EPS Watch / Player Form Thread

[Timbo]

Personally, I'm a big fan of Joseph, but I do think it's fair to question where his attacking game is at the moment. He can't be a 13 that only makes things happen when he has time and space to operate in. Hes capable of more imo.

He does offer more though, he has been distributing a lot in midfield, and trying a lot of very effective grubbers through. Otherwise he's been very well marked in the THREE games Bath have played, with Priestland playing as a pivot in attack, in complete contrast to the style under Ford.

How do you suggest he produce 'more'?

As an addendum, Marchant's attacking numbers look excellent, but he also doesn't make the squad.

His distribution has improved, as has his short range kicking game. Neither are yet really top class though. His running game has stagnated a bit imo...As an international class 13 being heavily marked is only a slight mitigation, he needs to make things happen more often.

[Banquo]

Personally, I'm a big fan of Joseph, but I do think it's fair to question where his attacking game is at the moment. He can't be a 13 that only makes things happen when he has time and space to operate in. Hes capable of more imo.

He does offer more though, he has been distributing a lot in midfield, and trying a lot of very effective grubbers through. Otherwise he's been very well marked in the THREE games Bath have played, with Priestland playing as a pivot in attack, in complete contrast to the style under Ford.

How do you suggest he produce 'more'?

As an addendum, Marchant's attacking numbers look excellent, but he also doesn't make the squad.

His distribution has improved, as has his short range kicking game. Neither are yet really top class though. His running game has stagnated a bit imo...As an international class 13 being heavily marked is only a slight mitigation, he needs to make things happen more often.

How? and what does making things happen mean? Making breaks? Putting players away outside him?

He goes looking for work an awful lot, is putting people into space, and is making defences turn. Further, this 'judgement' is based on what, 3 games this season, in a Bath team with a new backline, who have been patchy as a whole.

[Mellsblue]

Ive just had another worry. With no JJ and with Slade in and Eddie stating he should concentrate on 13......you have Ford - Farrell - Slade and no real running threat, or Farrell - Teo - Slade/Ford - Farrell- Teo and an isolated (quality) playmaker. I'm not sure I like the balance of any of those options.

[Banquo]

Ive just had another worry. With no JJ and with Slade in and Eddie stating he should concentrate on 13......you have Ford - Farrell - Slade and no real running threat, or Farrell - Teo - Slade/Ford - Farrell- Teo and an isolated (quality) playmaker. I'm not sure I like the balance of any of those options.

We all know F and F will be starting, so this is what will unfold (unless Daly is in the mix there).

ah well.

[Mellsblue]

Ive just had another worry. With no JJ and with Slade in and Eddie stating he should concentrate on 13......you have Ford - Farrell - Slade and no real running threat, or Farrell - Teo - Slade/Ford - Farrell- Teo and an isolated (quality) playmaker. I'm not sure I like the balance of any of those options.

We all know F and F will be starting, so this is what will unfold (unless Daly is in the mix there).

ah well.

Ah, yes. I'd forgotten about Daly. I've just become used to thinking of him as wing at test level. I suppose he's the closest replacement but his defence certainly isn't as good - one on one or organisationally. It also probably means one of Nowell or Brown in the back three slowing it all down. May - Daly - Watson outside Joseph would be very exciting.

[belgarion]

I'm just going to wait until Oct 26 when the squad for the AIs is announced after which I will either
be OTT enthusiastic & hopeful or suicidally depressed. Until then this is just a training squad & Eddie being Eddie

[Scrumhead]

I'm just going to wait until Oct 26 when the squad for the AIs is announced after which I will either
be OTT enthusiastic & hopeful or suicidally depressed. Until then this is just a training squad & Eddie being Eddie

My moods tend to be less extreme, but in principle, I agree ...

A couple of interesting observations on the Bath team this weekend. Jack Walker is making his first Premiership start, Freddie Burns is making his first start (for Bath) at fullback and Charlie Ewels is plaing at 6.

