Argentina vs England first test - Sat 8.40pm

[Mikey Brown]

Ewels isn't an international quality lock either. He's a good club level lock that's repeatedly choked when making the step up, on his good days at international level he was anonymous. In terms of leadership and experience I get it but it's far from ideal to have him there.

That's very much swinging too far in the opposite direction - he has looked at minimum competent most of the time at international level and IIRC was deservedly a first choice pick when he got the first red against Ireland (and I believe was PotM in the previous fame). He's not a superstar, but he's definitely a solid international.

I don't like having to defend Ewels; stop making me!

Puja

He's got 30 caps and his highlights reel is two red cards. He's a solid pro who will likely do the sort of solid job that will allow others to hopefully create some highlight reels bits. We do need to develop more locks though. I hope Clark gets a go next time out, even if it's off the bench.

I mean what does Grant Gilchrist’s highlight reel look like? He’s got 70 odd caps. Most locks aren’t doing much exciting, even at the top level.

That’s not me arguing Gilchrist is a top player either. I’d agree Ewels is a solid, but uninspiring international. It will be mega funny if he does the treble though.

[Captainhaircut]

How is Ewels as a mauler? The French beat us up there.

Lineout will be interesting- presume Underhill will be the third jumper?

[FKAS]

How is Ewels as a mauler? The French beat us up there.

Lineout will be interesting- presume Underhill will be the third jumper?

Curry perhaps. Willis could do a job there as well though ideally you'd want him on Ford's shoulder to keep the Puma defence narrow.

I'd imagine one of the reasons Ewels is back in is the set piece.

[Scrumhead]

That's very much swinging too far in the opposite direction - he has looked at minimum competent most of the time at international level and IIRC was deservedly a first choice pick when he got the first red against Ireland (and I believe was PotM in the previous fame). He's not a superstar, but he's definitely a solid international.

I don't like having to defend Ewels; stop making me!

Puja

He's got 30 caps and his highlights reel is two red cards. He's a solid pro who will likely do the sort of solid job that will allow others to hopefully create some highlight reels bits. We do need to develop more locks though. I hope Clark gets a go next time out, even if it's off the bench.

I mean what does Grant Gilchrist’s highlight reel look like? He’s got 70 odd caps. Most locks aren’t doing much exciting, even at the top level.

That’s not me arguing Gilchrist is a top player either. I’d agree Ewels is a solid, but uninspiring international. It will be mega funny if he does the treble though.

Yeah. This is where I’m at. I wouldn’t have picked Ewels but I don’t think it’s fair to say he’s not capable of cutting at test level.

[Which Tyler]

Argentina


1. VIVAS, Mayco (28 caps)
2. MONTOYA, Julián (105 caps) Captain
3. DELGADO, Pedro (2 caps)
4. PAULOS, Lucas (14 caps)
5. RUBIOLO, Pedro (20 caps)
6. MATERA, Pablo (109 caps) Vice-captain
7. GONZÁLEZ, Juan Martín (40 caps)
8. ISA, Facundo (51 caps)
9. BERTRANOU, Gonzalo (67 caps)
10. CARRERAS, Santiago (53 caps) Vice-captain
11. CORDERO, Santiago (54 caps)
12. PICCARDO, Justo (1 cap)
13. CINTI, Lucio (32 caps)
14. ISGRÓ, Rodrigo (7 caps)
15. ELIZALDE, Benjamín (0 caps)

FINISHERS

16. BERNASCONI, Bautista (0 caps)
17. GALLO, Thomas (35 caps)
18. CORIA MARCHETTI, Francisco (1 cap)
19. GRONDONA, Santiago (20 caps)
20. MORO, Joaquín (1 cap)
21. BENÍTEZ CRUZ, Simón (0 caps)
22. ROGER, Nicolás (0 caps)
23. MORONI, Matías (89 caps

[FKAS]

No Albornez, no Oviedo are two surprises. They were both excellent Vs the Lions. The Toulouse lads aren't involved either and neither is Petti. That's not as strong as I expected them to be.

