EGM

[Sandydragon]

Apparently, one of the Glamorgan regions is advising its clubs to call for an EGM.there was an article on this earlier today on the fail, and scrumV discussed it on their recent podcast.

It seems to be a response to the possible loss of the Ospreys,but could also be influenced by the attempts by the WRU to control the appointment of coaches at SRC clubs.

So at the recent AGM, none of the clubs raised any issues, but now self interest has kicked in.

According to ScrumV, the demand is that the cut from 4 to 3 be paused, one national academy be established and the replacement of the chairperson with someone who is set in welsh life.

The time to do this was at the AGM, and in my view if someone wants to change direction now, they need a properly costed plan. It would help if the WRU provided details on the financial position, outlining why four regions aren’t affordable. If the bit about the replacement chair being grounded in welsh life, that sounds a bit off to me. But this seems to be the amateur tail wagging the professional dog. Again.

[Son of Mathonwy]

If this stops the cut from 4 to 3, I'll take it.

NB according to the WRU's own consultation document, the 3-club model was the least 'feasible' of all models, which doesn't exactly inspire much confidence in their judgement or in the quality of the document.

Another bizarre point in the document is that the development teams were intended to have bettér funding than the teams are currently receiving. Seems like the WRU don't understand what a development team is or were setting dev team models up to fail.

[Sandydragon]

I agree it’s a farce. I’m not convinced that losing the region is the right option and I’d really like to understand the numbers better, so I can be convinced that financially it’s the only way forward.

But the clubs should have raised these concerns at the AGM. They didn’t and indeed the WRU stated at the AGM that the lack of challenge on their plans was a vote of confidence. The clubs, or some of them, are now making noise, which just demonstrates to me that the whole governance model is totally broken (if we don’t know that already).

[UKHamlet]

Losing a region is necessary at this point. We can't continue to fund four regions. We certainly can't afford to do so at a level that will make our regions competitive. It's a pity it has to be either the Scarlets or the Ospreys, both of which have been a bedrock of Welsh Rugby. Merging Cardiff with the Dragons, with games played in both Newport and Cardiff, would seem to make more sense. Personally, I would be delighted if they buried the Ospreys forever, preferably under the six million tons of the shit that gets pumped out on Fabian Way every day. But with my "What's best for Wales" hat on, that's neither feasible, nor desirable. The problem is, there has to be representation in the capital, the South East, and the South West. So, one of the two in the South West will have to go.

[Son of Mathonwy]

Sure, the earlier they raise problems, the better. But I'm grasping at straws here, better late than never.

[Son of Mathonwy]

Losing a region is necessary at this point. We can't continue to fund four regions. We certainly can't afford to do so at a level that will make our regions competitive. It's a pity it has to be either the Scarlets or the Ospreys, both of which have been a bedrock of Welsh Rugby. Merging Cardiff with the Dragons, with games played in both Newport and Cardiff, would seem to make more sense. Personally, I would be delighted if they buried the Ospreys forever, preferably under the six million tons of the shit that gets pumped out on Fabian Way every day. But with my "What's best for Wales" hat on, that's neither feasible, nor desirable. The problem is, there has to be representation in the capital, the South East, and the South West. So, one of the two in the South West will have to go.

The case has not been made why losing a region is necessary at this point (without - honestly - exploring different funding models).

Before the consultation the idea that there had to be a capital team plus a west and an east team had never been mentioned. Before then it was - and still is - clear that there are two west wales teams and two east wales. This reformulation which conveniently locks in Cardiff and the Dragons is bullshit.

We start from where we are, with the fans and the infrastructure built around 2 east and 2 west. It would make much more sense and be incredibly less destructive to move to a model with an elite and dev team in the west and the same in the east.

The damage from throwing a quarter of the fans under the bus and sacking the same share of the players will be immense. And won't the derbies be fun when there are only three teams? How about those outside the window internationals with far less players to choose from? Welsh rugby will be permanently diminished. And, to cap it all, keeping our worst team and scrapping our best or one of the better ones is village idiot stuff.

[UKHamlet]

Before the consultation the idea that there had to be a capital team plus a west and an east team had never been mentioned. Before then it was - and still is - clear that there are two west wales teams and two east wales. This reformulation which conveniently locks in Cardiff and the Dragons is bullshit.

