EPS Watch / Player Form Thread

[Which Tyler]

Yeah, the solution to the problem in England's backs is fairly obvious; with Te'o at IC. Agreed though, Eddie's not about to drop Fazlet to the bench.
I'm beginning to think I'd rather Ford was dropped to the bench than put Te'o at 13.

what's changed your view on Teo?

My view hasn't particularly changed - I think he's a fine rugby player, and a poor team-man (though I think is less of an issue at international level than it is at club; I think he feels that club rugby is beneath him, though it may just be tat he feels Worcester is beneath him).

I think that if the answer is to provide some bulk in the midfield, then he's the best bet we've got (unless and until Devoto on an extra stone and gains more experience; or BillyT grows a brain; or Manu finds some stronger bones/muscles/tendons).

If we have to play Te'o, then putting him in a centre partnership with Farrell is setting the backline up to fail, whilst putting him sith someone who can make the most of the half gaps he can produce is the best option - preferably alongside a FH who can make decisions based on what the opponents are doing, and has the skillset to throw mis-passes when necessary, or to run with the ball now he (should) feel enabled.

[Mikey Brown]

Aye. I want a physical option but that probably means Farrell to 10, but I feel Farrell really needs another ball player alongside.

[Which Tyler]

Aye. I want a physical option but that probably means Farrell to 10, but I feel Farrell really needs another ball player alongside.

Yeah, I think Farrell needs a ball-player alongside him; whilst Ford would play best with a bosher at 12. I also (still) think that Slade's position-of-best-fit would be IC.

I think that if I actually were the England HC, I'd vaciliate between pairing Ford with Te'o, or Farrell with Slade - at 10/12; and consider Ford with Slade against "lesser" oponents, and Farrell with Te'o as horses-for-courses (though I still think this would be any actual head coach's preference). With any of those options I'd want 11. Daly; 13.JJ; 14. May; 15. Watson outside of them.

Of course, we have to accept the Farrell is basically undroppable for his attitude. I just think that the above options set them all up to succeed, rather than being too compromised or too predictable (but head coaches tend to LIKE predictable).

[Banquo]

Yeah, the solution to the problem in England's backs is fairly obvious; with Te'o at IC. Agreed though, Eddie's not about to drop Fazlet to the bench.
I'm beginning to think I'd rather Ford was dropped to the bench than put Te'o at 13.

what's changed your view on Teo?

My view hasn't particularly changed - I think he's a fine rugby player, and a poor team-man (though I think is less of an issue at international level than it is at club; I think he feels that club rugby is beneath him, though it may just be tat he feels Worcester is beneath him).

I think that if the answer is to provide some bulk in the midfield, then he's the best bet we've got (unless and until Devoto on an extra stone and gains more experience; or BillyT grows a brain; or Manu finds some stronger bones/muscles/tendons).

If we have to play Te'o, then putting him in a centre partnership with Farrell is setting the backline up to fail, whilst putting him sith someone who can make the most of the half gaps he can produce is the best option - preferably alongside a FH who can make decisions based on what the opponents are doing, and has the skillset to throw mis-passes when necessary, or to run with the ball now he (should) feel enabled.

ah ok, before you said the jury was out on him, and that you wanted a 12 who could kick

[Which Tyler]

I do want a 12 who can kick; and my jury is out on him - in terms of his temprament.
I'd also say that the jury is out on him in terms of ultimate quality - but that's the case for anyone with only a few caps to his name. Further - I have a feeling that he's better used as a "finisher" than as a starter; but I wouldn't be able to quantify why, that's just a feeling that I have.

I do also, of course, change my mind regularly on what I'd like to see in the England midfield - partly as form dicates, partly as my thoughts on someone's ultimate quality changes, partly as a compromise between what I want and what I think is realistic, and partly as I compromise between what I want to see, and what I'd actually do if my job depended on the outcome.
Of course, ideally, I'd like a 12 who can bosh it up well, and attack the inside shoulder; whilst having good vision for those around him, abrasive (and controlled) defence, a soft offload, a wide range of passing options, a decent boot, and a turn of pace...
I suspect I might not be alone in wanting that.

