EPS Watch / Player Form Thread

[Stom]

It's the Eddie's off after 2019 bit that's confusing me too. It's obv a good thing to be looking at players for after then but it's a pretty magnanimous thing for him to be denying himself using players who would quite possibly be more relevant in the next two years in case of injury problems in the run up to and at the WC. If (eg) Itoje, Lawes and Launch got injured in the run up to the WC would he then realistically turn to Isekwe for his WC squad rather than say Symonds? I do find it a bit perplexing, but then I'm not Eddie.

Unless of course he is actually thinking he might still be here in 2020 cos the job won't have been done.

I think Eddie likes what the young players bring to the group. He wants to pick these kids who are going to work hard and bring new energy to the group. It not only adds something new, but tells the players that: it don't matter how good you think you are already, if you don't improve your ass, look at these kids who are ready to take your place.

[Scrumhead]

I know it's only a training squad but I'll admit to being a bit confused ...

Eddie has always spoken about a 4 year master plan building up to 2019, but more recently he's been taking a look at some surprisingly young players with next to no game time at club level.

I don't think that anyone doubts that Isiekwe has the potential be a top player, as well as the latest example - Marcus Smith, but I'd question whether either of those are genuinely likely to be contenders for 2019, so I'm confused at what is driving Eddie to select them - particularly considering he's supposed to be leaving after the World Cup?

I love the way he's been bringing through the U20 players and developing the 'pathway' but now we're beginning to enter the build up to Japan, surely we should be focusing our time on the players who are most likely to give us a shot at winning a World Cup. Marcus Smith won't be ready to do that in 2yrs time but someone like Freddie Burns is ready to go now.

Is he though? Is he really a worthy option? As things stand on current form, we'd need to have at least 4 players out before he even became a bench option and in that scenario we'd be screwed anyway. I'm okay with taking a bolter for a few days out, rather than giving the spot to someone who won't realistically trouble selection without significant improvement or a ridiculous run of injuries.

Eddie wants to be the man who took England to the top of the rugby world; he wants a legacy. Part of that is going to be making sure our pathways are in place, so that he can say he changed English rugby, rather than just coached a good team.

Puja

I think Burns is absolutely good enough to be our third/fourth choice fly half. I thought he was very good last season and I expect him to be good for Bath.

I agree with you on Eddie wanting to leave a legacy, but you could argue he's already doing that without the wildcard selection of 18 year old kids with next to no top level experience. I support the idea in principle, but to Beasties point, I wouldn't want to be relying on a kid if one of our first choice players were to pick up an injury that rules them out of the tournament.

Smith isn't even in Quins first team squad so he's only likely to be involved in Cup and A League games this season. Even being super-optimistic, I can't see him picking up more than 20 appearances across the 17/18 and 18/19 seasons. I can't see how that would really put him in the selection mix for the World Cup squad.

[Puja]

I know it's only a training squad but I'll admit to being a bit confused ...

Eddie has always spoken about a 4 year master plan building up to 2019, but more recently he's been taking a look at some surprisingly young players with next to no game time at club level.

I don't think that anyone doubts that Isiekwe has the potential be a top player, as well as the latest example - Marcus Smith, but I'd question whether either of those are genuinely likely to be contenders for 2019, so I'm confused at what is driving Eddie to select them - particularly considering he's supposed to be leaving after the World Cup?

I love the way he's been bringing through the U20 players and developing the 'pathway' but now we're beginning to enter the build up to Japan, surely we should be focusing our time on the players who are most likely to give us a shot at winning a World Cup. Marcus Smith won't be ready to do that in 2yrs time but someone like Freddie Burns is ready to go now.

Is he though? Is he really a worthy option? As things stand on current form, we'd need to have at least 4 players out before he even became a bench option and in that scenario we'd be screwed anyway. I'm okay with taking a bolter for a few days out, rather than giving the spot to someone who won't realistically trouble selection without significant improvement or a ridiculous run of injuries.

Eddie wants to be the man who took England to the top of the rugby world; he wants a legacy. Part of that is going to be making sure our pathways are in place, so that he can say he changed English rugby, rather than just coached a good team.

Puja

I think Burns is absolutely good enough to be our third/fourth choice fly half. I thought he was very good last season and I expect him to be good for Bath.

