Cameo wrote: ↑Fri Nov 14, 2025 9:52 pm
Slightly mixed feelings about this. Starting team is good (though not quite what I would have picked). Bench looks a bit funny. If we are going to have two backrow, are Bayliss and Fagerson really the best combo. I struggle slightly to see Bayliss in our top 23 to be honest, though that might be a bit of a blindspot for me. Onyeama-Christie would have offered something a little different. Funny too how Ritchie is now completely on the outside when he was possibly our beat player in the 6 Nations.
Seems a bit of a luxury to have a straight wing on the bench too but I can be on board with that as long as he comes on with plenty of time to go. He's not the kind of player to come on and get 10 carries in 10 minutes.
Interesting changes from Argentina. I suspect they'll be looking to shore up their midfield defence.
Agree with all of that. I’ve never really liked the idea of having a player run around at 6 all game and then have to be a lock for 20 minutes.
The second rows were very good last week, but risking that just to get Bayliss in the squad seems odd. I know he scored that wonder try a while back, but I just don’t really see it with him.
I hope Russell and Darge really are fully fit. Shame not to see Dobie get a start, but maybe that combo works better this way round.
How we can get to the top 6 before the RWC draw. Today’s results all went our way but the biggest stumbling block has to be our game against Argentina tomorrow. Can we really win it by 16+ ? I doubt it, but I hope we have a decent crack at it.
A good half overall, but could well have been further ahead with a bit better luck or execution. Argentina will probably be saying they left a few out there too though.
That was genuinely abysmal. We were 21-0 up after 54 minutes and managed to concede 33 points in the next 25 minutes. Some very unhappy punters at Murrayfield today. If this was football there would be demonstrations outside the ground and calls for mass sackings but this is rugby so we’ll just shrug our shoulders and move on.
My big fear is we’re going end up where Wales are, but without going through the years when they were excellent and won championships.
I’ve never been one to jump on the #ToonyOut bandwagon but we must be at the point now where the SRU must consider replacing him.
It was unfortunate to lose White before the game. I don’t feel Dobie had his best game. Some of his kicks were too long and gave the Pumas too much time on the ball.
A 5:3 bench was not the correct choice and we should have stuck with a 6:2. This became evident at the early loss of Brown. Even if we didn’t lose him I still think the lack of bench lock would have been an issue.
Yes Russell’s pass was a catalyst for the Puma’s 12 point period but we should have been able to get a hold of the game and close it out.
Not many positives, Ashman hitting his jumpers and being a menace in the loose. Front row in general having scrum dominance.
paddy no 11 wrote: ↑Sun Nov 16, 2025 9:50 pm
What's townsends contract due to end?
Carreras was incredible when he came on
Ashman has decided he's an incredible player and is just going for it.......fair play to him
I think Townsend’s contract is until the end of the RWC.
Ashman has made an incredible improvement in his play. I’ve been the first to criticise him, particularly for very poor lineout throwing, for both Edinburgh and Scotland but fair play to him, he’s been one of the few bright spots.
If 2/5 in the 6 Nations "isn't good enough" for the SRU then how can 33-24 from 21-0 up be accepted by them, it was a total collapse and that's 100% on Gregor Townsend.
Journalists, pundits and fans have had just about ENOUGH of this now so the SRU need to act before it's too late.
Gregor said himself that the chance to coach at another world cup was the reason he stayed on but even he must know, with every loss that is looking increasingly unlikely so just have the balls to resign and stop being so bloody ignorant!
I'm not quite in the Toony out camp but can see why others are and wouldn't be angry if that is what they decide to do. What I do think is needed is some fundamental reassessment of a few things. We have not suddenly become a bad team 50 mins into today's game, but we do have persistent issues.
First - Use of the bench. What is going on? There are questions over who should be on the bench, but whoever is there we shouldn't be in a position where two of them are unused and two come on with ten to go. It's just a waste.
Second - Kinghorn. I don't want to pick on him too much and he hasn't been all bad, but I think it is time to try Jordan at fullback. Kinghorn just looks indecisive at the moment and is making mistakes without really trying much. Jordan's directness and toughness might add something and Kinghorn may be a bench option you actually want to bring on.