It's clearly not bullshit. There aren't two West Wales teams, for a start. Swansea "likes" to think of itself as West Wales, but it isn't and never was. It's South Wales. West Wales begins at the Loughor. It's just part of the divisive mythos that has riven Welsh rugby. The idea that Welsh rugby could even look itself in the face without a capital city team is utter nonsense too. Cardiff has a history, is the best-supported and best-known of all the rugby teams in Wales. Christ, it invented the modern game. So, it goes without saying that if one club has to survive, it HAS to be Cardiff. Swansea should also survive on the grounds that it is the second city of Wales. Newport should survive because the catchment of the Gwent valleys is at least as big as Swansea. That leaves Llanelli, which has a long and proud history but lacks support, resources, and most importantly, potential. A merger between the two regions in the South West and the West is the logical and sensible conclusion, just as Neath had to give way to the Ospreys.

[UKHamlet]

Anyway, that said.

WRU to face seismic EGM as clubs meet threshold in bid to oust chairman
Welsh rugby faces more drama on the eve of the Six Nations, with an extraordinary general meeting now on the cards
The Welsh Rugby Union is set to face a shock extraordinary general meeting, with strong indications enough clubs have now expressed a desire to trigger the process.

Article continues below
The Central Glamorgan Rugby Union, which represents clubs in Neath, Port Talbot, Maesteg and Bridgend and is one of nine districts that help make up the WRU, recently sent out a letter to all clubs urging them to call an EGM. Many within the game are dismayed at the WRU's plans to reduce the number of professional clubs from four to three, claiming it has damaged Welsh rugby's reputation.

Article continues below
For an EGM to be called 10% of the 283 community clubs have to put in a request. WalesOnline has been told that this has been met. Central Glamorgan set up an email for clubs to respond and will now forward it onto the WRU.

Once the WRU board receives the request it must call the EGM within 21 days, where the clubs will vote on three motions.

The first motion is a vote of no confidence in WRU chair Richard Collier-Keywood and Professional Rugby Board chair Malcolm Wall. This needs a share of 50.1% of the votes to pass.

The second motion wants the WRU to hold elections for the four elected WRU council member board positions within 14 days after the EGM which again requires 50.1% of the votes to pass.

Article continues below
And the third motion wants to amend how the WRU district and council members are elected, but unlike the first two motions this requires a 75% share of the vote.

According to a letter from the Central Glamorgan Rugby Union, it has put forward alternative plans for the game in Wales.

These include:

Put an immediate hold on the plans to amend the structure of the Professional game, with a full review of WRU finances and organization structure to be undertaken to identify where money can be saved(Executive/Board Salaries, Consultants) to fully support the Professional, SRC and Community Game in Wales.
A Rugby Steering group to be set up within six weeks comprising of people from the Professional, SRC and Community Game, along with the business sector. This group (Male & Female) will be directed to advise on rugby-related matters and thus negates the need for expensive consultants.
A Central National Academy to be set up within three months to be totally responsible for the identification and development of talent for male and female players.
Except for the WRU CEO, WRU Chairperson and Professional Rugby Board Chairperson, no Directors (INED’s, WRU Council Members) should be paid.
The new appointed WRU chairperson and PRB chairperson should be immersed in Welsh culture and have a strong understanding of Welsh rugby and values and ideally be conversant in the Welsh language and live in Wales.
If the motions in the EGM pass then the future of Welsh rugby will be thrown into even more doubt.

Collier-Keywood was appointed as chair in July 2023 along with a new-look board.

But the Central Glamorgan Rugby Union believes change hasn't been sufficient and has consequently made its move. It said in a letter to clubs, it said: "This new structure of leadership within the WRU has been in place for more than two years.

"While we acknowledge that the situation on the back of Covid has been challenging, we're deeply concerned the current leadership have not been able to formulate and commence the delivery of a plan that sets our game in Wales on the right track to support the professional, SRC [Super Rygbi Cymru], female and community game.

"Instead, we see the meandering between different versions of a plan, causing chaos, confusion and uncertainty, spending extortionate amounts of money on external consultants, combined with the current board's inability to define and deliver a clear strategy for rugby in Wales.

Article continues below
"This is causing reputational damage to Welsh rugby across the world when we were once held in such high esteem."

It remains to be seen how strong the feeling is among clubs when the EGM is called. At the WRU's recent annual general meeting, not a single club challenged the executive on its plans for the professional game.