I agree with you on Eddie wanting to leave a legacy, but you could argue he's already doing that without the wildcard selection of 18 year old kids with next to no top level experience. I support the idea in principle, but to Beasties point, I wouldn't want to be relying on a kid if one of our first choice players were to pick up an injury that rules them out of the tournament.

Smith isn't even in Quins first team squad so he's only likely to be involved in Cup and A League games this season. Even being super-optimistic, I can't see him picking up more than 20 appearances across the 17/18 and 18/19 seasons. I can't see how that would really put him in the selection mix for the World Cup squad.

But the thing is that we're not relying on a kid if one of our first choices picks up an injury. For Isiekwe to be in a XXIII, we'd need 3 of Launch, Lawes, Itoje, Kruis, Ewels to be injured simultaneously and, were that to happen in the RWC, we probably would call up Symons or Attwood anyway. They wouldn't be really much more greatly prepared by having held tackle bags on an England weekend and we wouldn't be any more or less screwed by having had them train as 6th choice. Same with Smith - Eddie has made his list of 10s as Ford, Farrell, Lozowski, Slade, and Francis and we'd need four simultaneous injuries before we'd need another to even sit on the bench. Regardless of if one feels Burns or Cipriani should be higher on that list, the point is that those are Eddie's chosen and the only available slot at the moment is for 6th place, which Smith will get a lot more out of than Burns.

Puja

[Beasties]

You make a very good argument for what may be behind Eddie's thinking Puja. If you're right then I can see the logic of it totally. It is however quite different from what we're used to as Eng fans. Next bus off the ranks has been an established theme for as long as I can remember, apart from the SCW reign starting out with the old in with the new approach. That quickly calmed itself down too.

I hadn't viewed it quite like that but feel a bit better about it now. It very much sems like seasoned starters plus uber youths, with no middle ground. But I can't help feeling that he wouldn't be risking much by including say Robson instead of Wiggy.

[Tigersman]

The amount of Uunder 20 10's coming up who are highly rated is amazing though, off the top of my head.
Brophey-Clews
Shillcock
Malins
Greyson
Hardwick
Smith

[Puja]

You make a very good argument for what may be behind Eddie's thinking Puja. If you're right then I can see the logic of it totally. It is however quite different from what we're used to as Eng fans. Next bus off the ranks has been an established theme for as long as I can remember, apart from the SCW reign starting out with the old in with the new approach. That quickly calmed itself down too.

I hadn't viewed it quite like that but feel a bit better about it now. It very much sems like seasoned starters plus uber youths, with no middle ground. But I can't help feeling that he wouldn't be risking much by including say Robson instead of Wiggy.

Gods - don't get too controversial! You'll scare away the lurkers.

Puja

[Mellsblue]

Lots of interesting stuff in here:

Manu Tuilagi: Eddie Jones ready to pick England centre after seven-month lay-off
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/40828008

[Oakboy]

Lots of interesting stuff in here:

Manu Tuilagi: Eddie Jones ready to pick England centre after seven-month lay-off
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/40828008

Interesting that Eddie doesn't say in which shirt.

[Mikey Brown]

Is it? I feel like that would be getting massively ahead of ourselves.

[Puja]

Is it? I feel like that would be getting massively ahead of ourselves.

Well he has previously said that Manu's nothing but a 12, so would be interesting to know if he still holds that opinion.

Puja

[Bloggs]

Interesting that he calls Marcus Smith their 4th choice 10...this kid must be uber talented. I want to see him in a Quins 10 or 22 shirt NOW

[Tigersman]

Personally think that he wants a playmaking 12 now Farrell, Francis, Slade, etc, reckon Manu strats 13 with T'eo on the bench with his plans.

I wouldn't mind a backline of
9) Youngs
10) Ford
11) Watson
12) Farrell
13) Manu
14) Nowell
15) Daly

21) Care (Meh)
22) T'eo
23) May/Solomona

[Scrumhead]

Interesting that he calls Marcus Smith their 4th choice 10...this kid must be uber talented. I want to see him in a Quins 10 or 22 shirt NOW

I wonder if he's just trying to inspire the kid? Even as a Quins fan, that's just madness.

There is just no way that Eddie or anyone else can claim that Smith is better than Cipriani, Freddie or Billy Burns right now. Max Malins is also a U20 World Cup winner (OK a runner up as a 10).

Even if he has all the ability in the world, it's not been tested at anything close to the highest level so for him to be described as fourth choice is just insane.