Third - Backrow. Been beating this drum for a little while. All good players but I don't think we are getting enough from them. Once Argentina started coming back, they made ground so easily and we really needed a couple of big moments (I know Brace wasn't keen on jackallers but still). I would like to us start the 6N with a backrow of Brown, AOC or Ritchie, and Dempsey. I'd also like us to be fast tracking McConnell and Dempsey.
Fourth - Second row. We've all said it but we need to move on from Gilchrist. He has been fine, but we have options now and he won't be getting any better. To be honest, I'd say similar about his place at Edinburgh.
Fifth - Nine. This one is more controversial but I would be starting Dobie from now. He didn't have his very best game, but when we were going well he was really adding sonething. If White is on the bench, I think that is a good one two.
I suppose my point is that if we keep Townsend, it needs to be on the basis that we can't just rely on building experience amongst the same team - we need to see changes. The good thing is we have some promising players coming through who really could make a difference.
The weird thing is I still consider myself to be living through some of the good years of Scottish rugby! I just fear not making the most of it then regressing to the early 2000s.
Cameo wrote: ↑Mon Nov 17, 2025 12:43 am
So, that was bad.
I'm not quite in the Toony out camp but can see why others are and wouldn't be angry if that is what they decide to do. What I do think is needed is some fundamental reassessment of a few things. We have not suddenly become a bad team 50 mins into today's game, but we do have persistent issues.
First - Use of the bench. What is going on? There are questions over who should be on the bench, but whoever is there we shouldn't be in a position where two of them are unused and two come on with ten to go. It's just a waste.
Second - Kinghorn. I don't want to pick on him too much and he hasn't been all bad, but I think it is time to try Jordan at fullback. Kinghorn just looks indecisive at the moment and is making mistakes without really trying much. Jordan's directness and toughness might add something and Kinghorn may be a bench option you actually want to bring on.
Third - Backrow. Been beating this drum for a little while. All good players but I don't think we are getting enough from them. Once Argentina started coming back, they made ground so easily and we really needed a couple of big moments (I know Brace wasn't keen on jackallers but still). I would like to us start the 6N with a backrow of Brown, AOC or Ritchie, and Dempsey. I'd also like us to be fast tracking McConnell and Dempsey.
Fourth - Second row. We've all said it but we need to move on from Gilchrist. He has been fine, but we have options now and he won't be getting any better. To be honest, I'd say similar about his place at Edinburgh.
Fifth - Nine. This one is more controversial but I would be starting Dobie from now. He didn't have his very best game, but when we were going well he was really adding sonething. If White is on the bench, I think that is a good one two.
I suppose my point is that if we keep Townsend, it needs to be on the basis that we can't just rely on building experience amongst the same team - we need to see changes. The good thing is we have some promising players coming through who really could make a difference.
The weird thing is I still consider myself to be living through some of the good years of Scottish rugby! I just fear not making the most of it then regressing to the early 2000s.
I agree a lot of those could be upgraded, but I struggle to see that preventing what we’ve seen yesterday and what we’ve seen over and over when the pressure has been on. There has to be something more fundamental to it than just swapping a few players in and out.
Townsend’s use of the bench is poor, both in timing and balance, and he is inconsistent with blooding new players, but there has to be a broader reason so many games are slipping away in this fashion.
The bench selection was so poor, many of us just knew it would come back to bite us on the bum and it duly did. No lock cover, the alleged cover started and lasted 7 mins. So we end up with Gilco struggling to raise a jog in the last quarter. Schoeman not far behind Gilco but played 80mins - just why when we have good sub on the bench?
Duhan covers one position. And I mean one, don't think he can even play both wings. Pointless selection - he either starts or he is out, and he should not have started
Scotland now have what I will call the Edinburgh Rugby disease. The coach picks favourites, irrespective of form or future needs. Complacency as there is no real competition for a starting or squad berth.
