EPS Watch / Player Form Thread

[padprop]

How does Brock James keep getting these high level gigs? Worst top level fly half I have seen in a long time.

[p/d]

How does Brock James keep getting these high level gigs? Worst top level fly half I have seen in a long time.

Wasn't that impressed with Munster's Berrick Barnes lookalike

[Scrumhead]

Copied from my post on TRF ... thought you guys might be interested ...

There were some very interesting comments from Eddie regarding the tour selection in this week's TRP.

"If we can produce three or four players from this tour that get us something a little bit different from what we have it will be a great boost."

Considering we're taking 16 uncapped players, that says something about Eddie's expectations on how many of those are likely to become a feature in the EPS in the build-up to the World Cup.

I think we're taking some real risks, but at the same time, it has taken Maro Itoje only 12 caps to make himself virtually indispensable to England and we have circa 20 remaining before Eddie will need to pick a squad for Japan. Itoje is a bit of a freak and perhaps an unfair example, but if the Curry twins continue their rapid rise for example, we may look back on this tour as having been a critical gamble.

Personally, I think one or both Currys, Underhill have a good chance of impressing in the back row, as do one or both of Collier and Williams at tighthead, Jack Maunder at scrum half and Solomona on the wing. If we come out of the tour with any combination of those becoming viable, realistic options, I think we can be very satisfied.

Eddie also bemoaned how slow/poor we are at bringing through young backs in particular:

"Young backs don't get opportunities here and they miss a lot of their formative years. England win almost every trophy at U20 level and produce good players, but then a lot of the young backs tend to stagnate because they do not get the chance to play in the Premiership."

And then goes on to say: "You look at a guy like Nathan Earle at Saracens, he's played one Premiership game this season (not sure that's correct??), whereas in the Southern Hemisphere he would have played 20 Super Rugby games. Particularly for backs, those years are formative. What happens at the moment in England is that backs go on until they drop and if clubs want an x-factor player, they sign a Willie Le Roux or a Kurtley Beale, which again makes it hard for young guys to come through."

This is all true and if Eddie's legacy is a greater number of talented young backs coming through, then that's an amazing result.

[Puja]

Eddie also bemoaned how slow/poor we are at bringing through young backs in particular:

"Young backs don't get opportunities here and they miss a lot of their formative years. England win almost every trophy at U20 level and produce good players, but then a lot of the young backs tend to stagnate because they do not get the chance to play in the Premiership."

And then goes on to say: "You look at a guy like Nathan Earle at Saracens, he's played one Premiership game this season (not sure that's correct??), whereas in the Southern Hemisphere he would have played 20 Super Rugby games. Particularly for backs, those years are formative. What happens at the moment in England is that backs go on until they drop and if clubs want an x-factor player, they sign a Willie Le Roux or a Kurtley Beale, which again makes it hard for young guys to come through."

This is all true and if Eddie's legacy is a greater number of talented young backs coming through, then that's an amazing result.

Yeah Eddie, where are all those backs from recent JWC victories, like Dan Robson, Henry Slade, Jack Nowell, Anthony Watson, Joe Marchant, Billy Burns, Nick Tompkins, and Harry Mallinder? They never seem to get any Premiership games!

Puja

[Scrumhead]

True, but there are a good few players who have been slower to make the breakthrough.

It seems to be a particular issue at 9. Robson and Spencer being prime examples. Townsend has also taken a fairly long time to chance to get a decent opportunity at Exeter.

I'll be intrigued to see what Exeter do at 9 next season. Maunder and Townsend have shown they are good enough IMO, but they'll be competing with Nic White, Chudley and Matawalu and five 9s in the first team squad will be hard to manage.

[Raggs]

That Townsend is behind Maunder may suggest that the fact they won the JRWC doesn't always mean they're good enough for senior rugby... the biggest stars from each JRWC seem to have come through fairly quickly to memory.