[fivepointer]

have to take some of Eddie's comments with a large pinch of salt. Smith is a bit of a project, but he's a long way off being in serious contention. Getting some game time with Quins will be his aim this season, along with playing for the u20's.

If Manu can string together half a dozen games, then he looks odds on to play a part in the AI's.

Who else, though? Difficult to predict at this stage, which makes the coming season extremely interesting. Roll on September.

[Mikey Brown]

Yeah I'm not getting carried away just yet. 4th best EQP flyhalf is not the same as 4th flyhalf in a pre-season training group.

[Bloggs]

Let a quins fan dream...! But in all seriousness, I'm excited to see what he can do at senior level, as he obviously has bags of potential. Be good to see him get some premiership gametime this season

[Puja]

Interesting that he calls Marcus Smith their 4th choice 10...this kid must be uber talented. I want to see him in a Quins 10 or 22 shirt NOW

I wonder if he's just trying to inspire the kid? Even as a Quins fan, that's just madness.

There is just no way that Eddie or anyone else can claim that Smith is better than Cipriani, Freddie or Billy Burns right now. Max Malins is also a U20 World Cup winner (OK a runner up as a 10).

Even if he has all the ability in the world, it's not been tested at anything close to the highest level so for him to be described as fourth choice is just insane.

I will note that the exact wording that Eddie uses is, "We see enough about him to be the fourth-choice 10 in our squad." He's not saying he's the fourth best in the country, just that they see enough promise for him to be the fourth choice in this squad.

Puja

[Which Tyler]

Interesting that he calls Marcus Smith their 4th choice 10...this kid must be uber talented. I want to see him in a Quins 10 or 22 shirt NOW

I wonder if he's just trying to inspire the kid? Even as a Quins fan, that's just madness.

There is just no way that Eddie or anyone else can claim that Smith is better than Cipriani, Freddie or Billy Burns right now. Max Malins is also a U20 World Cup winner (OK a runner up as a 10).

Even if he has all the ability in the world, it's not been tested at anything close to the highest level so for him to be described as fourth choice is just insane.

I will note that the exact wording that Eddie uses is, "We see enough about him to be the fourth-choice 10 in our squad." He's not saying he's the fourth best in the country, just that they see enough promise for him to be the fourth choice in this squad.

Puja

this, 4th choice out of 4 when it comes to running training ground moves.
Injuries to Ford, Faz and Loz Will not see Smith playing for England

[Scrumhead]

Well either way I guess it bodes well for the future.

We seem to developing some good options in the half-back positions:

9. Maunder / Townsend / Mitchell / Brand / Randall
10. Malins / Smith / Grayson

A few of those may not make it, but to have 5 young English 9s looking promising can only be a good thing.

[Epaminondas Pules]

You've got Snow and Maunder jnr at Exeter alone coming through next.

[Puja]

We're just setting up for a team where our subs bench will just be brothers coming on to replace brothers: Curry comes on for Curry, Maunder comes on for Maunder, Ford comes on for Fo... actually, maybe not.

Puja

[twitchy]

Interview with robson. He says he has been working on his pace and sprints with darren campbell.


http://imgur.com/a/u78ue#BjTNFZj

[Puja]

Interview with robson. He says he has been working on his pace and sprints with darren campbell.


http://imgur.com/a/u78ue#BjTNFZj

I think he needs to be seeing off Simpson this year. He needs to be Wasps' undisputed first choice and not have a season like last year where he went missing too often and kept getting dropped to the bench.

Of course, Simpson may have an opinion on that too, but it's what Robson needs to aim for. On last season, he's still a poor man's Ben Youngs.

Puja

[fivepointer]

Robson was outstanding in the early part of last season. He was easily the best SH in the country. His form tailed off a bit in the 2nd half of the season but for quite a time he was playing at a consistently high standard. His challenge is to iron out the errors and produce greater all round consistency. When he's playing well, i reckon he's streets ahead of any other SH we've got.

[Puja]

Robson was outstanding in the early part of last season. He was easily the best SH in the country. His form tailed off a bit in the 2nd half of the season but for quite a time he was playing at a consistently high standard. His challenge is to iron out the errors and produce greater all round consistency. When he's playing well, i reckon he's streets ahead of any other SH we've got.

Something that could be said about Youngs, Care, Spencer... not Wigglesworth though.

Puja