New and Improved EPS Watch/Player Form Thread

[Oakboy]

Now, we need to define 'proven' or whatever . . . . Most of us are relatively happy with the centre potential from this point but the very fact that we are discussing our own 'favourite' selection pairings indicates that no single player yet owns either the 12 or 13 shirt. None have current clear credibility ahead of their rivals. SB has to back someone rather than someone else. BUT, for once, all candidates look like they might have decent ceilings.

I assume all HCs have their own way of making such choices. Maybe, SB will start with FH and assess how to build from there. I have reservations about Ford's defensive vulnerability and how that effects centre selection but SB appears to accept the 'pros/cons' position. For the 6N, it makes sense to me to pick the Saints players but I can see a case for Ford + the Bath pairing.

I'd have Atkinson 3rd in the 12 rankings but others seem hooked on what he offers to the extent of ignoring club connections. I suppose, like Dingwall, he IS 1st choice for his club.

[Scrumhead]

Lawrence has more poor games than good, imo, albeit was a step up on his mean in the AIs. I’ll pass judgement on Marchant when I’ve seen him play a few test matches.

Eh? Marchant’s already had several good games for England.

Your definition of ‘proven’ seems very different to mine. Lawrence and Slade are both hit and miss but to suggest they’re unproven is exceptionally harsh IMO. Dingwall, Ojomoh, Atkinson and Joseph are unproven but that’s what I’d expect for guys with a handful of caps. Arguably Ojomoh and Atkinson should have been involved sooner, but not by that much.

It’s an area that needs to be prioritised but lack of experience doesn’t necessarily mean a player isn’t or can’t be perfectly good enough.

Again, give me the yardstick we’re measuring this by? How many ‘proven’ centres do most countries have? For example, France’s centres are mostly pretty inexperienced. Fickou is the exception. Ireland have Aki, Henshaw (who are both past their best), Ringrose and McCloskey (who’s also 33) then a huge drop off. NZ have Jordie Barrett, Ioane and Leinert-Brown then a big drop off in experience/ability.

Genuinely, I’m looking around at the age profile and quality of other squads and feeling very happy about ours.

Marchant hasn’t played for England in years so I’m reserving judgement until I’ve seen him play some test rugby again.

Proven to me is definitely having more than 7, 2 & 2 caps as Dingers, Atkinson and Ojomoh have. Or 2 caps at OC as Freeman has. Not sure how that’s even arguable. Perhaps if Dingwall had been good to excellent in all 7 caps but he’s been poor to good, imo.

In that case, me too. It sounded like you were suggesting that Lawrence and Slade are also unproven.

Marchant will need to earn his spot, but it’s worth remembering that he was a regular starter for Borthwick when he was available. If the move to Sale works out well, I think he could genuinely challenge for the 13 shirt.

Now, we need to define 'proven' or whatever . . . . Most of us are relatively happy with the centre potential from this point but the very fact that we are discussing our own 'favourite' selection pairings indicates that no single player yet owns either the 12 or 13 shirt. None have current clear credibility ahead of their rivals. SB has to back someone rather than someone else. BUT, for once, all candidates look like they might have decent ceilings.

I assume all HCs have their own way of making such choices. Maybe, SB will start with FH and assess how to build from there. I have reservations about Ford's defensive vulnerability and how that effects centre selection but SB appears to accept the 'pros/cons' position. For the 6N, it makes sense to me to pick the Saints players but I can see a case for Ford + the Bath pairing.

I'd have Atkinson 3rd in the 12 rankings but others seem hooked on what he offers to the extent of ignoring club connections. I suppose, like Dingwall, he IS 1st choice for his club.

Again - all fair points. I favour Atkinson because I think he brings the best blend of skill and physicality and his ability to take the ball to the line and offload is such a useful asset. However, I can also see the value of an Ojomoh and Lawrence pairing. I don’t that applies to Dingwall and Freeman unless they become a regular centre partnership. Anyway - we need to pick a combo and back it rather than changing it all the time. I know a lot of that has been out of Borthwick’s hands, but we need to find a way to make it happen.

[Mikey Brown]

I know I’ve said this before but just imagine if Smith/Atkinson/Lawrence had been an established Prem midfield. Must be galling for Worcester fans.

[Oakboy]

Again - all fair points. I favour Atkinson because I think he brings the best blend of skill and physicality and his ability to take the ball to the line and offload is such a useful asset. However, I can also see the value of an Ojomoh and Lawrence pairing. I don’t that applies to Dingwall and Freeman unless they become a regular centre partnership. Anyway - we need to pick a combo and back it rather than changing it all the time. I know a lot of that has been out of Borthwick’s hands, but we need to find a way to make it happen.

