EPS Watch / Player Form Thread

[Banquo]

Let's face it, the Lions tour always sets a few back, whether by injury, loss of form or mental fatigue. Eddie's assessment that those four need the break means little long-term, I'd guess. I'm delighted that there aren't half a dozen more at this stage. There could be more to come after the training camp, of course.

The absence of a 3rd SH worries me a lot.

The issue with the scrum-half is who would it be? Maunder and Spencer aren't playing, Robson's not playing well enough, Wigglesworth is a waste of a space - who else is there?

Puja

Is that 'four try Robson' who was injured for last weekends game?

[Banquo]

I see Eddie has said JJ has things in his game to work on- He's dropped all right, ditto Sinckler. Nuts imo.

[Banquo]

It's interesting, that's for sure.

I do hope that Joseph and Sinckler are absent for a good reason, and not because they're going to be left out... That wouldn't be good.

Out of that lot, we're looking at:

Mako, George, Cole
Itoje, Launch
Robshaw, Billy, Underhill
Youngs, Ford
Daly, Te'o, Slade, Nowell
Watson

As our best bet. And I wouldn't be happy with that midfield...

Faz will play, for sure. Faz'n'Teo I'd reckon.

[fivepointer]

“Some guys need to work on their games and we’ve had those discussion with them, other guys are coming back from injuries and need some game time and we don’t think they’d benefit from being with England squad at the moment.”

AI squad to be announced on 26 October, so this group isnt definitive and will change. Injuries are bound to play a part between now and then. I'm sure JJ and Sinckler will be involved later on.

[Banquo]

This smacks of Eddie mind-games again. Think about it - he's entitled to call up 45 players, so there's no reason that he couldn't have Sinckler, Joseph, Haskell, etc. It's not like he'd have to not have any of his other selections.

I reckon he's picked people who he thinks have another 10% in them and has decided he'd rather put a rocket up their a*ses than have them run a few training moves in a two day camp. Joseph especially - he is doing well and is still showing as a good player, but he's got the potential to be dominating the AP rather than just showing up as "good enough". I think Eddie wants the JJ that tore Toulouse apart when Burt was ignoring him.

Puja

How can you 'dominate' at 13 without a fully functioning side round you? This sort of comment utterly baffles me.

[Scrumhead]

This smacks of Eddie mind-games again. Think about it - he's entitled to call up 45 players, so there's no reason that he couldn't have Sinckler, Joseph, Haskell, etc. It's not like he'd have to not have any of his other selections.

I reckon he's picked people who he thinks have another 10% in them and has decided he'd rather put a rocket up their a*ses than have them run a few training moves in a two day camp. Joseph especially - he is doing well and is still showing as a good player, but he's got the potential to be dominating the AP rather than just showing up as "good enough". I think Eddie wants the JJ that tore Toulouse apart when Burt was ignoring him.

Puja

He is entitled to call-up 45 players, but I don't recall him ever doing so for a training camp?

[Banquo]

On a separate note, anyone hear Billy's interview on R2 the other day...included such gems as....'I don't stretch, and I don't see the point of it; I'm really really inflexible, so it's no use'. Srsly Billy!!

[Adam_P]

It's interesting, that's for sure.

I do hope that Joseph and Sinckler are absent for a good reason, and not because they're going to be left out... That wouldn't be good.

Out of that lot, we're looking at:

Mako, George, Cole
Itoje, Launch
Robshaw, Billy, Underhill
Youngs, Ford
Daly, Te'o, Slade, Nowell
Watson

As our best bet. And I wouldn't be happy with that midfield...

Faz will play, for sure. Faz'n'Teo I'd reckon.

And Lawes has to start, playing better than both Itoje and Launch.

[Mikey Brown]

I thought there was pretty contradictory wisdom on stretching these days? I'm torn between just making something up here to support my argument or waiting for Which Tyler to come along and tell I'm a moron/genius.

I can't remember if I actually posted it but I was also wondering what it is that Robson is doing so poorly to not even be worth a run off the bench. He can't seriously have a worse pass? Is his decision making that bad?

If his decision is mainly to jitter around before throwing a hospital pass then he's at least on par with the incumbent. I watched Leicester the other day and Youngs did 3 or 4 bullet passes in a row, straight to Ford's hands, who was putting people through gaps all over the place. The commentator noted that this was the classic Youngs/Ford half-back combo that we all know and love. He didn't do it again.