"The Welsh Rugby Union has a clear governance process in place for these sorts of matters, as set out in our constitution, and we will continue to engage fully with our member clubs to follow that process," said WRU chief executive Abi Tierney on Sunday.

Article continues below
"At this point, we have not received any formal trigger required to call an extraordinary general meeting under our articles of association.

"We published our plans for the future of the elite game in Wales at the end of October 2025, following an extensive consultation process.

"We are now focused on rolling out that plan and are working with key stakeholders to agree a consensus on the implementation.

Article continues below
"Detailed work is underway with the professional clubs, the United Rugby Championship and player representatives, and we remain committed to reaching consensus on the next steps in the coming weeks.

"We ask all stakeholders to work with us. We recognise that change is challenging, but it is essential for the long-term health of the game in Wales."

[Sandydragon]

Losing a region is necessary at this point. We can't continue to fund four regions. We certainly can't afford to do so at a level that will make our regions competitive. It's a pity it has to be either the Scarlets or the Ospreys, both of which have been a bedrock of Welsh Rugby. Merging Cardiff with the Dragons, with games played in both Newport and Cardiff, would seem to make more sense. Personally, I would be delighted if they buried the Ospreys forever, preferably under the six million tons of the shit that gets pumped out on Fabian Way every day. But with my "What's best for Wales" hat on, that's neither feasible, nor desirable. The problem is, there has to be representation in the capital, the South East, and the South West. So, one of the two in the South West will have to go.

The case has not been made why losing a region is necessary at this point (without - honestly - exploring different funding models).

Before the consultation the idea that there had to be a capital team plus a west and an east team had never been mentioned. Before then it was - and still is - clear that there are two west wales teams and two east wales. This reformulation which conveniently locks in Cardiff and the Dragons is bullshit.

We start from where we are, with the fans and the infrastructure built around 2 east and 2 west. It would make much more sense and be incredibly less destructive to move to a model with an elite and dev team in the west and the same in the east.

The damage from throwing a quarter of the fans under the bus and sacking the same share of the players will be immense. And won't the derbies be fun when there are only three teams? How about those outside the window internationals with far less players to choose from? Welsh rugby will be permanently diminished. And, to cap it all, keeping our worst team and scrapping our best or one of the better ones is village idiot stuff.

Two small points. The Dragons have a new legal agreement with the WRU which the Ospreys and Scarlets do not. Yes the WRU could shake the whole thing up and try to ignore it, but lawyers would still have a field day and that presents a risk.

Second point, this season ,the Dragons are a better side than the Scarlets. Since none of the regions have been consistently competitive for several years, I don’t think any of them can claim the high ground based on performance.

[Sandydragon]

Anyway, that said.

WRU to face seismic EGM as clubs meet threshold in bid to oust chairman
Welsh rugby faces more drama on the eve of the Six Nations, with an extraordinary general meeting now on the cards
The Welsh Rugby Union is set to face a shock extraordinary general meeting, with strong indications enough clubs have now expressed a desire to trigger the process.

Article continues below
The Central Glamorgan Rugby Union, which represents clubs in Neath, Port Talbot, Maesteg and Bridgend and is one of nine districts that help make up the WRU, recently sent out a letter to all clubs urging them to call an EGM. Many within the game are dismayed at the WRU's plans to reduce the number of professional clubs from four to three, claiming it has damaged Welsh rugby's reputation.

Article continues below
For an EGM to be called 10% of the 283 community clubs have to put in a request. WalesOnline has been told that this has been met. Central Glamorgan set up an email for clubs to respond and will now forward it onto the WRU.

Once the WRU board receives the request it must call the EGM within 21 days, where the clubs will vote on three motions.

The first motion is a vote of no confidence in WRU chair Richard Collier-Keywood and Professional Rugby Board chair Malcolm Wall. This needs a share of 50.1% of the votes to pass.

The second motion wants the WRU to hold elections for the four elected WRU council member board positions within 14 days after the EGM which again requires 50.1% of the votes to pass.

Article continues below
And the third motion wants to amend how the WRU district and council members are elected, but unlike the first two motions this requires a 75% share of the vote.

According to a letter from the Central Glamorgan Rugby Union, it has put forward alternative plans for the game in Wales.

