EPS Watch / Player Form Thread

[Puja]

And if the press want to run stories on who's in/out they will, it's very unlikely they wouldn't know the 45

Yeah, but it's different having the press run stories on "Rumour has it," than it is actively announcing an EPS and inviting the press. Eddie may have decided that he just doesn't fancy the hassle of dealing with a press frenzy when he doesn't have to and instead just opted to only engage with them when naming squads for international series.

Puja

[Puja]

Fair points. I don’t like it primarily because it takes the opportunity for debate away from us mere mortals.

Anyone expecting any surprises on Thursday??

I'm actually not expecting Joseph. I know I said that I thought it was just mind games, but Joseph hasn't actually shown any big kick on for Bath since then and, with Slade showing off a running threat rather than just a distribution one, I'm feeling like Ford/Farrell/Slade might have a bit more legs than I thought it would.

Puja

[Digby]

I'd be willing to believe the 45 man squad was supposed to be announced 2-3 weeks ago and England are delaying the announcement to try and account for injuries. And it's quite possible the clubs are okay with that.

I am expecting Joseph to be included, partly because (I think) Eddie can name a 45 man squad and at some point he'll run out of names if he's going to leave out the likes of JJ. Also I think JJ has been doing fine.

[Mikey Brown]

Fair points. I don’t like it primarily because it takes the opportunity for debate away from us mere mortals.

Anyone expecting any surprises on Thursday??

I'm actually not expecting Joseph. I know I said that I thought it was just mind games, but Joseph hasn't actually shown any big kick on for Bath since then and, with Slade showing off a running threat rather than just a distribution one, I'm feeling like Ford/Farrell/Slade might have a bit more legs than I thought it would.

Puja

Hold the phone. Slade showing off a running threat? Where was my PM? Have you consulted Banquo about this? Have you any video evidence?

I'm hoping for Eddie to make some sort of selection that hints at addressing the 9/10/12/13 issues, but short of "Faz is out because I was only joking this whole time, he's rubbish, here's a bio-mechanically refurbished Will Greenwood" I don't know what that would be.

[Mikey Brown]

Right. Had a go on the old google machine and found this.

http://sport.bt.com/rugby-union/lawrenc ... 4222653661

I mean if Lawrence Dallaglio thinks it then it's good enough for me.

[Scrumhead]

Fair points. I don’t like it primarily because it takes the opportunity for debate away from us mere mortals.

Anyone expecting any surprises on Thursday??

I'm actually not expecting Joseph. I know I said that I thought it was just mind games, but Joseph hasn't actually shown any big kick on for Bath since then and, with Slade showing off a running threat rather than just a distribution one, I'm feeling like Ford/Farrell/Slade might have a bit more legs than I thought it would.

Puja

Admittedly I didn’t see either of Bath’s Champions’ Cup games, but before that JJ did improve his AP form. After he was left out of the training squad, he scored two tries and made another in his next three games.

I don’t see the logic in leaving a player of his pedigree and experience out purely for mind games, particularly considering Te’o is likely to be unavailable.

I’m a bit concerned about Hughes’ citing. Unfortunately, I do think there was intent in the swinging arm, but if he gets a van, we’re really getting down to the bare bones at 8.

I hear Clifford doesn’t need an op, but he must still be weeks away from full fitness?

[Raggs]

Has Hughes been cited then?

EDIT - Didn't think there was much in it myself, especially played at full speed and from the other angle shown. High tackle certainly, maybe pushing yellow, but as there was a previous offence, we go back to that one.

eDIT EDIT - See Hughes, Hartley and Marler have all been cited.

[Puja]

Has Hughes been cited then?

EDIT - Didn't think there was much in it myself, especially played at full speed and from the other angle shown. High tackle certainly, maybe pushing yellow, but as there was a previous offence, we go back to that one.

eDIT EDIT - See Hughes, Hartley and Marler have all been cited.

Have said this on the other thread, but it bears repeating - Hartley being cited is utterly mental. That means they think the yellow was insufficient punishment and, frankly, anyone who thinks that's a red has a few screws loose.

Puja

[Which Tyler]

Hartley's yellow was harsh-but-fair. I can't see any way to make it a citing offence though.
Really ought to be found to have no case to answer... Unless he pleads guilty of course - which for once, he ought not - despite the risk of increased sanction.


Hmmm, what would you advise?
Plead guilty, cop a 2 week ban, and be available for the AIs?
Plead not-guilty, maybe play next week, maybe miss the AIs?
With Dylan's record, would he actually get any time off for remorse and admission?

[Raggs]

It's Hartley though, he got cited for bumping heads with George, anyone else and that would have been laughed off.

Ward was cited for a headbutt too from the Wasps Quins game.

[Puja]

Hartley's yellow was harsh-but-fair. I can't see any way to make it a citing offence though.
Really ought to be found to have no case to answer... Unless he pleads guilty of course - which for once, he ought not - despite the risk of increased sanction.


Hmmm, what would you advise?
Plead guilty, cop a 2 week ban, and be available for the AIs?
Plead not-guilty, maybe play next week, maybe miss the AIs?
With Dylan's record, would he actually get any time off for remorse and admission?

There's always space to give time off for remorse and admission and comporting himself well at the hearing.