[Timbo]

While I don't think Eddie is specifically resting anyone per se, he did reiterate about 10 times in his press conference that this is just a training squad and that the Autumn Int squad may be a bit different. He also said that some Lions who are in this squad may still be rested for the actual matches this autumn...

So as per with Eddie, who the feck knows?

[Banquo]

While I don't think Eddie is specifically resting anyone per se, he did reiterate about 10 times in his press conference that this is just a training squad and that the Autumn Int squad may be a bit different. He also said that some Lions who are in this squad may still be rested for the actual matches this autumn...

So as per with Eddie, who the feck knows?

he also specifically said that JJ and Sinckler have things to work on in their game (unlike Hartley, say ). Clear to me they are canned.

[Puja]

Let's face it, the Lions tour always sets a few back, whether by injury, loss of form or mental fatigue. Eddie's assessment that those four need the break means little long-term, I'd guess. I'm delighted that there aren't half a dozen more at this stage. There could be more to come after the training camp, of course.

The absence of a 3rd SH worries me a lot.

The issue with the scrum-half is who would it be? Maunder and Spencer aren't playing, Robson's not playing well enough, Wigglesworth is a waste of a space - who else is there?

Puja

Is that 'four try Robson' who was injured for last weekends game?

I was thinking more of 'two chargedown and loopy passing Robson' - I think they're related.

This smacks of Eddie mind-games again. Think about it - he's entitled to call up 45 players, so there's no reason that he couldn't have Sinckler, Joseph, Haskell, etc. It's not like he'd have to not have any of his other selections.

I reckon he's picked people who he thinks have another 10% in them and has decided he'd rather put a rocket up their a*ses than have them run a few training moves in a two day camp. Joseph especially - he is doing well and is still showing as a good player, but he's got the potential to be dominating the AP rather than just showing up as "good enough". I think Eddie wants the JJ that tore Toulouse apart when Burt was ignoring him.

Puja

How can you 'dominate' at 13 without a fully functioning side round you? This sort of comment utterly baffles me.

I'm including the end of last season in this - when was the last time you looked at a Joseph game and thought, "Wow!" Cause he's definitely capable of wow.

Puja

[Banquo]

The issue with the scrum-half is who would it be? Maunder and Spencer aren't playing, Robson's not playing well enough, Wigglesworth is a waste of a space - who else is there?

Puja

Is that 'four try Robson' who was injured for last weekends game?

I was thinking more of 'two chargedown and loopy passing Robson' - I think they're related.

This smacks of Eddie mind-games again. Think about it - he's entitled to call up 45 players, so there's no reason that he couldn't have Sinckler, Joseph, Haskell, etc. It's not like he'd have to not have any of his other selections.

I reckon he's picked people who he thinks have another 10% in them and has decided he'd rather put a rocket up their a*ses than have them run a few training moves in a two day camp. Joseph especially - he is doing well and is still showing as a good player, but he's got the potential to be dominating the AP rather than just showing up as "good enough". I think Eddie wants the JJ that tore Toulouse apart when Burt was ignoring him.

Puja

How can you 'dominate' at 13 without a fully functioning side round you? This sort of comment utterly baffles me.

I'm including the end of last season in this - when was the last time you looked at a Joseph game and thought, "Wow!" Cause he's definitely capable of wow.

Puja

On Robson, was that this season, in which case fair enough, though Youngs has hardly been on fire.

On JJ pretty much every game in defence. The concept of an outside back 'dominating' (maybe its me, but can we not use that word?) any game, let alone in a malfunctioning side is a bit odd (see Bath at the end of last season); mind, he was pretty handy v Scotland, for example. If you look at the back lines he has been operating in, and in the sides he has played in as a whole, you wouldn't expect to see flashing breaks-- you see him continually having to 'force attacks' in no space. Maybe Eddie is just accepting the other limitations in the team; I'd pick JJ just for his defence tbh though. Out of interest, what 13's are regularly making flashing breaks in the AP (assuming that is what you are awaiting?). And even if I agreed that, to simplify, 'he's not in great nick', his not great nick is still better than others' good in my view. If its a dropping, its a bit crass.