[Banquo]

I do want a 12 who can kick; and my jury is out on him - in terms of his temprament.
I'd also say that the jury is out on him in terms of ultimate quality - but that's the case for anyone with only a few caps to his name.

must have misunderstood, you seemed to be saying Teo is the obvious solution at 12

[Which Tyler]

I do want a 12 who can kick; and my jury is out on him - in terms of his temprament.
I'd also say that the jury is out on him in terms of ultimate quality - but that's the case for anyone with only a few caps to his name.

must have misunderstood, you seemed to be saying Teo is the obvious solution at 12

Kinda - largely because I don't express myself very well whilst holding self-contradictory positions.

I feel that Te'o is an obvious solution; and a more realistic one (and probably better right now) than my preferred solution (Ford; Slade; Joseph). I do not think that Farrell; Te'o; Slade/Joseph is the be all and end all; I just think that it's better than Ford; Farrell; Slade/Joseph.
If the problem is the lack of a 12 who interests defenders, then the solution is to pick a 12 who interests defenders, allowing a little more room for those either side of them to operate in.
I do not think that Te'o's ultimate quality is world class, but I do think it's solid-international class.

As for temprament, my issue is that I think that he's out for the glory of Ben Te'o; not for the glory of whatever team he is playing for... the anti-Robshaw if you like. It may well be that on the international stage he's fine; but I have my doubts about him at club level; possibly because a good argument could be made that he's right in thinking that he's too good for Worcester.

[Banquo]

I do want a 12 who can kick; and my jury is out on him - in terms of his temprament.
I'd also say that the jury is out on him in terms of ultimate quality - but that's the case for anyone with only a few caps to his name.

must have misunderstood, you seemed to be saying Teo is the obvious solution at 12

Kinda - largely because I don't express myself very well whilst holding self-contradictory positions.

I feel that Te'o is an obvious solution; and a more realistic one (and probably better right now) than my preferred solution (Ford; Slade; Joseph). I do not think that Farrell; Te'o; Slade/Joseph is the be all and end all; I just think that it's better than Ford; Farrell; Slade/Joseph.
If the problem is the lack of a 12 who interests defenders, then the solution is to pick a 12 who interests defenders, allowing a little more room for those either side of them to operate in.
I do not think that Te'o's ultimate quality is world class, but I do think it's solid-international class.

As for temprament, my issue is that I think that he's out for the glory of Ben Te'o; not for the glory of whatever team he is playing for... the anti-Robshaw if you like. It may well be that on the international stage he's fine; but I have my doubts about him at club level; possibly because a good argument could be made that he's right in thinking that he's too good for Worcester.

gotcha. I think Ford, Teo, JJ would be excellent, and I also agree that Slade looks a better bet at 12 than 13. Ford, Slade, JJ (or even Teo) would be worth a gander, especially if we use the 13/wing channel better with Watson/Daly/May appearing there from fb/bsw. I'm really bothered that JJ is going to be frozen out.

Nice to see Trinder back and playing so well- possessor of a very tasty left boot, to boot. He may have missed the England boat now, but who knows-- just hope he gets a decent run of games.

[Oakboy]

I am interested to hear WT's opinion on T'eo's attitude. I was unaware of any hints to that effect.

Banquo's concern over JJ is significant too. I hate to suggest that the guy is less of a player than he was a year or so back because he still has top class attributes. Somehow, he's no longer rated at the very edge (possibly by Eddie - do we ever really know what he thinks?). Why was JJ sidelined on the jamboree? I don't follow it but I'd have picked him on paper. Did something else go on?

We go round and round talking about Slade. One thing the guy's got is attitude. He's come through serious injury better than most. He's been loyal and patient and he's allowed his on-field effectiveness do his talking. I think his character and skill-set demand a decent run. If I was choosing, I'd ask Exeter to play him at FB but I'd accept Eddie's resolve on OC being his position.

Oh, and we still need a decent SH!

[Raggs]

JJ is a good individual threat, but if faced with a JJ quality defender at 13, fizzles out a bit, since he doesn't have raw power to just gain yards anyway, and his distribution from 13 is poo (in my mind). For the Lions he had a nightmare in defence in one of the games too, and considering that's his strongest point, it probably didn't go down well.

