Super Rugby Axes 3 !!

[rowan]

The Sharks-Saracens game was a glorified training run at best. Super Rugby teams have in fact won the vast majority of their encounters with European club teams, even though most of these were played in Europe during the European season, but they have become increasingly farcical over the years. That's why I reference that game 20 years ago, because it was taken very seriously by both teams, which were pretty much at full strength. I think France tried to revive this annual "world championship" fixture recently, but it wasn't taken very seriously, the Sharks stood in for whoever were the actual Super Rugby champs, went to France & won. But I am pretty sure if wasn't played last year. Anyway, speaking of the Sharks, they seem to have won a number of games against top European club sides lately: http://www.superxv.com/sharks-comfortab ... in-france/

[Puja]

The Sharks-Saracens game was a glorified training run at best. Super Rugby teams have in fact won the vast majority of their encounters with European club teams, even though most of these were played in Europe during the European season, but they have become increasingly farcical over the years. That's why I reference that game 20 years ago, because it was taken very seriously by both teams, which were pretty much at full strength. I think France tried to revive this annual "world championship" fixture recently, but it wasn't taken very seriously, the Sharks stood in for whoever were the actual Super Rugby champs, went to France & won. But I am pretty sure if wasn't played last year. Anyway, speaking of the Sharks, they seem to have won a number of games against top European club sides lately: http://www.superxv.com/sharks-comfortab ... in-france/

Yeah, the problem with that is that "in the European season" normally means a warm-up for the Super Rugby side and a midweek distraction for the NH side who don't want to risk their league or cup campaigns for a marketing stunt. Just look at that Sharks vs Toulouse game that you referenced - the Toulouse side is at best a mix of firsts and seconds. Practically none of these games are going to have both teams going at it full bore, except for that one between Brive and Auckland on the dawn of the professional era. It's so long ago that, not only has everyone involved retired, but Alain Penaud's son is now a successful rugby player.

Besides, if you were sending the Sharks north, then that'd be one thing, but to send two of your weakest franchises (especially after they've lost a few players to the uncertainty) and then claim that they'll "run riot" shows more than a little bit of hubris.

Puja

[rowan]

They're not my teams and it's not hubris, because I'm not a Saffa; just a neutral who expects the Super Rugby franchises to run riot against the Euro clubs in the expanded Po 14 because I've been following the game for a long time and have seen how Super Rugby franchises have dominated their encounters with Euro clubs in the past. So that's an estimation based on experience, not excessive pride.

[Puja]

They're not my teams and it's not hubris, because I'm not a Saffa; just a neutral who expects the Super Rugby franchises to run riot against the Euro clubs in the expanded Po 14 because I've been following the game for a long time and have seen how Super Rugby franchises have dominated their encounters with Euro clubs in the past. So that's an estimation based on experience, not excessive pride.

This "experience" that you're basing this on is from a variety of Anglo-SA and Franco-SA matches that a) had either or both sides being thoroughly disinterested, b) didn't exactly show "domination", c) are from several years ago, and d) have never featured a Welsh, Scottish or Irish side, nor for that matter either of the Cheetahs or Kings.

I think you're massively underestimating the quality of some of the players in the Pro 12. Yes, we like to mock them and I'm certain that I'll never hear the end of it for having defended them, but there is some quality there. For example, Leinster have 12 out of the 23 that played and beat NZ for Ireland, and 5 of them went on to beat NZ again for the Lions. Compare that to the Kings, whose sole international in their remaining squad is Dries van Schalkwyk, an Italian international poached from the worst team in the Pro 12, Zebre. Zebre, incidentally, still have 5 players who started the victory over South Africa last year, even without van Schalkwyk.

The Cheetahs aren't much better with 25 Springbok caps between 4 players (plus two Namibian internationals). Hell, Dragons have more Springbok caps in Zane Kirchner than the Cheetahs and Kings combined!

I think your bias is showing more than your experience, but I'll wait until after the first few rounds of the Pro 14 to come back to this, when we shall finally have some worthwhile NH/SH games to back up these opinions. Cheetahs get Ulster and Munster first up, with Kings getting Scarlets and Connacht. That'll give us a better lie of the land.

Puja

[rowan]

Sure, and it was bias not experience which led me to predict the Southern Hemisphere would dominate the last World Cup despite everyone on the European-based forum I was using at the time dismissing this out of hand and pointing to results in the AIs. England - Ireland final many of them predicted. They never forgave me for being right, which is why I'm over here now. Well, as I say, Northern Hemisphere rugby does its talking on paper. Southern Hemisphere rugby does its talking on the pitch.

[Puja]

We'll see.

Puja

[rowan]

This isn't going away . . .

The Western Australian (WA) government has threatened to bankrupt the Australian Rugby Union (ARU) if they don’t reinstate the Western Force in Super Rugby.

The ARU’s decision to chop the Force has not been a popular one, and the issue looks set to play out in the courts on multiple fronts.