[Oakboy]

While I don't think Eddie is specifically resting anyone per se, he did reiterate about 10 times in his press conference that this is just a training squad and that the Autumn Int squad may be a bit different. He also said that some Lions who are in this squad may still be rested for the actual matches this autumn...

So as per with Eddie, who the feck knows?

he also specifically said that JJ and Sinckler have things to work on in their game (unlike Hartley, say ). Clear to me they are canned.

I still can't be sure of the extent to which Eddie thinks JJ is unsuitable or off-form. Even a comment like 'has things to work on in his game' doesn't make it clear. It coincides (more or less) with him telling Slade to concentrate on playing at 13. Also, if Farrell is to play at 12, as seems very likely, which 13 out of Slade, Daly or T'eo suits his game best?

[Mikey Brown]

What a horrible question.

[Timbo]

While I don't think Eddie is specifically resting anyone per se, he did reiterate about 10 times in his press conference that this is just a training squad and that the Autumn Int squad may be a bit different. He also said that some Lions who are in this squad may still be rested for the actual matches this autumn...

So as per with Eddie, who the feck knows?

he also specifically said that JJ and Sinckler have things to work on in their game (unlike Hartley, say ). Clear to me they are canned.

Oh I agree, they're dropped. But whether he would have dropped them if he had a big game at the wkend...not so sure. He's obviously looking for a reaction from these blokes.

[Banquo]

While I don't think Eddie is specifically resting anyone per se, he did reiterate about 10 times in his press conference that this is just a training squad and that the Autumn Int squad may be a bit different. He also said that some Lions who are in this squad may still be rested for the actual matches this autumn...

So as per with Eddie, who the feck knows?

he also specifically said that JJ and Sinckler have things to work on in their game (unlike Hartley, say ). Clear to me they are canned.

I still can't be sure of the extent to which Eddie thinks JJ is unsuitable or off-form. Even a comment like 'has things to work on in his game' doesn't make it clear. It coincides (more or less) with him telling Slade to concentrate on playing at 13. Also, if Farrell is to play at 12, as seems very likely, which 13 out of Slade, Daly or T'eo suits his game best?

There are off-form/no form players picked in that squad- seems unequivocal, and at the very best for JJ indicates he's not in the core and/leadership team.

Probably Teo.

[Banquo]

While I don't think Eddie is specifically resting anyone per se, he did reiterate about 10 times in his press conference that this is just a training squad and that the Autumn Int squad may be a bit different. He also said that some Lions who are in this squad may still be rested for the actual matches this autumn...

So as per with Eddie, who the feck knows?

he also specifically said that JJ and Sinckler have things to work on in their game (unlike Hartley, say ). Clear to me they are canned.

Oh I agree, they're dropped. But whether he would have dropped them if he had a big game at the wkend...not so sure. He's obviously looking for a reaction from these blokes.

Not sure. More to it than meets the eye.

[TheNomad]

A lack of Marchant and Simmonds is disappointing

Clifford too...possibly Ribbans?

[Banquo]

Pretty telling, for me.."
This camp in Oxford is a really positive opportunity for the group to come back together and sharpen our focus and preparation ahead of our first match against Argentina," Jones said.

"This is our most important game this year and we want the players to come away from camp having trained well with a clear plan of how we want to play and win against the Pumas."

[Timbo]

Personally, I'm a big fan of Joseph, but I do think it's fair to question where his attacking game is at the moment. He can't be a 13 that only makes things happen when he has time and space to operate in. Hes capable of more imo.

[Banquo]

Personally, I'm a big fan of Joseph, but I do think it's fair to question where his attacking game is at the moment. He can't be a 13 that only makes things happen when he has time and space to operate in. Hes capable of more imo.

He does offer more though, he has been distributing a lot in midfield, and trying a lot of very effective grubbers through. Otherwise he's been very well marked in the THREE games Bath have played, with Priestland playing as a pivot in attack, in complete contrast to the style under Ford.

How do you suggest he produce 'more'?

As an addendum, Marchant's attacking numbers look excellent, but he also doesn't make the squad.

[Which Tyler]

I thought there was pretty contradictory wisdom on stretching these days? I'm torn between just making something up here to support my argument or waiting for Which Tyler to come along and tell I'm a moron/genius.