[Banquo]

JJ is a good individual threat, but if faced with a JJ quality defender at 13, fizzles out a bit, since he doesn't have raw power to just gain yards anyway, and his distribution from 13 is poo (in my mind). For the Lions he had a nightmare in defence in one of the games too, and considering that's his strongest point, it probably didn't go down well.

Notwithstanding your Lions comment about his defence (I don't remember a 'nightmare' tbh, but maybe it was a game I didn't see; he was frozen out of the lions because they were playing an out to in defensive system, that needed a larger 13 (in their minds), and one which JJ was unfamiliar with...though Bath seem to be using it more this season), he won't face his quality of defence that often....I'd also say his gas and outside break is certainly not being 'enabled' by how England play, other than from the odd set piece. One thing that is fair comment though, is that he too often is taking the ball at half pace and a tad flat- hard to say whether that's timing inside him, but he really needs to take the ball at pace more often with a change of angle- I think he has been trying too much to make plays of his own from standing starts, which probably plays into your distribution point.

His passing I think is ok- Bath use him as a second receiver a fair bit- and he does do a nice line in grubber kicks; personally I think his try scoring record and normally superb defence (see the absolute tour de force v Argentina after Daly was sent off) should make him a key and core team member; but Eddie is not at all convinced. I reckon if you set the team up to make the most of his strengths (namely holding the inside defence) you'd see him be more dangerous, more often.

[Raggs]

His passing is fine when he's playing as a playmaker, much like Brown is capable of that role, neither are natural fly halves, but both can send it further out. Mmy issue is I rarely see him commit the defence on the edge, and then give a pass to the winger, he all too often seems to try and go alone.

[Which Tyler]

You really want more of my muddled thoughts on Te'o?
Basically, I think he's too one-dimensional for my tastes, but so many of the boshing types tend to be. I think he's a bit too in love with himself, looking for the highlights reel; not so much the unglamorous stuff... not the man I'd want with me in the trenches.
I freely admit that this is largely based on his performances (and odd comments) for Worcester; and if he thinks he's too good for Wuss, then he's probably right. At club level I wouldn't want to take that risk international level I'd be less worried about him not caring about this match, though I'd still prefer a different option, both in application and range of skills.

As for JJ, I'm not sure how his ball-handling is supposed to be poor, it's certainly not something I've ever thought about him; albeit he's no converted FH.
In attack he tends to receive man and ball too much, partly because he's such a threat he scared defenders and partly because he's so often alongside an IC who doesn't scare defenders. IMO, (amd much like Ford - or hell, any offensive OC) he'd work better with an IC that interests defences, whether that's a bosher like Te'o or a dancer like Eastmond. An IC that threatens defences buys time and space for those around them, and IC who allows the defence to drift off and basically ignore him, will occasionally wander through an open door, but mostly mean than his OC and wing are confronted with 3 defenders for the 2 of them - however good his distribution.

I'd love to see Slade and Devoto, at different clubs, fighting it out for the 12 shirt, ideally with a healthy Manu providing an alternative, and Jonny Williams getting good game time at a better club (and Max Clarke playing consistently well enough to be included in the conversation - though that's more because it'd help Bath's campaign).

[Which Tyler]

Wow, a natural OC and a natural FB being criticized for not being natural FHs... That's some pretty high standards - have there ever been a team that met them both? Even the likes of Slade and Goode are more failed FHs than they are natural ones.
Personally, I'd rather the OC was a natural OC than a natural FH.

As for JJ and outside breaks then putting the wing clear - when's the last time he had the opportunity?

[Mikey Brown]

I'd forgotten all about Eastmond.

[Digby]

Wow, a natural OC and a natural FB being criticized for not being natural FHs... That's some pretty high standards - have there ever been a team that met them both? Even the likes of Slade and Goode are more failed FHs than they are natural ones.
Personally, I'd rather the OC was a natural OC than a natural FH.

As for JJ and outside breaks then putting the wing clear - when's the last time he had the opportunity?