These include:

Put an immediate hold on the plans to amend the structure of the Professional game, with a full review of WRU finances and organization structure to be undertaken to identify where money can be saved(Executive/Board Salaries, Consultants) to fully support the Professional, SRC and Community Game in Wales.
A Rugby Steering group to be set up within six weeks comprising of people from the Professional, SRC and Community Game, along with the business sector. This group (Male & Female) will be directed to advise on rugby-related matters and thus negates the need for expensive consultants.
A Central National Academy to be set up within three months to be totally responsible for the identification and development of talent for male and female players.
Except for the WRU CEO, WRU Chairperson and Professional Rugby Board Chairperson, no Directors (INED’s, WRU Council Members) should be paid.
The new appointed WRU chairperson and PRB chairperson should be immersed in Welsh culture and have a strong understanding of Welsh rugby and values and ideally be conversant in the Welsh language and live in Wales.
If the motions in the EGM pass then the future of Welsh rugby will be thrown into even more doubt.

Collier-Keywood was appointed as chair in July 2023 along with a new-look board.

But the Central Glamorgan Rugby Union believes change hasn't been sufficient and has consequently made its move. It said in a letter to clubs, it said: "This new structure of leadership within the WRU has been in place for more than two years.

"While we acknowledge that the situation on the back of Covid has been challenging, we're deeply concerned the current leadership have not been able to formulate and commence the delivery of a plan that sets our game in Wales on the right track to support the professional, SRC [Super Rygbi Cymru], female and community game.

"Instead, we see the meandering between different versions of a plan, causing chaos, confusion and uncertainty, spending extortionate amounts of money on external consultants, combined with the current board's inability to define and deliver a clear strategy for rugby in Wales.

Article continues below
"This is causing reputational damage to Welsh rugby across the world when we were once held in such high esteem."

It remains to be seen how strong the feeling is among clubs when the EGM is called. At the WRU's recent annual general meeting, not a single club challenged the executive on its plans for the professional game.

"The Welsh Rugby Union has a clear governance process in place for these sorts of matters, as set out in our constitution, and we will continue to engage fully with our member clubs to follow that process," said WRU chief executive Abi Tierney on Sunday.

Article continues below
"At this point, we have not received any formal trigger required to call an extraordinary general meeting under our articles of association.

"We published our plans for the future of the elite game in Wales at the end of October 2025, following an extensive consultation process.

"We are now focused on rolling out that plan and are working with key stakeholders to agree a consensus on the implementation.

Article continues below
"Detailed work is underway with the professional clubs, the United Rugby Championship and player representatives, and we remain committed to reaching consensus on the next steps in the coming weeks.

"We ask all stakeholders to work with us. We recognise that change is challenging, but it is essential for the long-term health of the game in Wales."

This feels like it’s been written with the help of Nigel Farages comms chief. Someone from Wales who understands the culture? That’s what got us into this bloody mess in the first place. I want someone competent to run the show, and whilst there’s some question marks over the current lot, they are streets ahead of the previous shambles.

The money saving bit also sounds like some provincial muppets who think that everything costs two farthings. Not paying the directors won’t solve the cash crisis that we allegedly have.

There are absolutely question marks over how the WRUnspends it’s only. But you have to pay for competent people sometimes.

[Son of Mathonwy]

Before the consultation the idea that there had to be a capital team plus a west and an east team had never been mentioned. Before then it was - and still is - clear that there are two west wales teams and two east wales. This reformulation which conveniently locks in Cardiff and the Dragons is bullshit.

It's clearly not bullshit. There aren't two West Wales teams, for a start. Swansea "likes" to think of itself as West Wales, but it isn't and never was. It's South Wales. West Wales begins at the Loughor. It's just part of the divisive mythos that has riven Welsh rugby. The idea that Welsh rugby could even look itself in the face without a capital city team is utter nonsense too. Cardiff has a history, is the best-supported and best-known of all the rugby teams in Wales. Christ, it invented the modern game. So, it goes without saying that if one club has to survive, it HAS to be Cardiff. Swansea should also survive on the grounds that it is the second city of Wales. Newport should survive because the catchment of the Gwent valleys is at least as big as Swansea. That leaves Llanelli, which has a long and proud history but lacks support, resources, and most importantly, potential. A merger between the two regions in the South West and the West is the logical and sensible conclusion, just as Neath had to give way to the Ospreys.