There's not much contradictory about best-practice; the contradiction only comes from those with a dogmatic belief in what they were taught before we knew any better.

Stretching pre-match gives you a slight increased risk of injury. It does nothing to help you wamr up or perform better, but makes the muscles slightly longer than your brain thinks they are. Overall it's considered worth doing if you get enough of a spychological advantage from "feeling ready"; but shouldn't be taught as a thing to encourage.

Stretching post-match can slightly help reduce your risk of cramp, and the severity of muscle soreness the following day. If you tend not to suffer cramp, and don't really care about a 2-3% reduction in DOMS, then you don't really need to worry about it.

Stretching to actually increase the length of the muscle at rest requires a hell of a lot of work over the course of years, and will increase your range of motion. It may increase that range of motion by a few percent over a decade or so, or it may improve it significantly over a year or so - everyone's different. But whilst doing so, you increase your risk of injury; and generally speaking, the later in life you leave it (ideally start in adolesence, and allow the muscles to maintain their length compared to the bones), the less significant any changes will be.

For Billy per se - he's flexible enough to do his job; and whilst a little extra felxibility wouldn't go amiss; the right time for him to have worked on that is about 10-12 years ago.



On JJ - I just do'nt see what his critics see in him. If his handling / distribution is what he's been asked to work on - them he's (IMO) shown enough in the first 3 weeks to suggest that he is doing so, as he stands at first receiver qutie a bit.

[Banquo]

I thought there was pretty contradictory wisdom on stretching these days? I'm torn between just making something up here to support my argument or waiting for Which Tyler to come along and tell I'm a moron/genius.

There's not much contradictory about best-practice; the contradiction only comes from those with a dogmatic belief in what they were taught before we knew any better.

Stretching pre-match gives you a slight increased risk of injury. It does nothing to help you wamr up or perform better, but makes the muscles slightly longer than your brain thinks they are. Overall it's considered worth doing if you get enough of a spychological advantage from "feeling ready"; but shouldn't be taught as a thing to encourage.

Stretching post-match can slightly help reduce your risk of cramp, and the severity of muscle soreness the following day. If you tend not to suffer cramp, and don't really care about a 2-3% reduction in DOMS, then you don't really need to worry about it.

Stretching to actually increase the length of the muscle at rest requires a hell of a lot of work over the course of years, and will increase your range of motion. It may increase that range of motion by a few percent over a decade or so, or it may improve it significantly over a year or so - everyone's different. But whilst doing so, you increase your risk of injury; and generally speaking, the later in life you leave it (ideally start in adolesence, and allow the muscles to maintain their length compared to the bones), the less significant any changes will be.

For Billy per se - he's flexible enough to do his job; and whilst a little extra felxibility wouldn't go amiss; the right time for him to have worked on that is about 10-12 years ago.



On JJ - I just do'nt see what his critics see in him. If his handling / distribution is what he's been asked to work on - them he's (IMO) shown enough in the first 3 weeks to suggest that he is doing so, as he stands at first receiver qutie a bit.

That's me told; just sounded really crass the way Billy put it- does this apply to dynamic stretching as part of a warm up and warm down?
(these guys seem to be still in favour of stretching as part of warm down at least http://rugbyready.worldrugby.org/?section=76 ). I have to ask though, can Billy really not improve his flexibility now? Maybe its also what does 'stretching' mean.

Seems to me the critics want JJ to be making flashing breaks and scoring tries for fun. I'm not sure he can do that all by himself.

[Mellsblue]

JJ is a massive surprise. If it is a straight drop rather than a request from Bath etc, I'd be very, very disappointed. Sinkler is a strange one, too. I had hope of him being first choice by the World Cup. Williams must've been seriously impressive in Argentina.

On Billy's interview on R2, I heard the first five mins. Now, we all know Billy's not the sharpest but for Chris Evans to be taking the piss out of professional, world class athlete about his pre-match routine was effing ridiculous. You're a bloody aging DJ and failed Top Gear presenter. At Billy's age you were driving a forklift around a warehouse and doing local radio. At twice his age you spent a year pissed, travelling round the world shagging Billie Piper (I'll admit to a slight bit of jealousy here) just because you've now run a couple of half marathons what gives you the right to laugh at a pro-rugby player. Smug prat. Rant over.