flatter him and find something unimportant that we can offer him so that he can go away and parade that he's got "a deal".

Basically, I'm endorsing Starmer using gentle parenting on him. For all my criticisms of him, this is probably the task that Starmer's best suited for - speaking pleasing empty words, saying what someone wants to hear to get what he wants, without ever intending on delivering. He was made for this!

Puja

Oh yeah, he does spinelessness like a natural, I agree with that.

I just don't think you can let someone get away with this. Don't have to be anything but painstakingly polite about it - and make it very clear in advance how it's nothing personal, just tariffs need to be returned. Nothing heavy but something as like-for-like as possible.

It's not like he's even demanding anything of us. Our trade is pretty balanced with the US. And we're not sending fentanyl or immigrants over the border, so what can we actually do?

[Puja]

No doubt Labour's spineless failure to retaliate against US tariffs on metals will cause Trump to respect us. Yep, that'll work.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... mp-tariffs

This is one area where I actually think Starmer's doing the right thing. Trump is a petulant, self-centred, solipsist child with no attention span and a ridiculous ego, who has been completely spoiled. He has no understanding of the concept of "being wrong" as he's been sheltered from any consequences for anything and his cult justify and agree with everything he says. Retaliatory tariffs are not going to do anything to change his behaviour - he either doesn't understand or doesn't care about the damage they will cause to the US economy and everything suggests that he'll react to being challenged by doubling down and digging his heels in, just like any toddler who's told no. Our best chance of getting out from it is to flatter him and find something unimportant that we can offer him so that he can go away and parade that he's got "a deal".

Basically, I'm endorsing Starmer using gentle parenting on him. For all my criticisms of him, this is probably the task that Starmer's best suited for - speaking pleasing empty words, saying what someone wants to hear to get what he wants, without ever intending on delivering. He was made for this!

Puja

Oh yeah, he does spinelessness like a natural, I agree with that.

I just don't think you can let someone get away with this. Don't have to be anything but painstakingly polite about it - and make it very clear in advance how it's nothing personal, just tariffs need to be returned. Nothing heavy but something as like-for-like as possible.

It's not like he's even demanding anything of us. Our trade is pretty balanced with the US. And we're not sending fentanyl or immigrants over the border, so what can we actually do?

The problem is that he thinks he's owed getting away with this - there's no retaliation or punishment or consequences that will shake his opinion that he, and the US, are special and deserves special treatment. Even being polite and reasonable and even will be taken as being unfair.

Your last paragraph is the way in - emphasise that *of course* he's right to put tariffs on those awful Trump-hating freeloaders, but we're not the ones causing trouble and Britain loves Trump, so of course it's right to build our special relationship and have us be an exception. Emphasise how we're whoring out the king showing him respect and decorum through his Royal visit and that Charles is personally so sad that we can't have tariff-free trade.

This is, of course, assuming that our end goal is to have the tariffs removed asap. There is the other perspective of telling Trump to go fuck himself sideways and decouple ourselves from the falling Empire as gracefully as we can.

Puja

[Son of Mathonwy]

Trump is a petulant, self-centred, solipsist child with no attention span and a ridiculous ego, who has been completely spoiled.

As a complete aside, I've seen people making the point that he's 'not just a narcissist - he's a solipsist', but I don't think this is right.

Solipsism is the philosophical position that the only thing that exists is oneself (or one's mind). Someone with solipsism syndrome (or words to that effect) feels like nothing outside of themselves is real. Now I get how this might be a more extreme condition than narcissism but I think it's pretty unlikely that Trump actually suffers from it (in general). He clearly thinks he is the only thing that really matters but it's also clear he does think the outside world exists (even if its primary purpose is to serve him).

[Puja]

Trump is a petulant, self-centred, solipsist child with no attention span and a ridiculous ego, who has been completely spoiled.

As a complete aside, I've seen people making the point that he's 'not just a narcissist - he's a solipsist', but I don't think this is right.

Solipsism is the philosophical position that the only thing that exists is oneself (or one's mind). Someone with solipsism syndrome (or words to that effect) feels like nothing outside of themselves is real. Now I get how this might be a more extreme condition than narcissism but I think it's pretty unlikely that Trump actually suffers from it (in general). He clearly thinks he is the only thing that really matters but it's also clear he does think the outside world exists (even if its primary purpose is to serve him).