There are many ways Welsh regions could be defined and lines drown on a map. For 2 decades we've had the 2 west + 2 east model, as is commonly understood and referred to (east v west derbies etc). Sure, we could have a west+capital+east model, but we could also have a west+south+east model, just as plausibly, which wouldn't lock in any particular team. We could also have a west+south+capital+east or west+south west+south east+east or whatever.

What I'm saying is that it's nonsense to say that it has to be west+capital+east when that formulation was only invented a couple of months ago by the WRU in order to push their agenda.

I hear what you're saying about the history and potential of each of the regions. I don't want any of them to go. But it is a lot more than just what that region has the potential to support. The region also need to fulfil that potential. There have been 22 years since regionalization. I've looked at the results and picked out 1) how each team ranked with the other region and 2) how each team's points have compared with the league average.

For the whole 22 years, we have:
Ospreys: 11 first place, 1 last place, average pts 10% better than league mean
Scarlets: 8 first place, 1 last place, average pts 7% better than league mean
Cardiff: 3 first place, 3 last place, average pts 4% worse than league mean
Dragons: 0 first place, 17 last place, average pts 32% worse than league mean

For the last 5 years:
Ospreys: 2 first place, 0 last place, average pts 8% worse than league mean
Scarlets: 2 first place, 0 last place, average pts 14% worse than league mean
Cardiff: 1 first place, 0 last place, average pts 15% worse than league mean
Dragons: 0 first place, 5 last place, average pts 56% worse than league mean

So, looking at what has actually been achieved by the regions, whether over the whole time or the last 5 years, the Ospreys and the Scarlets have outperformed the others, and the Dragons, whatever the potential of their region, have been dramatically worse. So the plan is to get rid of one of the best and keep the worst.

[Son of Mathonwy]

Losing a region is necessary at this point. We can't continue to fund four regions. We certainly can't afford to do so at a level that will make our regions competitive. It's a pity it has to be either the Scarlets or the Ospreys, both of which have been a bedrock of Welsh Rugby. Merging Cardiff with the Dragons, with games played in both Newport and Cardiff, would seem to make more sense. Personally, I would be delighted if they buried the Ospreys forever, preferably under the six million tons of the shit that gets pumped out on Fabian Way every day. But with my "What's best for Wales" hat on, that's neither feasible, nor desirable. The problem is, there has to be representation in the capital, the South East, and the South West. So, one of the two in the South West will have to go.

The case has not been made why losing a region is necessary at this point (without - honestly - exploring different funding models).

Before the consultation the idea that there had to be a capital team plus a west and an east team had never been mentioned. Before then it was - and still is - clear that there are two west wales teams and two east wales. This reformulation which conveniently locks in Cardiff and the Dragons is bullshit.

We start from where we are, with the fans and the infrastructure built around 2 east and 2 west. It would make much more sense and be incredibly less destructive to move to a model with an elite and dev team in the west and the same in the east.

The damage from throwing a quarter of the fans under the bus and sacking the same share of the players will be immense. And won't the derbies be fun when there are only three teams? How about those outside the window internationals with far less players to choose from? Welsh rugby will be permanently diminished. And, to cap it all, keeping our worst team and scrapping our best or one of the better ones is village idiot stuff.

Two small points. The Dragons have a new legal agreement with the WRU which the Ospreys and Scarlets do not. Yes the WRU could shake the whole thing up and try to ignore it, but lawyers would still have a field day and that presents a risk.

Second point, this season ,the Dragons are a better side than the Scarlets. Since none of the regions have been consistently competitive for several years, I don’t think any of them can claim the high ground based on performance.

The contract could be a factor. Or not. Without seeing the contract or being a lawyer, who knows? But if it was a factor, it would be a terrible reason to make a permanent structural change to Welsh rugby.

See my previous post for a comparison of regional performances. The Dragons have been the last place Welsh team for the last 5 years (and 17 out of 22 years) and their league points scored have been dramatically worse than the other Welsh regions (in the last 5 years they've averaged 19 points/season vs about 40 for the other 3 teams). I agree they've had a great month and I hope they keep winning, but you can't judge a team halfway through a season (they're only 5 points ahead of the Scarlets).

One aside - it's worth noting that the regions have had considerably worse results in the last 4 years, since the 4 South African teams showed up. Not everything is an internal problem.