If anyone has done it I assume it'd be with Aussies with some mix of Barnes, O'Connor, Leali'ifano, Beale and Toomua, but even then the likes of Kuridrani, Horne, AAC and Ioane might be getting in the way

[Banquo]

You really want more of my muddled thoughts on Te'o?
Basically, I think he's too one-dimensional for my tastes, but so many of the boshing types tend to be. I think he's a bit too in love with himself, looking for the highlights reel; not so much the unglamorous stuff... not the man I'd want with me in the trenches.
I freely admit that this is largely based on his performances (and odd comments) for Worcester; and if he thinks he's too good for Wuss, then he's probably right. At club level I wouldn't want to take that risk international level I'd be less worried about him not caring about this match, though I'd still prefer a different option, both in application and range of skills.

As for JJ, I'm not sure how his ball-handling is supposed to be poor, it's certainly not something I've ever thought about him; albeit he's no converted FH.
In attack he tends to receive man and ball too much, partly because he's such a threat he scared defenders and partly because he's so often alongside an IC who doesn't scare defenders. IMO, (amd much like Ford - or hell, any offensive OC) he'd work better with an IC that interests defences, whether that's a bosher like Te'o or a dancer like Eastmond. An IC that threatens defences buys time and space for those around them, and IC who allows the defence to drift off and basically ignore him, will occasionally wander through an open door, but mostly mean than his OC and wing are confronted with 3 defenders for the 2 of them - however good his distribution.

I'd love to see Slade and Devoto, at different clubs, fighting it out for the 12 shirt, ideally with a healthy Manu providing an alternative, and Jonny Williams getting good game time at a better club (and Max Clarke playing consistently well enough to be included in the conversation - though that's more because it'd help Bath's campaign).

Beat me to it on JJ.

[Raggs]

Who criticised him for not being a natural fly half? Not me. I criticised him for not being a good enough OC to pass the ball to a man in a better position, and trying to go himself. No need to be a fly half, just commit and pass.

To move onto a different player, and one a fair few had high hopes for, I feel Haley looks a bit too Brown like, with his lack of distribution. He often beats that first man too, but never seems to look for the pass.

[Mikey Brown]

I'm fully up for seeing him at 15, but how much does Watson really pass the ball? Even less than me?

I've certainly been the one to give him the ball for a bunch of his tries and he rarely, if ever, returns the favour.

[Raggs]

I'm fully up for seeing him at 15, but how much does Watson really pass the ball? Even less than me?

I've certainly been the one to give him the ball for a bunch of his tries and he rarely, if ever, returns the favour.

Not seen him enough at 15, but I think I'd probably agree with you. Not suggesting he should be in the picture, but Miller is a good example of a fullback who does give the pass, but is equally capable of going through a gap himself. I think Wasps have tried to work on the mindset of giving the ball to the next guy when he's in the better position. It was working fairly well last season, this season has seen so much disruption it makes it a lot tougher.

[Banquo]

Who criticised him for not being a natural fly half? Not me. I criticised him for not being a good enough OC to pass the ball to a man in a better position, and trying to go himself. No need to be a fly half, just commit and pass.

To move onto a different player, and one a fair few had high hopes for, I feel Haley looks a bit too Brown like, with his lack of distribution. He often beats that first man too, but never seems to look for the pass.

Seems a tad overstated to me, think there is plenty of evidence to counter that; I also think this view (as you expressed earlier in a slightly different comment to the above) that a 13 will often have a 2 v 1 with the winger unmarked outside him is a bit sterile with modern defences.....in conventional attack, a 13 will more often be passing to a full back in any case, but with a defence that's either sliding across or coming in from the outside, either of which are somewhat more complex than drawing a player and passing.

I do agree for the last 5 or so games I have seen him in, he has been trying too hard to force plays himself, but as I said above, its a bit of a function of what has been happening inside him.

[Oakboy]

Who criticised him for not being a natural fly half? Not me. I criticised him for not being a good enough OC to pass the ball to a man in a better position, and trying to go himself. No need to be a fly half, just commit and pass.

To move onto a different player, and one a fair few had high hopes for, I feel Haley looks a bit too Brown like, with his lack of distribution. He often beats that first man too, but never seems to look for the pass.

