Mikey Brown wrote:So, literally just inheriting all the problems of the super touch league (credit to whoever said that originally) along with their discarded teams?
Not really, that would leave us with 2 more teams so 14, same as the French, quite acheivable.
Yeah I thought that might not have been that clear. I was more referring to the suggestion of the conference system, which seems to be horribly confusing and unsatisfactory from what little attention I've paid to their league.
I just wanted to use the phrase super touch, to be honest.
Ross. S wrote:
??? Surely if the club season were to be reduced from 30 or so club games (22 league, 6 euro plus playoffs with both etc) to 16-20 the superstars would be able to play in most if not all games. Is that difficult to understand?
Personally I'd like to scrap all current competitions and replace with 1 europe wide, 40 team strong (take the NFL model, 2 conferences split into 4 pools of 5) competition playing 18-20 high quality max intensity games with a SF-F-superbowl-esq cross conference finale. But it'd never happen.
You said that you would like to see fewer games of a higher standard and then in the next sentence you said that you would like to see superstars week in week out, so if there are fewer games how would this be acheivable is my point.
I think a Eruopean league is just farcical tbh and I wouldn't be in support of a two tier system either.
Top players play what, 15-20 games a season? so in a 30 game season they're missing quite often. Reduce the season to <20 games and the top players can play every week without risking burn-out. Top players, playing every game would increase the quality, no? Increased quality and star power would (shoud?) increase fan turn out which should cover loss of revenue from less games.
What you seem to be overlooking is that if you reduce the amount of games they won't be playing every week...
Mikey Brown wrote:So, literally just inheriting all the problems of the super touch league (credit to whoever said that originally) along with their discarded teams?
Not really, that would leave us with 2 more teams so 14, same as the French, quite acheivable.
Yeah I thought that might not have been that clear. I was more referring to the suggestion of the conference system, which seems to be horribly confusing and unsatisfactory from what little attention I've paid to their league.
I just wanted to use the phrase super touch, to be honest.
Numbers wrote:
You said that you would like to see fewer games of a higher standard and then in the next sentence you said that you would like to see superstars week in week out, so if there are fewer games how would this be acheivable is my point.
I think a Eruopean league is just farcical tbh and I wouldn't be in support of a two tier system either.
Top players play what, 15-20 games a season? so in a 30 game season they're missing quite often. Reduce the season to <20 games and the top players can play every week without risking burn-out. Top players, playing every game would increase the quality, no? Increased quality and star power would (shoud?) increase fan turn out which should cover loss of revenue from less games.
What you seem to be overlooking is that if you reduce the amount of games they won't be playing every week...
Are you trying to be hard work? Reduce the season to 20 weeks, a player can play 20 games a season so how is that not every week? Or do you only accept every week as playing 52+ times a year?
Ross. S wrote:
Top players play what, 15-20 games a season? so in a 30 game season they're missing quite often. Reduce the season to <20 games and the top players can play every week without risking burn-out. Top players, playing every game would increase the quality, no? Increased quality and star power would (shoud?) increase fan turn out which should cover loss of revenue from less games.
What you seem to be overlooking is that if you reduce the amount of games they won't be playing every week...
Are you trying to be hard work? Reduce the season to 20 weeks, a player can play 20 games a season so how is that not every week? Or do you only accept every week as playing 52+ times a year?
The season is 35 weeks+ long, so they would be playing not far off every other week.
I think the point is that we either have more club games, and accept that the top international players cannot play in every one, or have less club games but with international players more likely to play.
More games might mean more cash for the clubs, but will supporters continue to pay to watch sub-standard games.
What is for certain is that the current season is a joke. International windows that crop up just before big european games, which by themselves are split across the season. I'd rather move all international games to the end of the season and work out how to keep the home and away international 'friendlies' in and around a six nations that is later in the season.
It is very difficult though to make a case for less club rugby when the 2 league that are most financially viable are those which play the most rugby, although are they financially viable as proper business entities or just because they have benefactors pouring money in?
Whilst we have European competitions which lets be honest brings in revenue if you get success (eg the Irish sides ) then the top players are commited to playing at least 4 European games plus 9 internationals plus a week before and a week in between for the 6 nations thats 13 matches over a 15 week period and that's before they even play a Pro 12 match .
Adding to that national summer and Lions tours plus world cups it becomes even less likely that they play Pro 12. So whilst the idea of limiting is good the practicality is that they would still not play many region matches.