I started by not rating Dingwall particularly but he began to look comfortable before injury. Setting him outside Mitchell/Fin with the ability to get the best out of Freeman at 13 seems the shortest route to cohesion especially with Furbank at FB.

In terms of liking individual skill sets and gambling on ceilings, I'd pick Marcus, Ojomoh and Freeman at 10, 12, 13.

I'm least impressed by Atkinson and Lawrence but I can see merit in both. Maybe, if selected they could provide the consistency over a period that I think is missing based on performances so far.

What all that adds up to is that nobody is there yet but any of them could be. At the very least they should keep Farrell out - hopefully.

[p/d]

I know I’ve said this before but just imagine if Smith/Atkinson/Lawrence had been an established Prem midfield. Must be galling for Worcester fans.

Indeed Mikey. Not forgetting Ted Hill at 11

[Scrumhead]

Again - all fair points. I favour Atkinson because I think he brings the best blend of skill and physicality and his ability to take the ball to the line and offload is such a useful asset. However, I can also see the value of an Ojomoh and Lawrence pairing. I don’t that applies to Dingwall and Freeman unless they become a regular centre partnership. Anyway - we need to pick a combo and back it rather than changing it all the time. I know a lot of that has been out of Borthwick’s hands, but we need to find a way to make it happen.

I started by not rating Dingwall particularly but he began to look comfortable before injury. Setting him outside Mitchell/Fin with the ability to get the best out of Freeman at 13 seems the shortest route to cohesion especially with Furbank at FB.

In terms of liking individual skill sets and gambling on ceilings, I'd pick Marcus, Ojomoh and Freeman at 10, 12, 13.

I'm least impressed by Atkinson and Lawrence but I can see merit in both. Maybe, if selected they could provide the consistency over a period that I think is missing based on performances so far.

What all that adds up to is that nobody is there yet but any of them could be. At the very least they should keep Farrell out - hopefully.

Surely that depends on how Saints line up though. If the basis of the argument for that selection is midfield ‘cohesion’ that doesn’t really hold water if Freeman is on the wing (which seems likely).

I guess it depends how much they value the Dingwall/Hutchinson partnership (which has been very good for them).

OTOH, Furbank’s return from injury and Todaro’s emergence might help Freeman’s case for moving into midfield. Saints then have the option of Sleightholme, Todaro, Hendy or Ramm on the wing which would give Freeman more of an opportunity to play at 13.

[Which Tyler]

Will Stuart coming off with a concerning injury after a scrum collapses on top of him.

Surgical boot & crutches come out after the physios have a proper look.
His face suggests it's not precautionary

[Captainhaircut]

Ruptured Achilles. Fucks sake. That’ll see him likely miss this summer even and a terrible injury for a prop in general.

AOF is out for weeks already. Fasogbon and Sela not ready. We go to Davison I guess?

[Scrumhead]

Hmm … not good news at all. Particularly following AOF’s injury.

Davison might get the nod. However, I think Borthwick’s more likely to roll the dice on the younger props. Realistically they’re not ready, but we’d gain more from building their experience than bring in in Davison who’s unlikely to be an option come RWC time.

[twitchy]

Bat signal up for dan cole.

[Puja]

Ruptured Achilles. Fucks sake. That’ll see him likely miss this summer even and a terrible injury for a prop in general.

AOF is out for weeks already. Fasogbon and Sela not ready. We go to Davison I guess?

Why would you say Fasogbon's not ready?

Puja

[Captainhaircut]

Ruptured Achilles. Fucks sake. That’ll see him likely miss this summer even and a terrible injury for a prop in general.

AOF is out for weeks already. Fasogbon and Sela not ready. We go to Davison I guess?

Why would you say Fasogbon's not ready?

Puja

Think we are definitely seeing a bit of second season syndrome with him. Don’t feel like he’s particularly impacting in the loose and not showing up as well at scrum time. Thought he struggled in the A game against NZ.

Suppose we want game time in him prior to World Cup so guess it may be a route we go down.

[fivepointer]

Bad news about Stuart.

AOF should be available for the 6Ns which doesnt start until February. Fasogbon is next in line and i wouldnt be averse to seeing him brought in. Sela may get some game time with Stuart out.

Suddenly Joe Heyes fitness will be uppermost in SB's mind.

[Beasties]

Bad news about Stuart.