[Scrumhead]

Interesting selection. Atkinson making his debut against a 1 cap 12 and while I might not like the prospect of a lot of kicking, Steward, Muir and Roebuck could give Elizalde a rough ride on his debut.

Also are they scraping the barrel a bit at tighthead? Not a lot of experience in those two.

[fivepointer]

Argentina's scrum isnt the force it once was so maybe we'll get some purchase there.

The back row head to head looks quite tasty.

[Oakboy]

The back row head to head looks quite tasty.

Were you thinking of the breakdown or the kick-chasing? It looks like being an untidy game so maybe there will be lots of turnovers.

[Puja]

No Albornez, no Oviedo are two surprises. They were both excellent Vs the Lions. The Toulouse lads aren't involved either and neither is Petti. That's not as strong as I expected them to be.

It's still a very strong side and they'll be a hell of a challenge, but I'm agreed with you - that's a XXIII that our XXIII can definitely beat. The key battles are Baxter and Heyes against the Argentine front row, and Spencer against his own inadequacies as an international. If we can win both of those, then we've got a really good chance.

I wonder how big an impact the weather will have been. England have effectively been doing hot weather training for the last few weeks and going to Argentina where the weather forecast for the match is 10^oC might give them a fitness advantage?

How is Ewels as a mauler? The French beat us up there.

Lineout will be interesting- presume Underhill will be the third jumper?

Maul's probably a big reason that Ewels is there, as it is a strength of his (plus power in the scrum if we're planning on attacking there).

Does TWillis not jump?

Puja

[Mikey Brown]

He does, but it’s not ideal when your third jumper is your best running option off a shortened lineout.

It’s got to be Curry if not. Underhill does jump for Bath and I don’t really know why because he’s awful at it.

[Danno]

T Willis goes up occasionally, so does Burry I think? I don't think we'll see much of either given the amount of time they've had to work on LO drills

[Banquo]

The Argentina back row looks tasty; always thought Isa mildly under-rate.....think he'll ...er....cash in.

[jngf]

I love a 6:2 bench me.

Muir over Murley I get, Muir could take to test rugby pretty solidly I suspect. Steward/Roebuck good. Slade bad, should be on the bench. Spencer over all is a better player than JVP in my view (JVP obviously has great potential) I'm glad he's getting another go. Atkinson at 12 fine but looks a boring, unthreatening midfield due to Slade's presence...

Agreed front five is probably the best available although I think I favour Rodd over Baxter. I'd have started Ted Hill at 6 personally (am I missing something? is he crocked?). Dombrandt pointless.

bloody forwards . I'd have thought the disruption in the last game we played would have warned shorton backs off.

Ted Hill, yes indeed. I was wondering who was missing.

I can understand BCurry/Underhill on the flanks, as they are the most experienced and proven test-quality operators. However, surely Hill is the player that you want in the 21 shirt in a 6:2 - get a game-changing point of difference onto the bench without having to worry about him (realistically) only covering one position? Dombrandt is just meh.

Slade...? I guess I understand it in terms of his experience and shepherding a very new and inexperienced side, and he does have a good game in him. Spencer over JVP is baffling, but there is the hope that he might come good and show even a modicum of his Bath form at some point.

We could've done worse, I guess.

Puja

What’s truly bizarre is that Sam Underhill has far more blindside flanker qualities than Ben Curry who as far as I can see is an out and out openside - almost like Swinehund Bejazzelled made this pick especially for our board to pick apart

[Mikey Brown]

Nope. Nobody except you cares.

Not trying to be rude. That’s just how it is.

As always - the only question is overall backrow balance and this is looking pretty good.