My thought is that whilst the leading players add to the spectacle, the fact they are away gives an opportunity to other players to develop.From a personal perspective I would go to a match to support a team irrespective of whether AWJ or Warburton or JD2 is playing or not .
Ex prop Ex coach still a Welshman and enjoying retirement
ALunpg wrote:Whilst we have European competitions which lets be honest brings in revenue if you get success (eg the Irish sides ) then the top players are commited to playing at least 4 European games plus 9 internationals plus a week before and a week in between for the 6 nations thats 13 matches over a 15 week period and that's before they even play a Pro 12 match .
Adding to that national summer and Lions tours plus world cups it becomes even less likely that they play Pro 12. So whilst the idea of limiting is good the practicality is that they would still not play many region matches.
My thought is that whilst the leading players add to the spectacle, the fact they are away gives an opportunity to other players to develop.From a personal perspective I would go to a match to support a team irrespective of whether AWJ or Warburton or JD2 is playing or not .
I'd agree. I think the issue is not one of resting players, but of weakened teams getting stuffed. Is the solution less games so the top players can take part or more money for larger squads that have sufficient depth to manage player rotation and international duties?
Ross. S wrote:
Top players play what, 15-20 games a season? so in a 30 game season they're missing quite often. Reduce the season to <20 games and the top players can play every week without risking burn-out. Top players, playing every game would increase the quality, no? Increased quality and star power would (shoud?) increase fan turn out which should cover loss of revenue from less games.
What you seem to be overlooking is that if you reduce the amount of games they won't be playing every week...
Are you trying to be hard work? Reduce the season to 20 weeks, a player can play 20 games a season so how is that not every week? Or do you only accept every week as playing 52+ times a year?
Sandydragon wrote:I think the point is that we either have more club games, and accept that the top international players cannot play in every one, or have less club games but with international players more likely to play.
More games might mean more cash for the clubs, but will supporters continue to pay to watch sub-standard games.
What is for certain is that the current season is a joke. International windows that crop up just before big european games, which by themselves are split across the season. I'd rather move all international games to the end of the season and work out how to keep the home and away international 'friendlies' in and around a six nations that is later in the season.
It is very difficult though to make a case for less club rugby when the 2 league that are most financially viable are those which play the most rugby, although are they financially viable as proper business entities or just because they have benefactors pouring money in?
It wouldnt develop any players and there wouldnt be enough income, so I agree it won't happen, especially not since the tier below the regions is just not good enough to provide that required development at that level.
Frankly, the only solution is to accept that there will be star players missing a lot during Pro12 games and teams that have ambitions in the European cups will target those.
Sandydragon wrote:It wouldnt develop any players and there wouldnt be enough income, so I agree it won't happen, especially not since the tier below the regions is just not good enough to provide that required development at that level.
Frankly, the only solution is to accept that there will be star players missing a lot during Pro12 games and teams that have ambitions in the European cups will target those.
Indeed, as we are, they should still be able to pick the star players for the bigger league games.
Sandydragon wrote:It wouldnt develop any players and there wouldnt be enough income, so I agree it won't happen, especially not since the tier below the regions is just not good enough to provide that required development at that level.
Frankly, the only solution is to accept that there will be star players missing a lot during Pro12 games and teams that have ambitions in the European cups will target those.
Indeed, as we are, they should still be able to pick the star players for the bigger league games.
Although many of our sides then tend to lose against opposition they are expected to do well against!
Bottom line is we need more money and if this SA deal can bring more in then fantastic, although I will be a but gutted to see the end of the derby days.
Mikey Brown wrote:Have there been any ideas floated yet about the Euro qualification conundrum?
I haven't seen anything and as the deal is with the PRO12 there is no obligation for the SA teams to be in the Champions Cup or Challenge Cup competitions which have different governing bodies, I would assume it will stay the same but with the position of the SA teams discounted.
Yeah I had presumed they wouldn't even be in the debate for participating, but it seems curious how a team from South Africa can (in part) dictate the teams who take part in the European cup. No other way to do it I suppose, it just doesn't sound right to me.
Mikey Brown wrote:Yeah I had presumed they wouldn't even be in the debate for participating, but it seems curious how a team from South Africa can (in part) dictate the teams who take part in the European cup. No other way to do it I suppose, it just doesn't sound right to me.
I see what you mean, the SA teams will be much more likely to field similar strength teams week on week (no 6 nations, no AIs), so at least all the usual teams should be playing the same standard of team, the tricky bit being if you have to face one of those teams during the international window when they will be a lot stronger relatively than the PRO12 teams.