AOF should be available for the 6Ns which doesnt start until February. Fasogbon is next in line and i wouldnt be averse to seeing him brought in. Sela may get some game time with Stuart out.

Suddenly Joe Heyes fitness will be uppermost in SB's mind.

Thankful that Heyes has really stepped up now.
Stuart will be a big miss though. We’ll have to see how his recovery goes because he took a dog’s age to recover properly from his last long-term out.

[FKAS]

Ruptured Achilles. Fucks sake. That’ll see him likely miss this summer even and a terrible injury for a prop in general.

AOF is out for weeks already. Fasogbon and Sela not ready. We go to Davison I guess?

Why would you say Fasogbon's not ready?

Puja

Think we are definitely seeing a bit of second season syndrome with him. Don’t feel like he’s particularly impacting in the loose and not showing up as well at scrum time. Thought he struggled in the A game against NZ.

Suppose we want game time in him prior to World Cup so guess it may be a route we go down.

I think it's important to remember Fasogbon is 21 and in a Glaws pack that's injury ravaged, playing in the wrong areas of the field and as a team struggling badly. Most young props go through growth periods, AOF is suffering similarly but has a much better side around him.

[Scrumhead]

Yes, that’s a fair assessment.

Although, it’ll be interesting to see whether Bath turn to Sela or Griffin in Stuart’s absence. Fasogbon’s main advantage over Sela has been game time. If Sela steps in for Stuart at club level, he’ll have a better opportunity to press his case.

[Which Tyler]

At Bath, I think that Sela is seen as the greater potential (and, of course, more likely to stay at the club).
For the rest of this season, I'm hoping we don't look to recruit an injury replacement*. We've still got TdT to start with, and I suspect we'll swap the other two around for the other shirt, depending on opposition and game-plan.
There's also Verden kicking around as 4th choice - but he's there to play PRC
I get the impression that Griffin is the stronger scrummager, whilst Sela is the better rugby player - though I'm not qualified to make any judgement of my own.

* It's unknown whether we have any injury dispensation left from Chris Harris, or if Bailey's departure paid for CH - either way though, we'll have some budget, though it won't go as far for THPs.


I've seen an interesting speculation elsewhere (NB: speculation, not rumour) that we might ask Kyle Sinckler if he fancies half a season.
It's known (or possibly, "widely believed") that he wants to make a bid for RWC27, which would mean returning to England this summer - which still wouldn't make him eligible for the 6N - so it may be that there's a will and there's a way - especially if Borthwick is interested.

[Oakboy]

I've seen an interesting speculation elsewhere (NB: speculation, not rumour) that we might ask Kyle Sinckler if he fancies half a season.
It's known (or possibly, "widely believed") that he wants to make a bid for RWC27, which would mean returning to England this summer - which still wouldn't make him eligible for the 6N - so it may be that there's a will and there's a way - especially if Borthwick is interested.

SB can call up France-based players in exceptional circumstances I believe. That gives him scope in this case if he wishes, I'd suggest. Would anyone at the RFU oppose him if he stated a concern of injuring the youngsters if he over-committed them too early?

[Captainhaircut]

Hugh Tizard getting a lot of positive chat following the weekend. Apparently Sarries had him put on a lot of timber last year which they have admitted didn’t work and he’s dropped 10kg and now playing better than ever. Interesting that he wasn’t in the A squad having been in them before but possible they just wanted a look at some different players like Sodeke and Bamber.

If Tizard could realise the potential he showed pre Sarries move, he could become a real option as a tight lock for us.

[fivepointer]

Tizard has never impressed me since he moved to Saracens. He's 25 so its not too late to blossom but there might be bet6ter options.

[Mikey Brown]

Tizard has never impressed me since he moved to Saracens. He's 25 so its not too late to blossom but there might be bet6ter options.

Makes sense if they were trying to turn him in to another Will Skelton.

He’s a big powerful lad, but his USP I always thought was that Launchbury thing of being a big lump but somehow always being on the shoulder or popping up where you wouldn’t expect a second row to reach.

I still resent his Saracens move but it would be great if England can get something out of him, especially with the long-term question marks over Martin.

Now sure how it works exactly with them both being at the same club.

[Puja]

I've seen an interesting speculation elsewhere (NB: speculation, not rumour) that we might ask Kyle Sinckler if he fancies half a season.
It's known (or possibly, "widely believed") that he wants to make a bid for RWC27, which would mean returning to England this summer - which still wouldn't make him eligible for the 6N - so it may be that there's a will and there's a way - especially if Borthwick is interested.