Mmm, fair point. You're probably right that he's less likely to be actively solipsist then he is to be simply grotesquely lacking in empathy and stupefyingly selfish - knows full well that other people exist, just considers them utterly meaningless except in how they can benefit him.

Puja

[Which Tyler]

He's pretty pronoid, if that helps

[Son of Mathonwy]

This is one area where I actually think Starmer's doing the right thing. Trump is a petulant, self-centred, solipsist child with no attention span and a ridiculous ego, who has been completely spoiled. He has no understanding of the concept of "being wrong" as he's been sheltered from any consequences for anything and his cult justify and agree with everything he says. Retaliatory tariffs are not going to do anything to change his behaviour - he either doesn't understand or doesn't care about the damage they will cause to the US economy and everything suggests that he'll react to being challenged by doubling down and digging his heels in, just like any toddler who's told no. Our best chance of getting out from it is to flatter him and find something unimportant that we can offer him so that he can go away and parade that he's got "a deal".

Basically, I'm endorsing Starmer using gentle parenting on him. For all my criticisms of him, this is probably the task that Starmer's best suited for - speaking pleasing empty words, saying what someone wants to hear to get what he wants, without ever intending on delivering. He was made for this!

Puja

Oh yeah, he does spinelessness like a natural, I agree with that.

I just don't think you can let someone get away with this. Don't have to be anything but painstakingly polite about it - and make it very clear in advance how it's nothing personal, just tariffs need to be returned. Nothing heavy but something as like-for-like as possible.

It's not like he's even demanding anything of us. Our trade is pretty balanced with the US. And we're not sending fentanyl or immigrants over the border, so what can we actually do?

The problem is that he thinks he's owed getting away with this - there's no retaliation or punishment or consequences that will shake his opinion that he, and the US, are special and deserves special treatment. Even being polite and reasonable and even will be taken as being unfair.

Your last paragraph is the way in - emphasise that *of course* he's right to put tariffs on those awful Trump-hating freeloaders, but we're not the ones causing trouble and Britain loves Trump, so of course it's right to build our special relationship and have us be an exception. Emphasise how we're whoring out the king showing him respect and decorum through his Royal visit and that Charles is personally so sad that we can't have tariff-free trade.

This is, of course, assuming that our end goal is to have the tariffs removed asap. There is the other perspective of telling Trump to go fuck himself sideways and decouple ourselves from the falling Empire as gracefully as we can.

Puja

Yeah, you guys could be right. Is he a toddler, is he a bully, has he any capacity to be influenced, what kind of person does he find influential? Is it better to show abject sycophancy or would the Brits get more respect showing a bit of spine? Who knows in the end? I'll stick with my view though, even if it is just a guess.

[Which Tyler]

Once again, Reform are... more-or-less exactly who you'd expect them to be

Reform UK candidate suspended after Savile tweets

[Son of Mathonwy]

I am hoping that Reeves can think outside the box just a little now and contemplate relaxing the fiscal rules, ie to allow us to borrow more and not be hamstrung by the last cell in the OBR's spreadsheet.

Prioritising reduce the deficit when facing a recession or depression would be incredibly stupid.

[Puja]

I am hoping that Reeves can think outside the box just a little now and contemplate relaxing the fiscal rules, ie to allow us to borrow more and not be hamstrung by the last cell in the OBR's spreadsheet.

Prioritising reduce the deficit when facing a recession or depression would be incredibly stupid.

There's a fairly decent argument that this should be treated as an extraordinary crisis or natural disaster, in the same way we did for coronavirus. Just chuck what spending is needed into stimulus to keep the economy going through it and worry about the debt later.

Puja

[Which Tyler]

North-East Somerset - all the best politicians...

Rees-Mogg outl and then... erm...

Labour MP Dan Norris arrested on suspicion of rape and child sex offences

Mr Norris, the MP for North East Somerset and Hanham, has been suspended by the Labour Party.

[Son of Mathonwy]

I am hoping that Reeves can think outside the box just a little now and contemplate relaxing the fiscal rules, ie to allow us to borrow more and not be hamstrung by the last cell in the OBR's spreadsheet.

Prioritising reduce the deficit when facing a recession or depression would be incredibly stupid.