[francoisfou]

Argentina


1. VIVAS, Mayco (28 caps)
2. MONTOYA, Julián (105 caps) Captain
3. DELGADO, Pedro (2 caps)
4. PAULOS, Lucas (14 caps)
5. RUBIOLO, Pedro (20 caps)
6. MATERA, Pablo (109 caps) Vice-captain
7. GONZÁLEZ, Juan Martín (40 caps)
8. ISA, Facundo (51 caps)
9. BERTRANOU, Gonzalo (67 caps)
10. CARRERAS, Santiago (53 caps) Vice-captain
11. CORDERO, Santiago (54 caps)
12. PICCARDO, Justo (1 cap)
13. CINTI, Lucio (32 caps)
14. ISGRÓ, Rodrigo (7 caps)
15. ELIZALDE, Benjamín (0 caps)

FINISHERS

16. BERNASCONI, Bautista (0 caps)
17. GALLO, Thomas (35 caps)
18. CORIA MARCHETTI, Francisco (1 cap)
19. GRONDONA, Santiago (20 caps)
20. MORO, Joaquín (1 cap)
21. BENÍTEZ CRUZ, Simón (0 caps)
22. ROGER, Nicolás (0 caps)
23. MORONI, Matías (89 caps

Is Moro the new Tigers' signing?

[Which Tyler]

On the selection - and admitting a club bias is bound to play a part here.

Dan - Borthwick sees something in him, but it's not like there's a long list of clearly better hookers being ignored. I'd still have Langdon ahead of him
Ewels - gets a lot of grief here. He's never going to be a good international player, but I don't recall any absolute howlers from him - red cards aside (and that's a hell of an aside) I don't see who is available and ahead of him. In a side distinctly lacking experience at international level, I can see his 30 caps going a long way in his favour.
Spencer - Has failed at international level, but between him, JvP and Quirke... I'd have him ahead of Quirke on form, and ahead of JvP if this was a club game. But he's a starter or nothing. If he's in the 23, then he's in the starting XV, so if he's ahead of Quirke, then he's ahead of JvP by default.
Slade - a worse selection than Ewels, but with the same justifications. He's not going to panic at the intensity of international rugby, though with some of the howlers he has had for England I'm not sure that's saying much. I think I would actually be more nervous (but also more excited) about the idea of 2 uncapped players, than of 1 uncapped + Slade in the midfield.
Muir - he's one of a ranch of promising wingers. He's the oldest, but then he also took to 15s later in life. He's not one for 6 years time, but if he takes to it, could easily be one for 2 years time. All of the ranch of wingers in this group have their downsides, some it's handling, or positioning, defence or aerial skills; Muir's is longevity. I wouldn't say that any of OHC, Murley, Roebuck, Radwan, Muir, Eliott, PBB, Hendy, Ibitoye... He's probably got the 2 most well-rounded on the pitch.
Steward - next cab off the rank. Whilst I think we have better alternatives who also fit in better to play the same gameplan as Furbank, there's no denying that Steward is the next choice after the Wing Commander.


I'm not going to put up any defence whatsoever for having a bench with 6 forwards, none of whom are comfortable to play lock at club level; not even my half-hearted, "Well, the other guy isn't TOO much better than the selected" above


Tactically - Borthwick is yet to excite me, or show me that he was the right man for the job 2 years ago. Whilst he did enough in the RWC23 to get to this point, I don't think I'd be renewing his contract from here if I were the RFU. But all of that is a "I wouldn't start from here" - which isn't terribly useful.
Just having a quick look, and even with the good results in this year's 6N, he's up to 53% win ratio, sitting between Andy Robinson and Brian Ashton in the table

[Banquo]

Nope. Nobody except you cares.

Not trying to be rude. That’s just how it is.

As always - the only question is overall backrow balance and this is looking pretty good.

If I did care, I'd suggest its merely that Underhill will pack down at openside come scrum time to put his mad tackling pressure on the 10. As with t'other Curry and Underhill they mixed and matched roles. As the french often do with left and right.

[jngf]

Nope. Nobody except you cares.

Not trying to be rude. That’s just how it is.

As always - the only question is overall backrow balance and this is looking pretty good.

If I did care, I'd suggest its merely that Underhill will pack down at openside come scrum time to put his mad tackling pressure on the 10. As with t'other Curry and Underhill they mixed and matched roles. As the french often do with left and right.