[Oakboy]

There may be a touch of irony in Eddie's comments. I agree that youngsters struggle to oust experienced trundlers. The two that stand out as superb team men are Barritt and Goode. It's not that Saracens could not fairly easily find two players with better individual flair. They could. But could they find two players who would instantly make the team unit better? They could not. How do you create an environment to alter selecting two such club stalwarts until they retire? One way might be to select players from the side that plays the most open rugby - Wasps. The likes of Robson, Simpson, Cipriani and Wade are ignored by Eddie (and Gatland). I'm not saying Eddie should select them, just that his selections so far - Brown, Farrell (at 12), Youngs, Care, for example - have taken the same phlegmatic approach that he is crtiticising.

[Banquo]

There may be a touch of irony in Eddie's comments. I agree that youngsters struggle to oust experienced trundlers. The two that stand out as superb team men are Barritt and Goode. It's not that Saracens could not fairly easily find two players with better individual flair. They could. But could they find two players who would instantly make the team unit better? They could not. How do you create an environment to alter selecting two such club stalwarts until they retire? One way might be to select players from the side that plays the most open rugby - Wasps. The likes of Robson, Simpson, Cipriani and Wade are ignored by Eddie (and Gatland). I'm not saying Eddie should select them, just that his selections so far - Brown, Farrell (at 12), Youngs, Care, for example - have taken the same phlegmatic approach that he is crtiticising.

Pragmatic! I spit at your phlegm!

[Digby]

I like the idea that Mike Brown is of calm disposition

[Banquo]

I like the idea that Mike Brown is of calm disposition

...and, indeed Owen 'Iceman' Farrell, and Danny 'Not a' Care....

[p/d]

I might be wrong but didn't Earle miss a whole season (2015) due to injury, then on return Sarries loaned him out to get game time before bringing him back into the fold last season.

Not really sure it is Jones' best example.

Now If he had made his case using Lozowksi then I might buy into his ramblings.

[kk67]

That Seymour is the record holder shows it's not a guarantee of greatness, other than in KK67's eyes. Pretty good work from an 18 year old, though.

Aye. Fair point.
If we accept that England are utterly incompetent when it comes to picking a proper 7.
Which is pretty much a given.

[twitchy]

Interview with harry williams

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/ ... ugby-union

[fivepointer]

Ha, sounds like a good guy. He's come on a bundle last 2 seasons. Good spot by Baxter.

[Beasties]

Pleased he's in the squad for Arg. I really rate him, he's easily Exeter's best TH and a big lump. Can't think of a better scrummaging TH that's Eng qualified, but he has a lot more than that going for him. I imagine he'd be horrible to play against.

[fivepointer]

He was good yesterday. Very solid in the scrums, carried well and made his tackles. When you see the work he puts in to a game and contrast that with Brookes, who yet again came off relatively early, you see why he's been picked. I think Eddie might have made a very shrewd call.

[Digby]

I think Exeter miss a lot of what Francis offers if someone else is in the team, I don't know I would pick Williams above him if they had both available for a big game. Though I might also rate Williams little higher as a player, it's just the maul is a big thing for Exeter.

[twitchy]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/ ... e-calling/

[Puja]

Rapava-Ruskin now not available for the Barbarians match even if England wanted him, as he's been banned for six weeks for pushing a referee in the game against Newcastle. Not clever.

Puja

[Danno]

He's off to the international career graveyard anyways... >.>

[Scrumhead]

Fissler has Tweeted an England training squad for a strength and conditioning camp.

It only includes players whose clubs are not involved in the play-offs but some interesting names:

Forwards:

Rob Buchanan (Harlequins)
Will Collier (Harlequins)
Ben Curry (Sale)
Tom Curry (Sale)
Tom Ellis (Bath)
Charlie Ewels (Bath)
Ross Harrison (Sale)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)
Will Spencer (Worcester)

Backs:

Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Danny Care (Harlequins)
George Ford (Bath)
Mike Haley (Sale)
Perry Humphreys (Worcester)
Sam James (Sale)
Joe Marchant (Harlequins)
Ryan Mills (Worcester)
Denny Solomona (Sale)
Jason Woodward (Bristol)
Marland Yarde (Harlequins)

Obviously you can't read too much in to it with a lot of the regulars being unavailable but it's good to see that Ellis, Humphreys, Mills and Woodward are on the radar and Haley is not out of the picture.

Rapava-Ruskin surely would have been picked ahead of Harrison had he not picked up that dumbass ban.