Elsewhere, good to see Johnny Williams back for London Irish.

[Which Tyler]

That's me told; just sounded really crass the way Billy put it- does this apply to dynamic stretching as part of a warm up and warm down?
(these guys seem to be still in favour of stretching as part of warm down at least http://rugbyready.worldrugby.org/?section=76 ). I have to ask though, can Billy really not improve his flexibility now? Maybe its also what does 'stretching' mean.

Seems to me the critics want JJ to be making flashing breaks and scoring tries for fun. I'm not sure he can do that all by himself.

Stretching post-match can be part of the warm-down, a few hours later, or before bed; the closer to when the individual tends to cramp up the better.

Billy can improve his felxibility; but he'd increase his risk of injury whilst doing so; and it'll be a long, hard road for him, to make a relatively minimal gain.

Stretching means increasing the length of the muscles, and therefore the mobility of the joint (possibly at the expence of stability / strength).

[Puja]

Is that 'four try Robson' who was injured for last weekends game?

I was thinking more of 'two chargedown and loopy passing Robson' - I think they're related.

How can you 'dominate' at 13 without a fully functioning side round you? This sort of comment utterly baffles me.

I'm including the end of last season in this - when was the last time you looked at a Joseph game and thought, "Wow!" Cause he's definitely capable of wow.

Puja

On Robson, was that this season, in which case fair enough, though Youngs has hardly been on fire.

On JJ pretty much every game in defence. The concept of an outside back 'dominating' (maybe its me, but can we not use that word?) any game, let alone in a malfunctioning side is a bit odd (see Bath at the end of last season); mind, he was pretty handy v Scotland, for example. If you look at the back lines he has been operating in, and in the sides he has played in as a whole, you wouldn't expect to see flashing breaks-- you see him continually having to 'force attacks' in no space. Maybe Eddie is just accepting the other limitations in the team; I'd pick JJ just for his defence tbh though. Out of interest, what 13's are regularly making flashing breaks in the AP (assuming that is what you are awaiting?). And even if I agreed that, to simplify, 'he's not in great nick', his not great nick is still better than others' good in my view. If its a dropping, its a bit crass.

That's the thing that I think Eddie is going for - Joseph's "pretty good" is better than most players' absolute best, but there's more to be got out of him. I suspect Eddie of playing silly buggers to see if he can get a reaction, same as he did with Haskell and Itoje.

That's a guess though. The mind of Eddie is ineffable and it may be that he just doesn't fancy him.

On Robson, yes that was this season. I'd agree that he's of a par with Youngs and Care or very very slightly above, but I respect Eddie not wanting to reward good enough.

And I apologise for using the word dominate.

Puja

[Oakboy]

On Billy's interview on R2, I heard the first five mins. Now, we all know Billy's not the sharpest but for Chris Evans to be taking the piss out of professional, world class athlete about his pre-match routine was effing ridiculous. You're a bloody aging DJ and failed Top Gear presenter. At Billy's age you were driving a forklift around a warehouse and doing local radio. At twice his age you spent a year pissed, travelling round the world shagging Billie Piper (I'll admit to a slight bit of jealousy here) just because you've now run a couple of half marathons what gives you the right to laugh at a pro-rugby player. Smug prat. Rant over.

MB, I love that. It makes me grin each time I read it. I wonder where P/D has got to. He'd be drooling over the Billie Piper reference, I'd expect!

[Banquo]

That's me told; just sounded really crass the way Billy put it- does this apply to dynamic stretching as part of a warm up and warm down?
(these guys seem to be still in favour of stretching as part of warm down at least http://rugbyready.worldrugby.org/?section=76 ). I have to ask though, can Billy really not improve his flexibility now? Maybe its also what does 'stretching' mean.

Seems to me the critics want JJ to be making flashing breaks and scoring tries for fun. I'm not sure he can do that all by himself.

Stretching post-match can be part of the warm-down, a few hours later, or before bed; the closer to when the individual tends to cramp up the better.

