Spain

[Stones of granite]

If you want to start a fucking spangly-arsed discussion about the "evils of profit", start a new thread.

No need. That is the total goal of all wars.

Are you now describing this as a war?

[kk67]

If you want to start a fucking spangly-arsed discussion about the "evils of profit", start a new thread.

No need. That is the total goal of all wars.

Are you now describing this as a war?

I hope not. But all conflict is profit driven.
Simple fact.

[Stones of granite]

Its hard to see how the Spanish govt could have handled this worse, tbh. That being said, a declaration of independence from Barcelona would be comically inept also; Spain would permanently veto their entry into the EU, or at least make it very very expensive, as would any other EU country with a separatist movement. If popular opinion was 95% pro indy they might be able to swing it, and Spain appears to be trying its hardest to get that figure up there, but for now its a foolish move for the Catalans to make and one which would possibly backfire just as spectacularly as the Spanish actions of recent days.

Well, it's dead simple. The Catalans would be taking back control. All they have to do is form a strong and stable Government, and then they will be free to make trade deals with the rest of the world.

What I dont get, given the massive economic and political impact it will have on the lives of everyone in Spain who doesnt live in Catalonia, why is it only a decision for the Catalan people? How is splitting up a country only a decision for a select few? Surely every Spanish person should have a say on the future of Spain? Or am I misunderstanding the concept of democracy?

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Dead right. Ghandi should have held an Empire-wide poll before requesting independence from the Empire. Undemocratic bastard.

Not if the rest of the world doesnt recognize their act as a legal one, and its hard to think of a reason they would.

Reductio ad absurdum, as you're fond of pointing out.

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True, Puigdemont and his buddies need to assess how big a risk that is. In reality there are plenty countries that be contrarian just for shits and giggles, and try to piss off the EU.
I wouldn't be surprised if we were one of them.

[Stones of granite]

No need. That is the total goal of all wars.

Are you now describing this as a war?

I hope not. But all conflict is profit driven.
Simple fact.

Are we going to continue to classify global progress by profit....?. Surely this is the moment to forget that self-fulfilling bollocks.

I'm beginning to think you're just chucking out snappy one-liners in a Morepork-stylee now.

[Donny osmond]

Well, it's dead simple. The Catalans would be taking back control. All they have to do is form a strong and stable Government, and then they will be free to make trade deals with the rest of the world.


Dead right. Ghandi should have held an Empire-wide poll before requesting independence from the Empire. Undemocratic bastard.

Not if the rest of the world doesnt recognize their act as a legal one, and its hard to think of a reason they would.

Reductio ad absurdum, as you're fond of pointing out.

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True, Puigdemont and his buddies need to assess how big a risk that is. In reality there are plenty countries that be contrarian just for shits and giggles, and try to piss off the EU.
I wouldn't be surprised if we were one of them.

Yeah its for the Catalans to play their cards how they want, just saying I think it'd be a crazy risk to gamble on all 27 countries of the EU abandoning Spain in favour of Catalonia. Am I right in thinking all the countries of the EU would have to?

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[Digby]

Yes, including Spain. The Catalans probably can force more independence, whether they'd want it given the possible terms who knows. Maybe the Catexiters could explain how leaving Spain would free up €350 million a week to spend on Lionel Messi's wages

[OptimisticJock]

Its hard to see how the Spanish govt could have handled this worse, tbh. That being said, a declaration of independence from Barcelona would be comically inept also; Spain would permanently veto their entry into the EU, or at least make it very very expensive, as would any other EU country with a separatist movement. If popular opinion was 95% pro indy they might be able to swing it, and Spain appears to be trying its hardest to get that figure up there, but for now its a foolish move for the Catalans to make and one which would possibly backfire just as spectacularly as the Spanish actions of recent days.

What I dont get, given the massive economic and political impact it will have on the lives of everyone in Spain who doesnt live in Catalonia, why is it only a decision for the Catalan people? How is splitting up a country only a decision for a select few? Surely every Spanish person should have a say on the future of Spain? Or am I misunderstanding the concept of democracy?