I’m sure you really do deep down the thing is Ben Curry has quite a different skillset and playing strengths from that of his twin and picking him at blindside ahead of Ted Hill or CCS is a legitmate point of discussion imo

[Mikey Brown]

I thought you were just going on about which numbers they’re wearing, which as Banquo says is only important in certain moments.

If Willis didn’t offer that ballast, tight carrying and a lineout option I might be concerned about this pairing, but he does.

[Banquo]

Nope. Nobody except you cares.

Not trying to be rude. That’s just how it is.

As always - the only question is overall backrow balance and this is looking pretty good.

If I did care, I'd suggest its merely that Underhill will pack down at openside come scrum time to put his mad tackling pressure on the 10. As with t'other Curry and Underhill they mixed and matched roles. As the french often do with left and right.

I’m sure you really do deep down the thing is Ben Curry has quite a different skillset and playing strengths from that of his twin and picking him at blindside ahead of Ted Hill or CCS is a legitmate point of discussion imo

Not if you are saying Underhill has blindside skills too, and as before a mix and match is what many sides do; the legitimate question is do the skills of B Curry, Underhill and T Willis complement each other and make for balance. The numbers do mean a lot less than they used to, and openside/blindside is short hand for a skill sets lumped into old pigeonholes. That said, I'd like to have seen Hill there for his lineout and his gas- with Willis's close work and Underhill's stop em dead, that'd look a tidy combo.

[Scrumhead]

Mikey beat me to it.

As I see it, we’re picking two opensides as a tactical preference. I think it’s more about the intended game plan than about who is packing down at 6 or 7.

To put it another way, it suggests we’re prioritising the breakdown and speed to the ruck rather than having an extra lineout forward.

@jngf you’re talking about Hill like he’s a dirty work type of 6. He’s not. He does a lot work in the wide channels and isn’t a notably good tight carrier.

I’d have been tempted to go with CCS at 6 but I’m fine with the flank pairing. It’s least concerning part of this selection.

[jngf]

If I did care, I'd suggest its merely that Underhill will pack down at openside come scrum time to put his mad tackling pressure on the 10. As with t'other Curry and Underhill they mixed and matched roles. As the french often do with left and right.

I’m sure you really do deep down the thing is Ben Curry has quite a different skillset and playing strengths from that of his twin and picking him at blindside ahead of Ted Hill or CCS is a legitmate point of discussion imo

Not if you are saying Underhill has blindside skills too, and as before a mix and match is what many sides do; the legitimate question is do the skills of B Curry, Underhill and T Willis complement each other and make for balance. The numbers do mean a lot less than they used to, and openside/blindside is short hand for a skill sets lumped into old pigeonholes. That said, I'd like to have seen Hill there for his lineout and his gas- with Willis's close work and Underhill's stop em dead, that'd look a tidy combo.

Banquo - you’re not going to like this but I think we may be in complete agreement this feels very odd and I hope there can be a return to normal service very soon!

[Banquo]

I’m sure you really do deep down the thing is Ben Curry has quite a different skillset and playing strengths from that of his twin and picking him at blindside ahead of Ted Hill or CCS is a legitmate point of discussion imo

Not if you are saying Underhill has blindside skills too, and as before a mix and match is what many sides do; the legitimate question is do the skills of B Curry, Underhill and T Willis complement each other and make for balance. The numbers do mean a lot less than they used to, and openside/blindside is short hand for a skill sets lumped into old pigeonholes. That said, I'd like to have seen Hill there for his lineout and his gas- with Willis's close work and Underhill's stop em dead, that'd look a tidy combo.

Banquo - you’re not going to like this but I think we may be in complete agreement this feels very odd and I hope their can be a return to normal service very soon!

dear god, I need a lie down and a hard look at myself

[Which Tyler]

Not if you are saying Underhill has blindside skills too, and as before a mix and match is what many sides do; the legitimate question is do the skills of B Curry, Underhill and T Willis complement each other and make for balance. The numbers do mean a lot less than they used to, and openside/blindside is short hand for a skill sets lumped into old pigeonholes. That said, I'd like to have seen Hill there for his lineout and his gas- with Willis's close work and Underhill's stop em dead, that'd look a tidy combo.