I'm with you - he should be telling the citing board to get stuffed on this one, but the fact that they're so pants-on-head stupid as to even cite him in the first place suggests that they might just be mad enough to carry it through. It's the first time I've ever found myself feeling sorry for Dylan Hartley at a disciplinary hearing.

Puja

[Digby]

Hartley is a touch unlucky given what he did seems (sadly) almost standard, but back in the real world it's a god awful and dangerous technique which in this instance caught a player and tbh I'd have no sympathy for any player finding themselves in trouble over this one, still less for a thug who tends to whine 'why me'

[Mellsblue]

pants-on-head stupid
Puja

Love this. I have a very long meeting tomorrow in which I will be using this phrase on multiple occasions. I may also print out a pic of Blackadder with pants on his head and pencils up his nose to hold up when I become so sick of the idiocy I can't even be bothered to speak.

[Mikey Brown]

Are we talking about the straight arm to the throat of Ward by Hughes or a different incident?

[Timbo]

So in 2 Champions Cup weekends there have been 6 citings for players at English clubs and 1 for a Treviso player (that was thrown out)....Almost makes you think that all these Scottish, Welsh and Irish citing officials might not be 100% impartial.

How the feck did Slimani escape a citing? That was the worst incident of the lot.

[Which Tyler]

Are we talking about the straight arm to the throat of Ward by Hughes or a different incident?

I missed that one, I was assuming the forearm smash to young Smith in a tackle

[Scrumhead]

pants-on-head stupid
Puja

Love this. I have a very long meeting tomorrow in which I will be using this phrase on multiple occasions. I may also print out a pic of Blackadder with pants on his head and pencils up his nose to hold up when I become so sick of the idiocy I can't even be bothered to speak.

I dare say I will be in at least three similar meetings this week ...

[Peej]

Are we talking about the straight arm to the throat of Ward by Hughes or a different incident?

That's a hand off, open palm pushing out. Happens all game every game. If Ward keeps his head low, then Hughes can't do it. I don't see why Hughes would get punished for Ward's poor technique. Or are you expecting Launchers to be cited for what happened to Sailli?

[Puja]

Are we talking about the straight arm to the throat of Ward by Hughes or a different incident?

That's a hand off, open palm pushing out. Happens all game every game. If Ward keeps his head low, then Hughes can't do it. I don't see why Hughes would get punished for Ward's poor technique. Or are you expecting Launchers to be cited for what happened to Sailli?

That's a massive false equivalence - Hughes aims his hand-off and catches Ward in the face/neck. It's not a case of Ward headbutting Hughes's hand - the hand goes to the head, not vice versa. And he does it again to Robshaw in the same game. Agreed that both Robshaw and Ward could've avoided being handed off with different technique, but that doesn't give Hughes licence to hand people off in the face.

Launchbury I think should be very proud - it's not very often one can say that you've knocked a man unconscious with your groin.

Puja

[Raggs]

Where in the laws does it state you cannot hand off to the face? Or is it part of the new high tackle directive that I missed?

[Mikey Brown]

Right. Of course. You run around with your neck exposed like that I guess you're just asking for somebody to give you an open-palm in the throat.

[Peej]

Are we talking about the straight arm to the throat of Ward by Hughes or a different incident?

That's a hand off, open palm pushing out. Happens all game every game. If Ward keeps his head low, then Hughes can't do it. I don't see why Hughes would get punished for Ward's poor technique. Or are you expecting Launchers to be cited for what happened to Sailli?

That's a massive false equivalence - Hughes aims his hand-off and catches Ward in the face/neck. It's not a case of Ward headbutting Hughes's hand - the hand goes to the head, not vice versa. And he does it again to Robshaw in the same game. Agreed that both Robshaw and Ward could've avoided being handed off with different technique, but that doesn't give Hughes licence to hand people off in the face.

Launchbury I think should be very proud - it's not very often one can say that you've knocked a man unconscious with your groin.

Puja

But it's not against the laws to hand off in the face, is it, with a straight arm and open palm? Genuine question, not sure if the laws have changed.

In the video here the arm is out quite far in advance and it looks to me as if Ward does just run straight into it by going too high. I'm not sure it's aimed directly at the throat. What is malicious is Marler's no-arms tackle on Rowlands' knee in the next phase, and then Ward's attempt at a DDT on him straight after.

http://sport.bt.com/hughes-shoves-rival ... 4222808797

Edited as being unnecessarily spiky.

[Mikey Brown]

At 50 seconds its pretty clear the throat is exactly there Hughes aims. I don't know what the law says about it either to be honest. I was only asking if that is what he had been cited for.

Also do you mean Joe Gray's attempted tackle? As Marler is stood right in the middle of the pitch.

[Puja]

Interesting question - I don't believe it is specifically mentioned in the laws that a hand off cannot be above the shoulders. In fact... {goes to IRB site} it is defined as "An action taken by a ball carrier to fend off an opponent by using the palm of the hand". Mind, "neck roll" isn't defined under the laws and that's still penalised.

So, technically it's not in the laws, but I think an application of common sense would suggest that if you can't clear out around the neck, you probably can't hand off there either.

Puja

[Digby]

Where in the laws does it state you cannot hand off to the face? Or is it part of the new high tackle directive that I missed?

You can, but it still might be judged dangerous play. I think given Hughes gave him a big old shove rather than just a fend he might end up in a little bother, but it doesn't look all that bad to me