EPS Watch / Player Form Thread

[Banquo]

It could be said that allowing the clubs access to these players during the AIs means that the clubs are more likely to give those players their break at the beginning of the season, and ease them in more gradually. Always a sore point after a Lions or RWC.

IIRC though, the EPS rules means that Eddie can select his EPS, and just not release those players he considers to be in need of a rest. That, of course, does nothing to help the relationship between club and union.

and I'd think he'd need to extend the EPS and offer up cash.

[Which Tyler]

Extend passed 45? I think he's got all the leeway in there he needs doesn't he?
More cash? RFU already pay the cash to allow the England coach to make that call. So far as we know, coaches releasing players is their discretion, not mandatory or requiring of further payment. Of course, cash would help sooth the blow/ego of PRL

[Puja]

It could be said that allowing the clubs access to these players during the AIs means that the clubs are more likely to give those players their break at the beginning of the season, and ease them in more gradually. Always a sore point after a Lions or RWC.

IIRC though, the EPS rules means that Eddie can select his EPS, and just not release those players he considers to be in need of a rest. That, of course, does nothing to help the relationship between club and union.

and I'd think he'd need to extend the EPS and offer up cash.

The EPS is now 45 players, remember? Plenty of room to have some passengers.

Puja

[Banquo]

It could be said that allowing the clubs access to these players during the AIs means that the clubs are more likely to give those players their break at the beginning of the season, and ease them in more gradually. Always a sore point after a Lions or RWC.

IIRC though, the EPS rules means that Eddie can select his EPS, and just not release those players he considers to be in need of a rest. That, of course, does nothing to help the relationship between club and union.

and I'd think he'd need to extend the EPS and offer up cash.

The EPS is now 45 players, remember? Plenty of room to have some passengers.

Puja

its my age. (not 45 tho, sadly). Is there a release rule, or is that EJ discretion.

[Banquo]

Extend passed 45? I think he's got all the leeway in there he needs doesn't he?
More cash? RFU already pay the cash to allow the England coach to make that call. So far as we know, coaches releasing players is their discretion, not mandatory or requiring of further payment. Of course, cash would help sooth the blow/ego of PRL

sorry, I'd missed the 45 piece.

[Mellsblue]

Most of those in need of managing are at Sarries and if there is one club I trust to manage their players well it's them. Lawes at Northampton? I've not so much faith.

[Puja]

It could be said that allowing the clubs access to these players during the AIs means that the clubs are more likely to give those players their break at the beginning of the season, and ease them in more gradually. Always a sore point after a Lions or RWC.

I'd be in favour of that. Give the clubs a choice - either rest the players for 4 weeks at the start of the season and they can have them during the AIs, or play them at the start but they'll be rested over the 4 weeks of the EPS international period.

Puja

[Spiffy]

I'm with Puja on this

Not only have (most of) our best players gained the experience of playing the Kiwis, we've essentially had a second opinion on the merits of some of those players and seen them in a slightly different context.

It's also given exposure to the more fringe English players on what was a very handy Arg tour.

Coming out of both tours, I think we're smarter in all sorts of ways, not least about the stating 15 for England. We've got some bloody good players.

My one gripe is that if I hear Farrell is a 'test match animal' one more time I will definitely kill myself

Now fair doos to Faz there, Nomad. He is a test match animal. When it comes to tackling - a hamster.

[Mikey Brown]

I think a lemming is more appropriate.

[Which Tyler]

And the spacial awareness of a sea sponge

[Banquo]

I think a lemming is more appropriate.

[skidger]

Just looking at some of the Lions tour stats and Farrell had the most missed tackles on tour. And concrete hands Teo had the most offloads. Some staggering stats when you see them all listed. Faletau played a huge amount of minutes and Watson is not far behind him. Admittedly he was glued to the touchline as per instructions.

[TheNomad]

Have you got a link to the stats?

[skidger]

Have you got a link to the stats?

Teo also had the most clean breaks and 11 missed tackles by Farrell. Liams Williams with 17 turnovers conceded......nice.

http://rugbylad.com/all-the-player-stat ... w-zealand/

[Spiffy]

Have you got a link to the stats?

Teo also had the most clean breaks and 11 missed tackles by Farrell. Liams Williams with 17 turnovers conceded......nice.

http://rugbylad.com/all-the-player-stat ... w-zealand/

Quite a surprise to read that Teo had the most clean breaks; the most offoads and was second only to Watson in defenders beaten. Very good stats (though not normalized to the number of games played). Looks like a pretty effective 12 and not just a bosher.
You'd wonder how the Lions might have fared if he'd started all tests.