Mikey Brown wrote:Yeah I had presumed they wouldn't even be in the debate for participating, but it seems curious how a team from South Africa can (in part) dictate the teams who take part in the European cup. No other way to do it I suppose, it just doesn't sound right to me.
I see what you mean, the SA teams will be much more likely to field similar strength teams week on week (no 6 nations, no AIs), so at least all the usual teams should be playing the same standard of team, the tricky bit being if you have to face one of those teams during the international window when they will be a lot stronger relatively than the PRO12 teams.
South Africa play in the Autumn internationals, so it would affect these teams if they have any Springboks playing for them.
Looks more likely... playing 6 teams twice and 7 against the other teams so that's 19 matches against 22 at the moment . These are the weaker sides in SA and they do not have many Internationals plus their players will be rested during European competitions of at least 6 matches.
Whilst I am always exited about a new challenge I still have many reservations about travel and ensuring a level playing field.
What would be interesting is the attendance when these teams play.
Ex prop Ex coach still a Welshman and enjoying retirement
Looks more likely... playing 6 teams twice and 7 against the other teams so that's 19 matches against 22 at the moment . These are the weaker sides in SA and they do not have many Internationals plus their players will be rested during European competitions of at least 6 matches.
Whilst I am always exited about a new challenge I still have many reservations about travel and ensuring a level playing field.
What would be interesting is the attendance when these teams play.
Yup. I'm not against giving this a shot and it might be the financial improvement the Pro12 needs. It will need time to bed in, but I hope that the increase in revenues will offset the loss of the derby matches which are guaranteed sellouts (or very good attendance) for the regions.
ALunpg wrote:Whilst I am always exited about a new challenge I still have many reservations about travel and ensuring a level playing field. What would be interesting is the attendance when these teams play.
I'm also interested to see how things go. Given that it'll be South Africa's summer, Bloemfontein's average January high of 31 degrees means they'll probably be playing in the evening/night. The Saffers have enjoyed a SR TV schedule that's been tailored to suit them for decades, so it'll be interesting to see how they react if/when the shoe is on the other foot.
ALunpg wrote:Whilst I am always exited about a new challenge I still have many reservations about travel and ensuring a level playing field. What would be interesting is the attendance when these teams play.
I'm also interested to see how things go. Given that it'll be South Africa's summer, Bloemfontein's average January high of 31 degrees means they'll probably be playing in the evening/night. The Saffers have enjoyed a SR TV schedule that's been tailored to suit them for decades, so it'll be interesting to see how they react if/when the shoe is on the other foot.
Damn ..I will book me hols ..hopefully we get to play there in December ..
Ex prop Ex coach still a Welshman and enjoying retirement
Guiness Atlantic Rugby League... Medium tearm Plan is for a US team to join in a couple of years and then a german team in 2-4 years. Guiness currently pay £1M a year, and this could go up to £10M with the inclusion of SA and US teams.
I've also seen it mooted that you only play your conference so the ST I bought in May could have gone from11 home league games, 3 Euro games and however many LV/BIC/Cardiff RFC games will be 6 home league games - none of which against Dragons or Scarlets although the WRU assured the JSG that the number of derbies would remain the same.
Not sure about Euro qualification but believe the plan is for the SA teams to be eligible to qualify.
It also costs nearly £2k to fly to Bloemfontein from London!
Tre wrote:Guiness Atlantic Rugby League... Medium tearm Plan is for a US team to join in a couple of years and then a german team in 2-4 years. Guiness currently pay £1M a year, and this could go up to £10M with the inclusion of SA and US teams.
I've also seen it mooted that you only play your conference so the ST I bought in May could have gone from11 home league games, 3 Euro games and however many LV/BIC/Cardiff RFC games will be 6 home league games - none of which against Dragons or Scarlets although the WRU assured the JSG that the number of derbies would remain the same.
Not sure about Euro qualification but believe the plan is for the SA teams to be eligible to qualify.
It also costs nearly £2k to fly to Bloemfontein from London!
Guiness Atlantic Rugby League
Guinness ...Atlantic League is ok in principal but not really sure about the Saffers or the Americans in the European Cup etc. ...travel costs for teams would be horrendous .
It may come in the future but not sure if there would be agreement from others this season.
My worry is financial pressure on teams unless they stump up more money for the teams.
Ex prop Ex coach still a Welshman and enjoying retirement
) then the top players are commited to playing at least 4 European games plus 9 internationals plus a week before and a week in between for the 6 nations thats 13 matches over a 15 week period and that's before they even play a Pro 12 match .