Billy can improve his felxibility; but he'd increase his risk of injury whilst doing so; and it'll be a long, hard road for him, to make a relatively minimal gain.

Stretching means increasing the length of the muscles, and therefore the mobility of the joint (possibly at the expence of stability / strength).

I'm thinking that to the layman or even most sports people stretching isn't used in that literal sense. But good stuff to know- I wish I hadn't spent most of my mid-twenties assiduously stretching my weak left hamstring pre game only for it to pull every other match! (and now knowing it was really rooted in a very stiff lower back)

[Banquo]

JJ is a massive surprise. If it is a straight drop rather than a request from Bath etc, I'd be very, very disappointed. Sinkler is a strange one, too. I had hope of him being first choice by the World Cup. Williams must've been seriously impressive in Argentina.

On Billy's interview on R2, I heard the first five mins. Now, we all know Billy's not the sharpest but for Chris Evans to be taking the piss out of professional, world class athlete about his pre-match routine was effing ridiculous. You're a bloody aging DJ and failed Top Gear presenter. At Billy's age you were driving a forklift around a warehouse and doing local radio. At twice his age you spent a year pissed, travelling round the world shagging Billie Piper (I'll admit to a slight bit of jealousy here) just because you've now run a couple of half marathons what gives you the right to laugh at a pro-rugby player. Smug prat. Rant over.

I thought he was more incredulous than pi55 taking; pretty sure BV also amusingly dropped the f bomb. I'm not sure letting Billy chat without some chaperoning is a great idea, given what he also said re the Lions.

On Evans.....makes me laugh, is worth millions, and has seen his share of decent 'action'- and does raise a bomb for charidee. Fair play, I say- though he is marmite in extremis.

[Banquo]

Ive just had another worry. With no JJ and with Slade in and Eddie stating he should concentrate on 13......you have Ford - Farrell - Slade and no real running threat, or Farrell - Teo - Slade/Ford - Farrell- Teo and an isolated (quality) playmaker. I'm not sure I like the balance of any of those options.

We all know F and F will be starting, so this is what will unfold (unless Daly is in the mix there).

ah well.

Ah, yes. I'd forgotten about Daly. I've just become used to thinking of him as wing at test level. I suppose he's the closest replacement but his defence certainly isn't as good - one on one or organisationally. It also probably means one of Nowell or Brown in the back three slowing it all down. May - Daly - Watson outside Joseph would be very exciting.

yes to all that

[Oakboy]

That's me told; just sounded really crass the way Billy put it- does this apply to dynamic stretching as part of a warm up and warm down?
(these guys seem to be still in favour of stretching as part of warm down at least http://rugbyready.worldrugby.org/?section=76 ). I have to ask though, can Billy really not improve his flexibility now? Maybe its also what does 'stretching' mean.

Seems to me the critics want JJ to be making flashing breaks and scoring tries for fun. I'm not sure he can do that all by himself.

Stretching post-match can be part of the warm-down, a few hours later, or before bed; the closer to when the individual tends to cramp up the better.

Billy can improve his felxibility; but he'd increase his risk of injury whilst doing so; and it'll be a long, hard road for him, to make a relatively minimal gain.

Stretching means increasing the length of the muscles, and therefore the mobility of the joint (possibly at the expence of stability / strength).

WT, when I look at the muscle girth of the thighs of Billy V or Tuilagi, I wonder how much strength is required to stretch by a single millimetre. My layman's opinion would be that stretching should have been an essential element of the training regime over the last 10 years+ to maintain some degree of suppleness and whole-body balance. Is that not the case? And, is the lack of suppleness a factor in both being relatively injury-prone?

[Banquo]

I was thinking more of 'two chargedown and loopy passing Robson' - I think they're related.



I'm including the end of last season in this - when was the last time you looked at a Joseph game and thought, "Wow!" Cause he's definitely capable of wow.

Puja

On Robson, was that this season, in which case fair enough, though Youngs has hardly been on fire.