Rugby Western Australia, with the support of billionaire mining magnate Andrew Forrest, will know Wednesday whether they can appeal the Force’s axing in the New South Wales Supreme Court.

And WA Premier Mark McGowan has written to ARU CEO Bill Pulver to inform him the state is getting legal advice on the prospect of suing the ARU over the Force’s axing unless the team is reinstated.

McGowen said $17 million was spent on new headquarters for the Force and $95 million invested on redeveloping the team’s home ground nib Stadium in Perth.

He said these hefty investments were made with an expectation and understanding that the Force would continue to be part of the Super Rugby tournament.

McGowen said if the court action bankrupts the ARU, it would be their own fault.

“My ultimatum to the ARU is this – reinstate the Force or we’ll use every tool at our disposal to get our money back,” he told AAP on Monday.

“And if that means the ARU goes bankrupt, so be it.”

Fans convened at the Force’s headquarters on Sunday to protest the decision to axe the franchise and continue the loud advocacy for their team that they have carried through the process.

Gathered at RugbyWA HQ, supporters wore Force gear, held placquards and posted the results to social media, keen to try and catch the national body’s attention.

The start of the rally was pushed back, according to attendees, as more people began to turn up to support their franchise’s hopes of survival.

Forrest said the decision to axe the Force lacked financial merit and hinted that the franchise could play elsewhere if unsuccessful in their Supreme Court appeal.

[rowan]

Latest:

Rugby Western Australia has been granted the chance to appeal against the Western Force's Super Rugby axing, with an appeal being heard on Wednesday.

The Force met the Australian Rugby Union (ARU) in court on Wednesday and it didn't take long for the Supreme Court to grant the West Australian body leave for appeal against the arbitration decision that went against them, allowing the governing body to move to axe the franchise.

Its appeal will be heard on Wednesday, after written submissions from the Force and ARU were reviewed.

Billionaire backer Andrew Forrest met with ARU board members in Adelaide on Tuesday, with the national body turning down an offer of grassroots investment believed to be $50 million, to keep the Force alive.

The Force have said they would look into Asia should their appeal fail, with Forrest saying the ARU had agreed to support that bid in their meeting on Tuesday.

RugbyWA are arguing the ARU did not have the right to axe the Force under the terms of an alignment deal that was struck in 2016.

In that deal, which was effectively a takeover, the ARU guaranteed the Force's future until at least 2020 when the broadcast deal ended.

But the ARU successfully argued in arbitration that the broadcast deal has since been renegotiated, since the Super Rugby tournament will be restructured from 18 participating teams to to 15.

With the broadcast deal tweaked because there are fewer teams in the competition, the ARU claim they had the right to axe the Force.

The size of Forrest's offer to the ARU has stunned the rugby public.

Forrest also guaranteed to bankroll any potential future losses by the Force.

But the ARU said it is impossible for them to reinstate the Force because SANZAAR had already eliminated a 16-team Super Rugby tournament for a numerous reasons.

"These factors included the extensive cost and limited appeal of a 16-team round-robin competition, player welfare issues due to extra travel requirements, and the loss of popular home and away 'derbies' in each country," ARU chairman Cameron Clyne told AAP.

"We were genuinely appreciative of Andrew's generous offer to back the Western Force and Australian Rugby.

"However, given the position we are in, we are unable to work towards retaining five teams in Super Rugby."

[rowan]

Spain, Germany & Canada for Pro 14 as well? It'll end up more stretched than Super Rugby!

The inclusion of a side from the United States has long been mooted and explored while there have been overtures from Germany and Spain, and Canada is seen as a potential option. The Pro14 is not looking for a club armed with a rich benefactor and dozens of foreign recruits but a team backed by its union that would fulfil World Rugby’s brief of expanding the game.

http://t2rugby.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=363&start=1175

[rowan]

Latest:

Rumours are circulating that more South African franchises want to join the expanded PRO14 competition, according to media reports.

South African-based sides the Cheetahs and Southern Kings are taking part in their opening PRO14 fixtures this weekend. The Cheetahs face Ulster in Belfast and the Southern Kings face the Scarlets.

The Times reports that the Johannesburg-based Super Rugby finalists the Lions and the Sharks, who are based in Durban, have both written to the South African Rugby Union and expressed their interest in following the Cheetahs and Kings' lead by playing in a Northern Hemisphere club competition.

It is unlikely that they will be accomodated in the Premiership or Top 14, however.

The Cheetahs and Southern Kings were axed from a now reduced Super Rugby competition, along with Australia’s Western Force.

[rowan]

In that case the next step is pretty obvious, right? South Africa breaks away from Super Rugby entirely and joins European competition at provincial franchise level, while New Zealand and Australia run a Pacific Rim competition including Japan and perhaps Fiji. The only question then is which direction would Argentina go in? Were it the Pacific region (which they're not actually quite part of) they could get a second team. Bring back the Force, and that's 14 right there. No disrespect intended to SA, either. It's been great watching our teams in action against theirs, but they need to go in one direction or the other, and perhaps they'll fare better in Europe. Presumably the Rugby Championship would not be effected.