[morepork]

Faletau is just all round useful isn't he? Thank christ you played Farrell at 12 otherwise we might not have scored any tries.

[TheNomad]

Faletau is just all round useful isn't he? Thank christ you played Farrell at 12 otherwise we might not have scored any tries.

It's an interesting general point this one.

Personally, I think Farrell is a good player. But certainly with limitations, and rarely have I watched him at test level and thought "there's a great player", in the way that I have with Ford (though I recognise his own flaws and his inconsistency) and many others. It feels like a lot of people on this site feel similarly.

And yet within the game, there seems to be this feeling, from lots of people who seem to know their stuff, that's he's a world class operator. This whole "test match animal" bollox gets regurgitated time and again (personally it drives me insane).

I just don't see it. Maybe his impact on the team goes way beyond what you can see with your eyes. Maybe he's an exceptional leader and organiser. Maybe his decision making is beyond my understanding of the game (very possible for sure).

But rarely have I seen a player where I disagree with pundits so wholeheartedly. What am I missing?

[Mikey Brown]

Have you seen the clip of POC from the last tour where he's tearing in to everybody and asking why Farrell, the youngest guy on the tour, is the only one he can hear on the pitch? I think shouting a lot, which possibly overlaps with organising people, goes a long way in some respects.

I can see him as that kind of guy, but I really don't see how it excuses poor execution of basically every core skill at one time or another during a match.

He's like the anti-Tom Wood. All his poor stuff goes completely unseen, leaving just the good moments.

[TheNomad]

Have you seen the clip of POC from the last tour where he's tearing in to everybody and asking why Farrell, the youngest guy on the tour, is the only one he can hear on the pitch? I think shouting a lot, which possibly overlaps with organising people, goes a long way in some respects.

I can see him as that kind of guy, but I really don't see how it excuses poor execution of basically every core skill at one time or another during a match.

He's like the anti-Tom Wood. All his poor stuff goes completely unseen, leaving just the good moments.

I have seen that clip, yes. But to your point, he'd better be one hell of a good shouter given the number of times I think his execution goes lacking.

I felt the same about Hartley vs. George - as the team develops and other players become leaders, I think it'll increasingly make sense to leave those sorts of players behind and play the better players, even if they might not be quite as charismatic.

Now in the case of Farrell, what he does give you, vs. Ford, is more reliable kicking and better defense. If you're playing a type of game that we have been, that certainly has value. So don't get me wrong, it's not that he's not a good player.

It's just that on many occasion, when an overlap has been there to exploit, when we've been in a great position to convert territory into 5 points...he seems to make odd decisions or execute badly. That for me is as core an requirement for his position as line out throwing is for a hooker, scrumming is for a prop or breakdown work is for a 7. His penalty kicking to touch also p*sses me off, every time - he's just so damn conservative. I get that you don't want to miss it, but there seems to be (i) no judgement as to when to take a risk or (b) a lack of flexibility to allow, for instance, a left footer like Daly to kick something on the right hand touchline. It's annoying.

And yet neither or these issues (or the missed tackles, or the many poor kicking days he has) get highlighted, and especially not relative to someone like Ford, who frankly does things that he can't either. In my opinion, this is largely because he's a good kicker and a solid defender...for most of the time anyway.

Like I say, I'm missing something, or I'm underestimating just what he adds in terms of leadership and/or tactical decision making.

[Mikey Brown]

Aye. I was grasping at straws rather than claiming that as my reason for defending him. I'm not even that sure I'd say he's better in defence than Ford, you'd have to weigh up the yards made in contact v Ford with the metres made through Farrell-shaped dog-legs in defence.

The line-kicking thing is infuriating. Rather confusingly I feel this adds to this perception about Ford (rightly or wrongly I think many feel it) that he doesn't just tell Farrell he's shit at it and take the ball himself. I don't think that's a massively practical or rational reaction, but it's one I've had.

[Oakboy]

Aye. I was grasping at straws rather than claiming that as my reason for defending him. I'm not even that sure I'd say he's better in defence than Ford, you'd have to weigh up the yards made in contact v Ford with the metres made through Farrell-shaped dog-legs in defence.