There's a fairly decent argument that this should be treated as an extraordinary crisis or natural disaster, in the same way we did for coronavirus. Just chuck what spending is needed into stimulus to keep the economy going through it and worry about the debt later.

Puja

Exactly. It's madness to try to fine-tune current spending - scrabbling around to cut a few billion more here or there - so that after 4 years of OBR guesswork their spreadsheet shows the deficit being reduced. No one knows what's going to happen on Monday, let alone 2029. This is an emergency, the next 4 years will be a time of random US policy, all predictions will be off, we need the money now.

[Son of Mathonwy]

North-East Somerset - all the best politicians...

Rees-Mogg outl and then... erm...

Labour MP Dan Norris arrested on suspicion of rape and child sex offences

Mr Norris, the MP for North East Somerset and Hanham, has been suspended by the Labour Party.

Oh Christ, could Rees-Mogg come back??? Fuck, that's one of the few silver linings we have.

[Son of Mathonwy]

Ah, the inevitable Lord Gove. One of the leading architects of the shit we're in.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... -a-peerage

[paddy no 11]

He wrote an article advocating for a noble peace prize for the IDF,

[Son of Mathonwy]

Ministers privately briefing that the 2-cap limit is here to stay. In that case let me publicly brief that they will lose the next election.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/202 ... nefits-cap

Allegedly the cap is popular, because it's 'fair'. Sorry, Starmer, even if that's so*, this is where you show you are a leader, and lead the country - even the selfish cunts - to a better future.


* and I'm not convinced. Even if it is, it's not going to be a priority. No one's going to be rioting in the streets to keep the 2-child limit. It surely can't be that hard to make the case for lifting children out of poverty. There's even an economic case - in the short-term, stimulating the economy and in the long-term these children will contribute more to society and more than pay back any costs.

[Puja]

Ministers privately briefing that the 2-cap limit is here to stay. In that case let me publicly brief that they will lose the next election.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/202 ... nefits-cap

Allegedly the cap is popular, because it's 'fair'. Sorry, Starmer, even if that's so*, this is where you show you are a leader, and lead the country - even the selfish cunts - to a better future.


* and I'm not convinced. Even if it is, it's not going to be a priority. No one's going to be rioting in the streets to keep the 2-child limit. It surely can't be that hard to make the case for lifting children out of poverty. There's even an economic case - in the short-term, stimulating the economy and in the long-term these children will contribute more to society and more than pay back any costs.

"Popular with key voters" - Starmer continuing to prioritise chasing Reform and Tory voters and expecting that the left will fall into line no matter what he does. My brother in christ, you've got a majority of nearly 160 - there are no further right wing votes available for you to get, no matter how hard you chase.

When will he realise that his voters aren't fucking off to Reform because he's not right wing enough, but because they wanted change, he promised change, and now that he's not delivering change, they're going to someone else who promises change?

I am currently waiting Labour's inevitable imminent statement on LGBTQ rights and how they're very negotiable if Reform voters will just love him again.

Puja

[Puja]

I am currently waiting Labour's inevitable imminent statement on LGBTQ rights and how they're very negotiable if Reform voters will just love him again.

Well, on the bright side, at least I didn't have to wait that long. Less than 2 hours from gloomy prediction to a No 10 press briefing. Fantastic.

Puja

[Son of Mathonwy]

Ministers privately briefing that the 2-cap limit is here to stay. In that case let me publicly brief that they will lose the next election.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/202 ... nefits-cap

Allegedly the cap is popular, because it's 'fair'. Sorry, Starmer, even if that's so*, this is where you show you are a leader, and lead the country - even the selfish cunts - to a better future.


* and I'm not convinced. Even if it is, it's not going to be a priority. No one's going to be rioting in the streets to keep the 2-child limit. It surely can't be that hard to make the case for lifting children out of poverty. There's even an economic case - in the short-term, stimulating the economy and in the long-term these children will contribute more to society and more than pay back any costs.

"Popular with key voters" - Starmer continuing to prioritise chasing Reform and Tory voters and expecting that the left will fall into line no matter what he does. My brother in christ, you've got a majority of nearly 160 - there are no further right wing votes available for you to get, no matter how hard you chase.

When will he realise that his voters aren't fucking off to Reform because he's not right wing enough, but because they wanted change, he promised change, and now that he's not delivering change, they're going to someone else who promises change?