[newgalesurf]

These licenses should not look at on field performances (previous or current) as the main criteria as players can be moved. Should be on the financial viability of the bids and strength of the organization.

In this manner, the Dragons are one of the stronger regions.

But this is what the WRU want. Fans arguing over who is to get the axe. Hopefully the EGM can at least put a pause on this.

I would be OK with a tiered funding model based based on performance, e.g. a base funding level with bonuses for things like # international players, league/cup position.

[UKHamlet]

Before the consultation the idea that there had to be a capital team plus a west and an east team had never been mentioned. Before then it was - and still is - clear that there are two west wales teams and two east wales. This reformulation which conveniently locks in Cardiff and the Dragons is bullshit.

It's clearly not bullshit. There aren't two West Wales teams, for a start. Swansea "likes" to think of itself as West Wales, but it isn't and never was. It's South Wales. West Wales begins at the Loughor. It's just part of the divisive mythos that has riven Welsh rugby. The idea that Welsh rugby could even look itself in the face without a capital city team is utter nonsense too. Cardiff has a history, is the best-supported and best-known of all the rugby teams in Wales. Christ, it invented the modern game. So, it goes without saying that if one club has to survive, it HAS to be Cardiff. Swansea should also survive on the grounds that it is the second city of Wales. Newport should survive because the catchment of the Gwent valleys is at least as big as Swansea. That leaves Llanelli, which has a long and proud history but lacks support, resources, and most importantly, potential. A merger between the two regions in the South West and the West is the logical and sensible conclusion, just as Neath had to give way to the Ospreys.

There are many ways Welsh regions could be defined and lines drown on a map. For 2 decades we've had the 2 west + 2 east model, as is commonly understood and referred to (east v west derbies etc). Sure, we could have a west+capital+east model, but we could also have a west+south+east model, just as plausibly, which wouldn't lock in any particular team. We could also have a west+south+capital+east or west+south west+south east+east or whatever.

What I'm saying is that it's nonsense to say that it has to be west+capital+east when that formulation was only invented a couple of months ago by the WRU in order to push their agenda.

I hear what you're saying about the history and potential of each of the regions. I don't want any of them to go. But it is a lot more than just what that region has the potential to support. The region also need to fulfil that potential. There have been 22 years since regionalization. I've looked at the results and picked out 1) how each team ranked with the other region and 2) how each team's points have compared with the league average.

For the whole 22 years, we have:
Ospreys: 11 first place, 1 last place, average pts 10% better than league mean
Scarlets: 8 first place, 1 last place, average pts 7% better than league mean
Cardiff: 3 first place, 3 last place, average pts 4% worse than league mean
Dragons: 0 first place, 17 last place, average pts 32% worse than league mean

For the last 5 years:
Ospreys: 2 first place, 0 last place, average pts 8% worse than league mean
Scarlets: 2 first place, 0 last place, average pts 14% worse than league mean
Cardiff: 1 first place, 0 last place, average pts 15% worse than league mean
Dragons: 0 first place, 5 last place, average pts 56% worse than league mean

So, looking at what has actually been achieved by the regions, whether over the whole time or the last 5 years, the Ospreys and the Scarlets have outperformed the others, and the Dragons, whatever the potential of their region, have been dramatically worse. So the plan is to get rid of one of the best and keep the worst.

And European results?

[Son of Mathonwy]

It's clearly not bullshit. There aren't two West Wales teams, for a start. Swansea "likes" to think of itself as West Wales, but it isn't and never was. It's South Wales. West Wales begins at the Loughor. It's just part of the divisive mythos that has riven Welsh rugby. The idea that Welsh rugby could even look itself in the face without a capital city team is utter nonsense too. Cardiff has a history, is the best-supported and best-known of all the rugby teams in Wales. Christ, it invented the modern game. So, it goes without saying that if one club has to survive, it HAS to be Cardiff. Swansea should also survive on the grounds that it is the second city of Wales. Newport should survive because the catchment of the Gwent valleys is at least as big as Swansea. That leaves Llanelli, which has a long and proud history but lacks support, resources, and most importantly, potential. A merger between the two regions in the South West and the West is the logical and sensible conclusion, just as Neath had to give way to the Ospreys.