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I disagree with you here. I don't see why a people that see themselves as distinctly different should be forced to remain a part of a country they don't feel an affinity to just because others want them (or more appropriately their money).

[Donny osmond]

Its hard to see how the Spanish govt could have handled this worse, tbh. That being said, a declaration of independence from Barcelona would be comically inept also; Spain would permanently veto their entry into the EU, or at least make it very very expensive, as would any other EU country with a separatist movement. If popular opinion was 95% pro indy they might be able to swing it, and Spain appears to be trying its hardest to get that figure up there, but for now its a foolish move for the Catalans to make and one which would possibly backfire just as spectacularly as the Spanish actions of recent days.

What I dont get, given the massive economic and political impact it will have on the lives of everyone in Spain who doesnt live in Catalonia, why is it only a decision for the Catalan people? How is splitting up a country only a decision for a select few? Surely every Spanish person should have a say on the future of Spain? Or am I misunderstanding the concept of democracy?

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I disagree with you here. I don't see why a people that see themselves as distinctly different should be forced to remain a part of a country they don't feel an affinity to just because others want them (or more appropriately their money).

I agree with you there but I think its only one side of the coin. The rest of Spain will be massively effected by Catalan independence. Telling 10s of millions of Spanish people that their economic and political lives are in for an earthquake, based on the will of a couple of million Catalans, and they what they think about that doesnt matter a damn... strikes me as a pretty dubious version of democracy.

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[Zhivago]

Its hard to see how the Spanish govt could have handled this worse, tbh. That being said, a declaration of independence from Barcelona would be comically inept also; Spain would permanently veto their entry into the EU, or at least make it very very expensive, as would any other EU country with a separatist movement. If popular opinion was 95% pro indy they might be able to swing it, and Spain appears to be trying its hardest to get that figure up there, but for now its a foolish move for the Catalans to make and one which would possibly backfire just as spectacularly as the Spanish actions of recent days.

What I dont get, given the massive economic and political impact it will have on the lives of everyone in Spain who doesnt live in Catalonia, why is it only a decision for the Catalan people? How is splitting up a country only a decision for a select few? Surely every Spanish person should have a say on the future of Spain? Or am I misunderstanding the concept of democracy?

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I disagree with you here. I don't see why a people that see themselves as distinctly different should be forced to remain a part of a country they don't feel an affinity to just because others want them (or more appropriately their money).

I agree with you there but I think its only one side of the coin. The rest of Spain will be massively effected by Catalan independence. Telling 10s of millions of Spanish people that their economic and political lives are in for an earthquake, based on the will of a couple of million Catalans, and they what they think about that doesnt matter a damn... strikes me as a pretty dubious version of democracy.

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EU will be affected by brexit. They should have had a vote in our referendum. Same logic.

[Donny osmond]

I disagree with you here. I don't see why a people that see themselves as distinctly different should be forced to remain a part of a country they don't feel an affinity to just because others want them (or more appropriately their money).

I agree with you there but I think its only one side of the coin. The rest of Spain will be massively effected by Catalan independence. Telling 10s of millions of Spanish people that their economic and political lives are in for an earthquake, based on the will of a couple of million Catalans, and they what they think about that doesnt matter a damn... strikes me as a pretty dubious version of democracy.

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EU will be affected by brexit. They should have had a vote in our referendum. Same logic.

It really isn't.

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[Which Tyler]

Please explain the difference then.

Why is Catalan independence from Spain so different from Scottish independence from Britain, or British independence from the EU?

The similarities are self-evident - a subsect feels different, and wants to separate from the whole; geo-political boundaries already established.