On JJ pretty much every game in defence. The concept of an outside back 'dominating' (maybe its me, but can we not use that word?) any game, let alone in a malfunctioning side is a bit odd (see Bath at the end of last season); mind, he was pretty handy v Scotland, for example. If you look at the back lines he has been operating in, and in the sides he has played in as a whole, you wouldn't expect to see flashing breaks-- you see him continually having to 'force attacks' in no space. Maybe Eddie is just accepting the other limitations in the team; I'd pick JJ just for his defence tbh though. Out of interest, what 13's are regularly making flashing breaks in the AP (assuming that is what you are awaiting?). And even if I agreed that, to simplify, 'he's not in great nick', his not great nick is still better than others' good in my view. If its a dropping, its a bit crass.

That's the thing that I think Eddie is going for - Joseph's "pretty good" is better than most players' absolute best, but there's more to be got out of him. I suspect Eddie of playing silly buggers to see if he can get a reaction, same as he did with Haskell and Itoje.

That's a guess though. The mind of Eddie is ineffable and it may be that he just doesn't fancy him.

On Robson, yes that was this season. I'd agree that he's of a par with Youngs and Care or very very slightly above, but I respect Eddie not wanting to reward good enough.

And I apologise for using the word dominate.

Puja

I'm not sure on JJ......and I don't think Eddie is. Mind, I do wonder who it was who lobbied Gatland to get JJ on the plane to NZ from the England camp, as apparently it was last minute; Gatland doesnt seem to rate him much either, prob because he wasn't so fitted to the out to in defence (but intriguingly has been doing it a lot for Bath this season, rather than the standard back off and drift that had been his trademark)

[Banquo]

meanwhile Burns starts for Bath. At 15. Bet he's chuffed.

[Timbo]

He does offer more though, he has been distributing a lot in midfield, and trying a lot of very effective grubbers through. Otherwise he's been very well marked in the THREE games Bath have played, with Priestland playing as a pivot in attack, in complete contrast to the style under Ford.

How do you suggest he produce 'more'?

As an addendum, Marchant's attacking numbers look excellent, but he also doesn't make the squad.

His distribution has improved, as has his short range kicking game. Neither are yet really top class though. His running game has stagnated a bit imo...As an international class 13 being heavily marked is only a slight mitigation, he needs to make things happen more often.

How? and what does making things happen mean? Making breaks? Putting players away outside him?

He goes looking for work an awful lot, is putting people into space, and is making defences turn. Further, this 'judgement' is based on what, 3 games this season, in a Bath team with a new backline, who have been patchy as a whole.

Either...both. There was a perfect example of his slightly anemic running game against Northampton as highlighted by BT last wkend; he received the ball fairly heavily marked, but marked by a prop and a lock, he did a little jink 5m behind the gain line, crabbed and popped a hospital pass off to Roko...personally I find that fairly indicative of that part of his game more recently. Very little attempt to engage the defence, no hard or aggressive attempt to stress the opposition. And it's not just 3 games, he got dropped by Bath at the back end of last season, because aside from making his tackles he just wasn't doing anything...anonymous...not good enough (for his level of ability).

[Banquo]

His distribution has improved, as has his short range kicking game. Neither are yet really top class though. His running game has stagnated a bit imo...As an international class 13 being heavily marked is only a slight mitigation, he needs to make things happen more often.

How? and what does making things happen mean? Making breaks? Putting players away outside him?

He goes looking for work an awful lot, is putting people into space, and is making defences turn. Further, this 'judgement' is based on what, 3 games this season, in a Bath team with a new backline, who have been patchy as a whole.

...personally I don't that fairly indicative of that part of his game more recently. Very little attempt to engage the defence, no hard or aggressive attempt to stress the opposition. And it's not just 3 games, he got dropped by Bath at the back end of last season, because aside from making his tackles he just wasn't doing anything...anonymous...not good enough (for his level of ability).

assume you mean indicative? Was he dropped by Bath, don't remember that.