Seems a tad overstated to me, think there is plenty of evidence to counter that; I also think this view (as you expressed earlier in a slightly different comment to the above) that a 13 will often have a 2 v 1 with the winger unmarked outside him is a bit sterile with modern defences.....in conventional attack, a 13 will more often be passing to a full back in any case, but with a defence that's either sliding across or coming in from the outside, either of which are somewhat more complex than drawing a player and passing.

I do agree for the last 5 or so games I have seen him in, he has been trying too hard to force plays himself, but as I said above, its a bit of a function of what has been happening inside him.

Will Eddie pick JJ at 13? Most of us do not see Youngs, Ford and Farrell as a top-functioning unit but Eddie appears to. He seems to blame JJ for not fitting with them and that's that. I'd be surprised if we do not get T'eo at 13. Of course, Farrell has played at 13 for Saracens. Maybe Eddie sees some future in them inter-changing.

Over-riding all other considerations for me, is the conviction that we don't get the best out of Ford at 10 if Farrell is running the game from 12. If I could have one wish it would be that for the AIs Eddie could select only one of the Fs at 10. Then review.

[Banquo]

Who criticised him for not being a natural fly half? Not me. I criticised him for not being a good enough OC to pass the ball to a man in a better position, and trying to go himself. No need to be a fly half, just commit and pass.

To move onto a different player, and one a fair few had high hopes for, I feel Haley looks a bit too Brown like, with his lack of distribution. He often beats that first man too, but never seems to look for the pass.

Seems a tad overstated to me, think there is plenty of evidence to counter that; I also think this view (as you expressed earlier in a slightly different comment to the above) that a 13 will often have a 2 v 1 with the winger unmarked outside him is a bit sterile with modern defences.....in conventional attack, a 13 will more often be passing to a full back in any case, but with a defence that's either sliding across or coming in from the outside, either of which are somewhat more complex than drawing a player and passing.

I do agree for the last 5 or so games I have seen him in, he has been trying too hard to force plays himself, but as I said above, its a bit of a function of what has been happening inside him.

Will Eddie pick JJ at 13? Most of us do not see Youngs, Ford and Farrell as a top-functioning unit but Eddie appears to. He seems to blame JJ for not fitting with them and that's that. I'd be surprised if we do not get T'eo at 13. Of course, Farrell has played at 13 for Saracens. Maybe Eddie sees some future in them inter-changing.

Over-riding all other considerations for me, is the conviction that we don't get the best out of Ford at 10 if Farrell is running the game from 12. If I could have one wish it would be that for the AIs Eddie could select only one of the Fs at 10. Then review.

I don't agree with the Faz bullies Ford schtick, but tend to agree with your other conclusions. Eddie seems to have decided that a 2nd 5/8th is the way forward given what he has seen available to him at 12 (and it could be simply that he sees Ford and Faz as his numbeer one 10/12 combo, and thus needs to have faz-a-likes as back up 12's (which somewhat boils my pi55 for at least two reasons)), which is a bit of a departure from Manu is a 12 days. The rest then follows, part of which is having a more direct/physical 13. All guesswork, obviously!

[Puja]

I'm fully up for seeing him at 15, but how much does Watson really pass the ball? Even less than me?

I've certainly been the one to give him the ball for a bunch of his tries and he rarely, if ever, returns the favour.

Not seen him enough at 15, but I think I'd probably agree with you. Not suggesting he should be in the picture, but Miller is a good example of a fullback who does give the pass, but is equally capable of going through a gap himself. I think Wasps have tried to work on the mindset of giving the ball to the next guy when he's in the better position. It was working fairly well last season, this season has seen so much disruption it makes it a lot tougher.

To be fair to him, most of Watson's time has been spent on the wing, so he's not usually in the position to give the pass - he's normally the one receiving it.

Puja

[Mellsblue]

I'd certainly say that Watson passes about as much as Brown by instinct. I definitely think he's more aware of an overlap than Brown. The big difference is what they do when they have the ball. Watson is ten times the attacking threat that Brown is, and that's before you start to argue whether Brown has lost a bit of pace.