[OptimisticJock]

Its hard to see how the Spanish govt could have handled this worse, tbh. That being said, a declaration of independence from Barcelona would be comically inept also; Spain would permanently veto their entry into the EU, or at least make it very very expensive, as would any other EU country with a separatist movement. If popular opinion was 95% pro indy they might be able to swing it, and Spain appears to be trying its hardest to get that figure up there, but for now its a foolish move for the Catalans to make and one which would possibly backfire just as spectacularly as the Spanish actions of recent days.

What I dont get, given the massive economic and political impact it will have on the lives of everyone in Spain who doesnt live in Catalonia, why is it only a decision for the Catalan people? How is splitting up a country only a decision for a select few? Surely every Spanish person should have a say on the future of Spain? Or am I misunderstanding the concept of democracy?

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I disagree with you here. I don't see why a people that see themselves as distinctly different should be forced to remain a part of a country they don't feel an affinity to just because others want them (or more appropriately their money).

I agree with you there but I think its only one side of the coin. The rest of Spain will be massively effected by Catalan independence. Telling 10s of millions of Spanish people that their economic and political lives are in for an earthquake, based on the will of a couple of million Catalans, and they what they think about that doesnt matter a damn... strikes me as a pretty dubious version of democracy.

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I'd say it's undemocratic to deny a subsection of a country it's right to independence because others don't like it.

[Donny osmond]

Please explain the difference then.

Why is Catalan independence from Spain so different from Scottish independence from Britain, or British independence from the EU?

The similarities are self-evident - a subsect feels different, and wants to separate from the whole; geo-political boundaries already established.

Membership of the EU is voluntary and always been. Hence why there's an article 50, if anyone wants to leave they can. I'm no expert (no, really) but can anyone name a country that has written into its constitution/legal framework that any part of the country can just bugger off whenever they feel like without consideration of what the rest of the county thinks? That's not how countries work, or at least not how they're supposed to work.

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[Donny osmond]

I disagree with you here. I don't see why a people that see themselves as distinctly different should be forced to remain a part of a country they don't feel an affinity to just because others want them (or more appropriately their money).

I agree with you there but I think its only one side of the coin. The rest of Spain will be massively effected by Catalan independence. Telling 10s of millions of Spanish people that their economic and political lives are in for an earthquake, based on the will of a couple of million Catalans, and they what they think about that doesnt matter a damn... strikes me as a pretty dubious version of democracy.

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I'd say it's undemocratic to deny a subsection of a country it's right to independence because others don't like it.

Again I agree as far as that goes, but its treating the situation as a one way street, and I'm saying it isnt.

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[bruce]

Similar to the Basque country, doesn't Catalonia incorporate a bit of France? Or is my geography all to shit.

[Zhivago]

Please explain the difference then.

Why is Catalan independence from Spain so different from Scottish independence from Britain, or British independence from the EU?

The similarities are self-evident - a subsect feels different, and wants to separate from the whole; geo-political boundaries already established.

Membership of the EU is voluntary and always been. Hence why there's an article 50, if anyone wants to leave they can. I'm no expert (no, really) but can anyone name a country that has written into its constitution/legal framework that any part of the country can just bugger off whenever they feel like without consideration of what the rest of the county thinks? That's not how countries work, or at least not how they're supposed to work.

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Liechtenstein... is the funniest example.

And if looking only within Europe, then Denmark, Netherlands, France all have some form of provision that give provinces the right to self-determination.

[Donny osmond]

Please explain the difference then.

Why is Catalan independence from Spain so different from Scottish independence from Britain, or British independence from the EU?

The similarities are self-evident - a subsect feels different, and wants to separate from the whole; geo-political boundaries already established.

Membership of the EU is voluntary and always been. Hence why there's an article 50, if anyone wants to leave they can. I'm no expert (no, really) but can anyone name a country that has written into its constitution/legal framework that any part of the country can just bugger off whenever they feel like without consideration of what the rest of the county thinks? That's not how countries work, or at least not how they're supposed to work.

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Liechtenstein... is the funniest example.

And if looking only within Europe, then Denmark, Netherlands, France all have some form of provision that give provinces the right to self-determination.

Self determination or full independence?