Personally I think he is playing a stuttering team, and trying to force plays; maybe that has affected his confidence a little, but dropping him for players who still aren't as good as him when they are in decent form doesn't seem a good way of improving his confidence. He remains head and shoulders the best defender at 13 we have- though extending that could end up with Barritt at 12.

I think pilloring and dropping our one world class back (at top form) seems odd, and expectations are a little too high- being brilliant in a poor backline in his position is challenging.

[Mellsblue]

JJ is a massive surprise. If it is a straight drop rather than a request from Bath etc, I'd be very, very disappointed. Sinkler is a strange one, too. I had hope of him being first choice by the World Cup. Williams must've been seriously impressive in Argentina.

On Billy's interview on R2, I heard the first five mins. Now, we all know Billy's not the sharpest but for Chris Evans to be taking the piss out of professional, world class athlete about his pre-match routine was effing ridiculous. You're a bloody aging DJ and failed Top Gear presenter. At Billy's age you were driving a forklift around a warehouse and doing local radio. At twice his age you spent a year pissed, travelling round the world shagging Billie Piper (I'll admit to a slight bit of jealousy here) just because you've now run a couple of half marathons what gives you the right to laugh at a pro-rugby player. Smug prat. Rant over.

I thought he was more incredulous than pi55 taking; pretty sure BV also amusingly dropped the f bomb. I'm not sure letting Billy chat without some chaperoning is a great idea, given what he also said re the Lions.

On Evans.....makes me laugh, is worth millions, and has seen his share of decent 'action'- and does raise a bomb for charidee. Fair play, I say- though he is marmite in extremis.

I thought I heard the f word, too.
I'm not totally anti-Evans. I was listening to his show after all. I think he's a bit smug in general, who wouldn't be with his bank balance, but it was this particular example I was calling him a smug prat over. That he's made a success of life and raises plenty for charity I can't argue against. Something that does rankle is that he implores people to give to charity whilst having eight figures worth of cars in his garage. I don't begrudge anyone making loadsa money but don't be holier than thou when you could build a school if you sold the contents of your garage.

[Mellsblue]

meanwhile Burns starts for Bath. At 15. Bet he's chuffed.

Who do you think is least pleased over their summer swop, Burns or Ford?!?!? It's very, very early days but it's not going too well for either so far.

[Timbo]

Indicative...yes, just edited.

We may genuinely find out who our best international 13 is soon if JJ is not recalled. Te'o and Daly can't do much more, Slade is as gifted as they come and nobody has had a run at 13 besides Joseph for 3 years.

Joseph was dropped by Bath and said recently that he was distracted last season by off field stuff. Maybe this is the boot up the bum he needs. Eddie has used the stick and got a reaction out of JJ before, so let's wait and see.

[Mellsblue]

On Billy's interview on R2, I heard the first five mins. Now, we all know Billy's not the sharpest but for Chris Evans to be taking the piss out of professional, world class athlete about his pre-match routine was effing ridiculous. You're a bloody aging DJ and failed Top Gear presenter. At Billy's age you were driving a forklift around a warehouse and doing local radio. At twice his age you spent a year pissed, travelling round the world shagging Billie Piper (I'll admit to a slight bit of jealousy here) just because you've now run a couple of half marathons what gives you the right to laugh at a pro-rugby player. Smug prat. Rant over.

P/D'd be drooling over the Billie Piper reference, I'd expect!

And rightly so.

[Mellsblue]

And I apologise for using the word dominate.

Puja

James Haskell would like a word outside. Im sure it'll be fine, just don't squirt him with water.

[Mikey Brown]

Am I allowed to say that I thought Slade looked pretty good at the weekend? Also that he could play either position because 12 and 13 are literally the same.

[Banquo]

meanwhile Burns starts for Bath. At 15. Bet he's chuffed.

Who do you think is least pleased over their summer swop, Burns or Ford?!?!? It's very, very early days but it's not going too well for either so far.

Indeedy- Ford is getting games, but in a crap team, and seems to have changed his style. Burns....must be hacked off.