[Spiffy]

In their first Pro 14 game the Cheetahs were humped 42-19 by an under-strength Ulster XV.

[rowan]

Surprised to hear that, Spiffy. Were the Cheetahs at full strength themselves?

Anyway, it'll take a little time for them and the Kings to adjust. It's incredible that they're already involved this year, wouldn't you say? I'd have thought they start in 2018.

[rowan]

Presumably the Rugby Championship would not be effected.

I am sure the Boks would rather stick with this than join the 6 Nations, which is a European competition and probably wouldn't welcome them anyway. Any SA rugby fan will tell you that the ABs are the ultimate challenge. In fact, if South African franchises broke away from Super Rugby altogether and joined an expanded Pro 14 league en masse, that might just add a touch of freshness to NZ - SA encounters at test level.

[morepork]

Ha Ha.

[Puja]

They're not my teams and it's not hubris, because I'm not a Saffa; just a neutral who expects the Super Rugby franchises to run riot against the Euro clubs in the expanded Po 14 because I've been following the game for a long time and have seen how Super Rugby franchises have dominated their encounters with Euro clubs in the past. So that's an estimation based on experience, not excessive pride.

Ulster 42-19 Cheetahs
Scarlets 57-10 Kings

Soooooo... how's the running riot coming along?

Puja

[rowan]

Already answered that a few posts above, Puja. Early days but, yes, surprised by those scorelines nonetheless.

However, let's wait a while before passing judgement.

[Puja]

Already answered that a few posts above, Puja. Early days but, yes, surprised by those scorelines nonetheless.

However, let's wait a while before passing judgement.

I believe I mentioned that it was a big ask for them to adjust so quickly,especially after losing players to the uncertainty, and was pooh-poohed with a reassertion that they'd "run riot" and that "Northern Hemisphere rugby does its talking on paper. Southern Hemisphere rugby does its talking on the pitch".

However, let's give them another couple of rounds and see how your prediction goes.

Puja

[morepork]

Never let data stand in the way of a good hypothesis.

[Spiffy]

Surprised to hear that, Spiffy. Were the Cheetahs at full strength themselves?

Anyway, it'll take a little time for them and the Kings to adjust. It's incredible that they're already involved this year, wouldn't you say? I'd have thought they start in 2018.

I have not seen enough of the Cheetahs to know if they were full strength or not. Their backs were noticibly faster than their Ulster counterparts. Ironically, the Ulster win was based to a large extent on the performance of a couple of S. Africans in the backrow - Deysel and Marcel Coetzee. A pair of ball carrying monsters. The latter has bulked up and still looks fully capable of playing for the Boks in any of the backrow positions.

[Lizard]

It's also fair to point out that the Cheetahs and Kings have had only a 7 week "off-season." I don't think we can accurately judge things until next year, when they enter the league on a level pegging, player fatigue-wise.

[rowan]

Yes, I really didn't think they were going to be involved until next year. They're basically playing in their second championship of the same season. That's ridiculous. Nonetheless, I was surprised by the scorelines.

Meanwhile, the Supreme Court in Sydney have dismissed the Western Force's appeal against their Super Rugby axing. So that's pretty much it for the Force - unless they do go ahead and join Asia somehow.

[Puja]

It's also fair to point out that the Cheetahs and Kings have had only a 7 week "off-season." I don't think we can accurately judge things until next year, when they enter the league on a level pegging, player fatigue-wise.

And also the Kings have lost so many players to the uncertainty that they've actually had to borrow 4 from the Sharks just to turn out a XXIII. They will definitely be better next year.

Puja

[rowan]

Latest:

THE besieged Australian Rugby Union will be forced to reveal full documentation and potentially sensitive email trails over the messy culling of the Western Force after Wednesday’s decision to launch a Senate inquiry into the future of the code in this country.

Western Australian Senator Linda Reynolds had her motion for an inquiry carried after joining criticism of the ARU’s decision-making processes and lack of transparency when removing the Force from Super Rugby.

The ARU has already taken a big step itself by revealing late on Tuesday that the sport’s governing body would have been broke by late 2019 and potentially in worse-case debt of $26 million by the end of 2020 if five Super Rugby clubs had been retained.

https://www.foxsports.com.au/rugby/west ... 00f65e5d4b

[morepork]

Already answered that a few posts above, Puja. Early days but, yes, surprised by those scorelines nonetheless.

However, let's wait a while before passing judgement.

I believe I mentioned that it was a big ask for them to adjust so quickly,especially after losing players to the uncertainty, and was pooh-poohed with a reassertion that they'd "run riot" and that "Northern Hemisphere rugby does its talking on paper. Southern Hemisphere rugby does its talking on the pitch".

However, let's give them another couple of rounds and see how your prediction goes.

Puja

See Rowan? That's how you do it. Maturity and humility.