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[Zhivago]

Membership of the EU is voluntary and always been. Hence why there's an article 50, if anyone wants to leave they can. I'm no expert (no, really) but can anyone name a country that has written into its constitution/legal framework that any part of the country can just bugger off whenever they feel like without consideration of what the rest of the county thinks? That's not how countries work, or at least not how they're supposed to work.

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Liechtenstein... is the funniest example.

And if looking only within Europe, then Denmark, Netherlands, France all have some form of provision that give provinces the right to self-determination.

Self determination or full independence?

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I'm not answering stupid questions

[Donny osmond]

Liechtenstein... is the funniest example.

And if looking only within Europe, then Denmark, Netherlands, France all have some form of provision that give provinces the right to self-determination.

Self determination or full independence?

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I'm not answering stupid questions

Because you can't?

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[Zhivago]

Self determination or full independence?

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I'm not answering stupid questions

Because you can't?

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That must be the reason. Totally not because I don't care enough to try to wrangle out whatever it is you mean by your question. If you're interested in the details of the cases I mentioned, I suggest you Google it.

[Donny osmond]

I'm not answering stupid questions

Because you can't?

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That must be the reason. Totally not because I don't care enough to try to wrangle out whatever it is you mean by your question. If you're interested in the details of the cases I mentioned, I suggest you Google it.

Can't answer. Thanks for your input champ.

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[onlynameleft]

Similar to the Basque country, doesn't Catalonia incorporate a bit of France? Or is my geography all to shit.

Traditionally the old principality of Catalunya included part of what is now France but the semi autonomous region of Spain known as Catalonia is all inside Spain. Similarly as above, the Basque Country is a region of Spain that doesn’t really correspond to the Basque region which includes part of France. Much easier being an island, frankly.

I’m struggling to remember the Impreza Catalunya, Black maybe, was often attributed to Richard Burns but he never won it, think it was probably manufacturers’ title, McRae won the rally at least twice, donut think Burns ever (RIP them both) #digressing. Was no 22B anyway.

[Stones of granite]

Please explain the difference then.

Why is Catalan independence from Spain so different from Scottish independence from Britain, or British independence from the EU?

The similarities are self-evident - a subsect feels different, and wants to separate from the whole; geo-political boundaries already established.

Membership of the EU is voluntary and always been. Hence why there's an article 50, if anyone wants to leave they can. I'm no expert (no, really) but can anyone name a country that has written into its constitution/legal framework that any part of the country can just bugger off whenever they feel like without consideration of what the rest of the county thinks? That's not how countries work, or at least not how they're supposed to work.

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You seem to be backtracking a bit Donny. If I remember correctly, following the Scotland Referendum, you claimed it ironic that Nationalists wanted to leave the UK Union but remain part of the European Union. Now you are differentiating them.

If this wasn't you, I apologise, but it was certainly someone here.

[onlynameleft]

So Spanish Court bars Catalonian Parliament from meeting. Given the context I doubt they will give a stuff?
They should declare at lunchtime though, Spain will be shafted then.

[Donny osmond]

Please explain the difference then.

Why is Catalan independence from Spain so different from Scottish independence from Britain, or British independence from the EU?

The similarities are self-evident - a subsect feels different, and wants to separate from the whole; geo-political boundaries already established.

Membership of the EU is voluntary and always been. Hence why there's an article 50, if anyone wants to leave they can. I'm no expert (no, really) but can anyone name a country that has written into its constitution/legal framework that any part of the country can just bugger off whenever they feel like without consideration of what the rest of the county thinks? That's not how countries work, or at least not how they're supposed to work.

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You seem to be backtracking a bit Donny. If I remember correctly, following the Scotland Referendum, you claimed it ironic that Nationalists wanted to leave the UK Union but remain part of the European Union. Now you are differentiating them.

If this wasn't you, I apologise, but it was certainly someone here.

Sounds like something I would've said. I don't really follow that its backtracking tho, can you elucidate for me?

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