I am currently waiting Labour's inevitable imminent statement on LGBTQ rights and how they're very negotiable if Reform voters will just love him again.

Puja

Well, on LGBTQ they've stated that they welcome the Supreme Court's recent decision and that it brings clarity.

FFS Starmer, Reform voters aren't going to vote Labour. Give it up. If they want bigotry they'll go to team Bigot, no matter how appallingly you behave. Meantime your appalling policies are causing real harm. I don't expect you give a shit about that but they will also do harm to your electoral chances.

[Mikey Brown]

Puja, do you have any mod powers to stop me from opening this thread? It makes me want to blow my head off.

[Son of Mathonwy]

Jesus. Yvette Cooper. I realize that she isn't in the same league as the monstrous Patel and Braverman but dear god why does someone so right-wing join the Labour party?

League tables of the criminality of foreigners by nationality. Which universe exists where this isn't a massive win for the Tories and Reform UK? How can this not fuel prejudice? How about league tables for criminality by race? That's next surely.

Even if full context is provided, eg the numbers as a proportion of that group in the UK and the same figures for UK criminals, that context will be stripped from them again when the right-wing press regurgitates them on their front pages, or when Farage, Jenrick, Badenoch and Tice use them as ammunition. The publication of these numbers, every time, will be a gift to Farage et al, and a fucking milstone around the neck of the government. They are morally and politically clueless.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/202 ... alities-uk

[Banquo]

Jesus. Yvette Cooper. I realize that she isn't in the same league as the monstrous Patel and Braverman but dear god why does someone so right-wing join the Labour party?

League tables of the criminality of foreigners by nationality. Which universe exists where this isn't a massive win for the Tories and Reform UK? How can this not fuel prejudice? How about league tables for criminality by race? That's next surely.

Even if full context is provided, eg the numbers as a proportion of that group in the UK and the same figures for UK criminals, that context will be stripped from them again when the right-wing press regurgitates them on their front pages, or when Farage, Jenrick, Badenoch and Tice use them as ammunition. The publication of these numbers, every time, will be a gift to Farage et al, and a fucking milstone around the neck of the government. They are morally and politically clueless.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/202 ... alities-uk

It's utterly mad, I can't see any logic behind that at all.

[Puja]

Puja, do you have any mod powers to stop me from opening this thread? It makes me want to blow my head off.

If I did, I wouldn't use them. If I'm going to continually make myself suffer, I don't see why you shouldn't have to join me.

Jesus. Yvette Cooper. I realize that she isn't in the same league as the monstrous Patel and Braverman but dear god why does someone so right-wing join the Labour party?

League tables of the criminality of foreigners by nationality. Which universe exists where this isn't a massive win for the Tories and Reform UK? How can this not fuel prejudice? How about league tables for criminality by race? That's next surely.

Even if full context is provided, eg the numbers as a proportion of that group in the UK and the same figures for UK criminals, that context will be stripped from them again when the right-wing press regurgitates them on their front pages, or when Farage, Jenrick, Badenoch and Tice use them as ammunition. The publication of these numbers, every time, will be a gift to Farage et al, and a fucking milstone around the neck of the government. They are morally and politically clueless.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/202 ... alities-uk

Jesus wept.

Puja

[Sandydragon]

Jesus. Yvette Cooper. I realize that she isn't in the same league as the monstrous Patel and Braverman but dear god why does someone so right-wing join the Labour party?

League tables of the criminality of foreigners by nationality. Which universe exists where this isn't a massive win for the Tories and Reform UK? How can this not fuel prejudice? How about league tables for criminality by race? That's next surely.

Even if full context is provided, eg the numbers as a proportion of that group in the UK and the same figures for UK criminals, that context will be stripped from them again when the right-wing press regurgitates them on their front pages, or when Farage, Jenrick, Badenoch and Tice use them as ammunition. The publication of these numbers, every time, will be a gift to Farage et al, and a fucking milstone around the neck of the government. They are morally and politically clueless.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/202 ... alities-uk

It's utterly mad, I can't see any logic behind that at all.

It’s an appalling idea.

First up, I don’t think most police officers record if an offender or victim is an immigrant or not, and then what their original country of origin was.

Secondly what will this show? It might demonstrate that immigrants cause less crime. Or it might show that one particular group is disproportionately offending. In which case the nutters will be out to play.