There are many ways Welsh regions could be defined and lines drown on a map. For 2 decades we've had the 2 west + 2 east model, as is commonly understood and referred to (east v west derbies etc). Sure, we could have a west+capital+east model, but we could also have a west+south+east model, just as plausibly, which wouldn't lock in any particular team. We could also have a west+south+capital+east or west+south west+south east+east or whatever.

What I'm saying is that it's nonsense to say that it has to be west+capital+east when that formulation was only invented a couple of months ago by the WRU in order to push their agenda.

I hear what you're saying about the history and potential of each of the regions. I don't want any of them to go. But it is a lot more than just what that region has the potential to support. The region also need to fulfil that potential. There have been 22 years since regionalization. I've looked at the results and picked out 1) how each team ranked with the other region and 2) how each team's points have compared with the league average.

For the whole 22 years, we have:
Ospreys: 11 first place, 1 last place, average pts 10% better than league mean
Scarlets: 8 first place, 1 last place, average pts 7% better than league mean
Cardiff: 3 first place, 3 last place, average pts 4% worse than league mean
Dragons: 0 first place, 17 last place, average pts 32% worse than league mean

For the last 5 years:
Ospreys: 2 first place, 0 last place, average pts 8% worse than league mean
Scarlets: 2 first place, 0 last place, average pts 14% worse than league mean
Cardiff: 1 first place, 0 last place, average pts 15% worse than league mean
Dragons: 0 first place, 5 last place, average pts 56% worse than league mean

So, looking at what has actually been achieved by the regions, whether over the whole time or the last 5 years, the Ospreys and the Scarlets have outperformed the others, and the Dragons, whatever the potential of their region, have been dramatically worse. So the plan is to get rid of one of the best and keep the worst.

And European results?

You don't like these numbers so you'd like to see some some different ones?

Do you see my point about the arbitrary choice of the west+capital+east model though?

[Sandydragon]

Carve up the areas as you want. The reality is that none of the four regions are that far from each other. Compare to some English clubs for example.

The kindest way would have been to set up professional teams which had no affiliation to traditional clubs, thus east and west (whatever) playing matches across their region. But that proposal has never gone down well in Wales.

Basically we have a crap set up and it’s a miracle that we have won anything over the past couple of decades.

[Sandydragon]

The case has not been made why losing a region is necessary at this point (without - honestly - exploring different funding models).

Before the consultation the idea that there had to be a capital team plus a west and an east team had never been mentioned. Before then it was - and still is - clear that there are two west wales teams and two east wales. This reformulation which conveniently locks in Cardiff and the Dragons is bullshit.

We start from where we are, with the fans and the infrastructure built around 2 east and 2 west. It would make much more sense and be incredibly less destructive to move to a model with an elite and dev team in the west and the same in the east.

The damage from throwing a quarter of the fans under the bus and sacking the same share of the players will be immense. And won't the derbies be fun when there are only three teams? How about those outside the window internationals with far less players to choose from? Welsh rugby will be permanently diminished. And, to cap it all, keeping our worst team and scrapping our best or one of the better ones is village idiot stuff.

Two small points. The Dragons have a new legal agreement with the WRU which the Ospreys and Scarlets do not. Yes the WRU could shake the whole thing up and try to ignore it, but lawyers would still have a field day and that presents a risk.

Second point, this season ,the Dragons are a better side than the Scarlets. Since none of the regions have been consistently competitive for several years, I don’t think any of them can claim the high ground based on performance.

The contract could be a factor. Or not. Without seeing the contract or being a lawyer, who knows? But if it was a factor, it would be a terrible reason to make a permanent structural change to Welsh rugby.

See my previous post for a comparison of regional performances. The Dragons have been the last place Welsh team for the last 5 years (and 17 out of 22 years) and their league points scored have been dramatically worse than the other Welsh regions (in the last 5 years they've averaged 19 points/season vs about 40 for the other 3 teams). I agree they've had a great month and I hope they keep winning, but you can't judge a team halfway through a season (they're only 5 points ahead of the Scarlets).

One aside - it's worth noting that the regions have had considerably worse results in the last 4 years, since the 4 South African teams showed up. Not everything is an internal problem.

If we overlay the financial situation for individual regions over those results, it makes the case for reducing the number of pro teams.

[newgalesurf]

So now politicians getting involved. WRU brass to report to a Welsh affairs committee in Westminster