No clue how to pick and use a bench, doesn't really get it now really is a 23 man team
And that Argentine team will only get better, we have a few in or approaching the twilight years, Arg on average about 2 years a man younger. They know where they are going with those players, we are now back to long serving conservative coaching with an aging group
It was so much easier to blame Them. It was bleakly depressing to think They were Us. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
Yeah, I was about to share that. There really is something odd about our bench use. Am I right that McBeth, Horne, and Jordan didn't come on at all and Bayliss and Duhan only come on with ten minutes to go? Given Fagerson can on after a few minutes and Millar Mills was on before half time, that means that only Turner can on as any kind of impact player.
I'd love to know the thinking. Has Townsend formed the view that we are poor in the last 25 because the subs aren't up to it and therefore he doesn't want to use them? That's not sustainable if so. You need some fresh energy.
Also, I said it before the game and stand by it, if you are going to have Duhan on the bench you need to give him 30 minutes so there's a good chance you can get him into space. As a ten minute 'go get involved' option, I'd prefer Simon Webster to be honest.
I like Townsend but there needs to be some kind of shakeup.
It was so much easier to blame Them. It was bleakly depressing to think They were Us. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
The team's in a no win situation for this one. Nothing they can do will win that faith back until the 6N.
I'd be inclined to go as strong as possible other than where there are niggles or someone has played all three.
I'd go something like:
1. Schoeman (how we would love to have Venter available to us).
2. Ashman
3. Fagerson (I would have given Rae another start but he's injured).
4. Cummings
5. Williamson
6. Ritchie
7. Onyeama Christie
8. Dempsey (unless he needs a break)
9. Dobie
10. Russell (if properly fit)
11. Steyn (Graham was great but has played three and has a history of injuries)
12. Tuipolutu (presume he will want to play this one anyway)
13. Hutchison (I think he has done enough to be backup 13 and don't see why we need to rest him)
14. VDM
15. Jordan
16. McBeth (to come on by 55)
17. Harrison (Ditto - Turner doesn't seem to have offered anything - he should prove himself again at Harlequins)
18. Fin Richardson (Ditto but more to not risk Zander)
19. Sykes or Samuel
20. Bradbury
21. McConnell (won't be but I'd like it - if not maybe another back - I'm over Bayliss, a bit down on Fagerson at the moment, and don't really see Darge as a bench player)
22. White
23. Kinghorn
I have noted that I want the front row on earlier - that really applies to all the subs. This weekend is unlikely to be a great test of it, but we need to start seeing the bench as providing impact.
I’m having difficulty getting any enthusiasm for this match after last week. I have a season ticket so I’ll be going but it’s just a big meh at the moment. I’d be inclined to rest Russell this week, he’s carrying an injury and we know what he can do. Maybe give Burke a run. Dobie didn’t have a great game but I’d like him to play again to give him the chance to show what he can do in an international match. VDM only plays 11 (which is why he’s a poor replacement) but Steyn would be fine at 14. I would definitely want to see a 2nd row other than Gilchrist starting. Time to move on.
It’s unfair to say that in lieu of freshening up the coaching staff at the last minute we need to freshen up the team itself, but what other option is there?
And what does a Scottish bench full of impact look like? How do we achieve this without encouraging pundits to keep using the term “bomb squad” even more than they already are?
It’s hard to rotate any of the impactful front rows out to the bench, especially if Rae is now injured, but give some new locks and Bradbury a chance maybe?
We know Cummings and Dempsey on the bench could at least add some impetus. Someone like Dobie, Russell or Kinghorn from the bench who can add a bit of spark, but realistically dropping all 3 to the bench won’t happen.
I wouldn’t mind seeing a backrow of Brown, Darge/Ritchie and Bradbury. 6:2 is a more realistic option with Doobie on the bench (as much as I generally dislike it) so maybe AOC and Dempsey as 2 backrows on the bench would work well. Or give Brown a rest and give AOC a run at 6.
A bunch of guys coming on and turning the screw against Tonga is unlikely to mean much on its own, but Townsend has to start showing some understanding of how to impact a game late on.
Gregor Brown is unavailable after concussion last week.
Tonga are poor. What is the point of fielding our best available, what would we learn? Only that Townsend is feeling the heat.
The plan for this game surely was to get guys with little to no international experience out there.
If he goes full on and we win by less than 40 it's a very poor look.