The line-kicking thing is infuriating. Rather confusingly I feel this adds to this perception about Ford (rightly or wrongly I think many feel it) that he doesn't just tell Farrell he's shit at it and take the ball himself. I don't think that's a massively practical or rational reaction, but it's one I've had.

Ford is often quoted as saying that he gets on well with Farrell and enjoys an effective understanding on the pitch. That is the biggest issue for me because I see Ford as constantly underperforming with Farrell next to him at 12. The overall team performance has to be the only measure of course. As a pairing they have been an excellent stop-gap because there has been no outstanding IC available. If one fell out of the sky tomorrow, I'm convinced that the long-term team development would reach greater heights with Ford at 10 than Farrell. I don't think that Eddie agrees, though. It may be interesting if Farrell is rested for the AIs but the snag with that is that Ford will have Care at 9 presumably.

[Mellsblue]

but the snag with that is that Ford will have Care at 9 presumably.

Why?

[morepork]

He is not a great defender though is he? Most missed tackles on that tour. He get's bounced a lot and seems to constantly mess up the defensive line by rushing out like a 10 year old dosed up on food colouring. Maybe the shout hypothesis holds some water after all.

[Spiffy]

Aye. I was grasping at straws rather than claiming that as my reason for defending him. I'm not even that sure I'd say he's better in defence than Ford, you'd have to weigh up the yards made in contact v Ford with the metres made through Farrell-shaped dog-legs in defence.

The line-kicking thing is infuriating. Rather confusingly I feel this adds to this perception about Ford (rightly or wrongly I think many feel it) that he doesn't just tell Farrell he's shit at it and take the ball himself. I don't think that's a massively practical or rational reaction, but it's one I've had.

Ford is often quoted as saying that he gets on well with Farrell and enjoys an effective understanding on the pitch. That is the biggest issue for me because I see Ford as constantly underperforming with Farrell next to him at 12. The overall team performance has to be the only measure of course. As a pairing they have been an excellent stop-gap because there has been no outstanding IC available. If one fell out of the sky tomorrow, I'm convinced that the long-term team development would reach greater heights with Ford at 10 than Farrell. I don't think that Eddie agrees, though. It may be interesting if Farrell is rested for the AIs but the snag with that is that Ford will have Care at 9 presumably.

Yes. Ford played brilliantly for England In Argentina, with no Farrell around. His general play was great and his kicking from hand and tee superb. I blame Eddie Jones for the current situation. If Farrell is undertaking the duties of 10 (e.g. penalties to touch) from the 12 slot, then it is because Jones has instructed it, and not simply that Farrell grabs the ball first. The message is loud and clear that Jones does not trust Ford to the full job job at 10.

Ford is the more skillful and intuitive rugby player but Farrell gets all the media kudos, however well or badly he plays. You have to wonder if this Emperor's New Clothes syndrome will ever wear off. Half (most of?) the pundits and fans seem to have a poor appreciation of what the game is about and don't know what they are talking about (except on these boards, of course!)

Re. defence - I do not get all the Ford knocking. I think that many believe, that since he is a small man, he must automatically be a poor tackler, and have reached that conclusion without actually watching him closely. Obviously he is not a big-hit merchant, but he generally gets the job done, pulls down his man and is an effective enough defender. I do not have the statistics but I suspect he misses fewer tackles than Farrell.

[Digby]

There are lots of things Farrell does well. It's not nothing he's a more physical presence, he tends to keep his game straight from 10 so he's not really reducing space outwide, his work off the ball is excellent, he takes a lot of good options with the ball, and his passing is mostly now at least solid, he also tends to default to a decision to go forwards and apply pressure rather than back off in the forlorn hope things will improve doing nothing

He does still butch the odd pass, more than he should for the level, and he does tend to still look a little clunky. I've wondered for a while if part of what makes Farrell look clunky is he's so often trying to keep straight to fix a defence, but it could be even if it looks ungainly it's more effective and gives him more options.

And whilst Farrell does miss tackles that's an accepted part of the linespeed to put the other side under pressure, even if his decision making in this area isn't always the best (and some allowances should be allowed for shunting back and forth from 10 to 12)

Also Farrell has improved a lot more than Ford in the last few seasons, so whilst I'd pick Ford for a match tomorrow it's possible I'd be picking Farrell come 2019 if the different levels of improvement continue, and if that's the case it'd probably be better to pick Farrell now. Hard this crystal gazing, but Eddie isn't getting paid such good money to have easy decisions.