I like Will Spencer but I suspect that Barrow would have been in ahead of him if available. Similarly Rob Buchanan has really improved this season but I still think McGuigan would have been in ahead of him. Semantics really since we're talking about players well down the pecking order.

[fivepointer]

Good chance to run the rule over players picked for Argentina who wouldnt have been in camp before, plus having a look at a few outsiders.

Really pleased for Ellis and Spencer among the forwards. Humphreys is an interesting pick in the backs.

[Puja]

Not really sure what the point of having Ryan Mills there is. I would've placed him safely in the "never will be" pile and leapt straight to an U20s name like Malins.

Interesting that Harrison is there ahead of Nathan Catt. Would suggest that he is lined up for the 17 shirt vs the BaaBaas behind whichever of Genge and Mullan is unavailable. Did anyone else notice that Harrison played 3 for Sale against Leicester? Was that an in extremis selection or is he being groomed to move across?

Puja

[Scrumhead]

Not really sure what the point of having Ryan Mills there is. I would've placed him safely in the "never will be" pile and leapt straight to an U20s name like Malins.

Interesting that Harrison is there ahead of Nathan Catt. Would suggest that he is lined up for the 17 shirt vs the BaaBaas behind whichever of Genge and Mullan is unavailable. Did anyone else notice that Harrison played 3 for Sale against Leicester? Was that an in extremis selection or is he being groomed to move across?

Puja

I'm not sure I'd consign Mills to the 'never will be' pile yet. He's not 25 until the end of the month so still has plenty of time on his side and when he's been given game time, he's delivered for Worcester. I'd argue his form has been one of the biggest factors in Worcester's resurgence under Gold.

He's expressed a preference for playing 12 next season and if he shows up well playing week-in, week-out in that second-playmaker role, he could be a useful option to have in/around the EPS mix. IMO, he's effectively competing with Slade, Francis and Mallinder. He's not in Slade's class, but Slade still needs to nail down a position, Francis will likely be playing at 10 and despite Mallinder's obvious potential, he still has glaring weaknesses in his game that may take longer than a couple of seasons to solve.

I agree with you re. Catt. Perhaps he didn't impress last time he was called in to camp? It seems as the Rokoduguni's also slipped behind Humphreys and Attwood behind Spencer. Ellis' call-up doesn't really balance it out for Bath.

I'm also slightly surprised that Ribbans didn't get a call. I imagine Eddie likes the look of him.

Shame for any Newcastle players too after the season they've had.

[Banquo]

Not really sure what the point of having Ryan Mills there is. I would've placed him safely in the "never will be" pile and leapt straight to an U20s name like Malins.

Interesting that Harrison is there ahead of Nathan Catt. Would suggest that he is lined up for the 17 shirt vs the BaaBaas behind whichever of Genge and Mullan is unavailable. Did anyone else notice that Harrison played 3 for Sale against Leicester? Was that an in extremis selection or is he being groomed to move across?

Puja

I'm not sure I'd consign Mills to the 'never will be' pile yet. He's not 25 until the end of the month so still has plenty of time on his side and when he's been given game time, he's delivered for Worcester. I'd argue his form has been one of the biggest factors in Worcester's resurgence under Gold.

He's expressed a preference for playing 12 next season and if he shows up well playing week-in, week-out in that second-playmaker role, he could be a useful option to have in/around the EPS mix. IMO, he's effectively competing with Slade, Francis and Mallinder. He's not in Slade's class, but Slade still needs to nail down a position, Francis will likely be playing at 10 and despite Mallinder's obvious potential, he still has glaring weaknesses in his game that may take longer than a couple of seasons to solve.

I agree with you re. Catt. Perhaps he didn't impress last time he was called in to camp? It seems as the Rokoduguni's also slipped behind Humphreys and Attwood behind Spencer. Ellis' call-up doesn't really balance it out for Bath.

I'm also slightly surprised that Ribbans didn't get a call. I imagine Eddie likes the look of him.

Shame for any Newcastle players too after the season they've had.

Seems clear that in the majority of cases, Eddie has skipped the 23-30 year olds who haven't already established themselves in looking to Argentina; hence Puja's 'surprise' over Mills- who I also think is a good player and will make a good fist of 12.