SB can call up France-based players in exceptional circumstances I believe. That gives him scope in this case if he wishes, I'd suggest. Would anyone at the RFU oppose him if he stated a concern of injuring the youngsters if he over-committed them too early?

Technically speaking, he can, but it's only been invoked on one occasion and that was the collapse of the Bankruptcy Three. Even when there's been previous injury crises, it's never been under serious consideration, so I doubt it will here. I would agree that it'd be a stupid risk to involve Sela given his inexperience*, but Fasogbon's the same age as AOF and has 28 top-level adult games (18 starts) under his belt, including 3 for England A, and has shown himself to be more than competent against international looseheads - I'd have absolutely no qualms having him on the bench behind Heyes.

Even if Heyes were to go down injured in January, I reckon Brandybuck would turn to Davison before even thinking about going to France and, if we wanted to be dogmatic about it, there is also the option of Harry Williams. Granted, I don't **want** either of those options, but I don't think we can say it's an exceptional circumstance worthy of breaking the rules (and a quick mod reminder, if this discussion goes into the merits or otherwise of those rules, I will turf it over here), if we've got two previously capped players that could be selected.

Puja

*In case anyone else wanted to know the exact numbers, he's on 8 (serious) adult games, just 3 starts (and tbh, one of those was Bath picking the 2nd string to lose to Treviso last year, so I'm not sure if that counts as a serious game). Not quite as bad as Wales picking Griffin to start for them before he'd started for Bath, but still far from ideal, especially with him only being 20.

[SixAndAHalf]

I've seen an interesting speculation elsewhere (NB: speculation, not rumour) that we might ask Kyle Sinckler if he fancies half a season.
It's known (or possibly, "widely believed") that he wants to make a bid for RWC27, which would mean returning to England this summer - which still wouldn't make him eligible for the 6N - so it may be that there's a will and there's a way - especially if Borthwick is interested.

SB can call up France-based players in exceptional circumstances I believe. That gives him scope in this case if he wishes, I'd suggest. Would anyone at the RFU oppose him if he stated a concern of injuring the youngsters if he over-committed them too early?

Technically speaking, he can, but it's only been invoked on one occasion and that was the collapse of the Bankruptcy Three. Even when there's been previous injury crises, it's never been under serious consideration, so I doubt it will here. I would agree that it'd be a stupid risk to involve Sela given his inexperience*, but Fasogbon's the same age as AOF and has 28 top-level adult games (18 starts) under his belt, including 3 for England A, and has shown himself to be more than competent against international looseheads - I'd have absolutely no qualms having him on the bench behind Heyes.

Even if Heyes were to go down injured in January, I reckon Brandybuck would turn to Davison before even thinking about going to France and, if we wanted to be dogmatic about it, there is also the option of Harry Williams. Granted, I don't **want** either of those options, but I don't think we can say it's an exceptional circumstance worthy of breaking the rules (and a quick mod reminder, if this discussion goes into the merits or otherwise of those rules, I will turf it over here), if we've got two previously capped players that could be selected.

Puja

*In case anyone else wanted to know the exact numbers, he's on 8 (serious) adult games, just 3 starts (and tbh, one of those was Bath picking the 2nd string to lose to Treviso last year, so I'm not sure if that counts as a serious game). Not quite as bad as Wales picking Griffin to start for them before he'd started for Bath, but still far from ideal, especially with him only being 20.

I wouldn't be averse to Sinckler coming back more generally given the current depth at tighthead. I believe someone mentioned previously that Newcastle should target the returning England players which I think is a great idea.

In the meantime (particularly with the AOF injury) I would be throwing Fasogbon in but I expect Borthers has seen something he needs him to work on.

[Puja]

I wouldn't be averse to Sinckler coming back more generally given the current depth at tighthead. I believe someone mentioned previously that Newcastle should target the returning England players which I think is a great idea.

In the meantime (particularly with the AOF injury) I would be throwing Fasogbon in but I expect Borthers has seen something he needs him to work on.

Oh, absolutely - if Sinckler comes back to the Premiership, it'd only be a good thing for England. There's no such thing as "too many tighthead prop options".

Not sure about if he'd go to Newcastle though. He's a very good player, but I don't know how valuable he'd be as a star amongst lesser lights - to my mind, he seems to be at his best when matched with other quality players, rather than when he's having to set the standards himself.

Puja

[Danno]

Tizard has never impressed me since he moved to Saracens. He's 25 so its not too late to blossom but there might be bet6ter options.

He's dead to me, fuck him