RugbyRebels

Tips is more of a genuine openside than anyone else in the NH. Whatever else I might think about his selection, Gatland has picked a proper 7. Whether he'll play is another matter.

jngf wrote:I think Gatland may have miscalculated by not taking Chris Robshaw. Stander and Moriarty both offer the same thing and I would have still picked the latter but taken Robshaw in place of the former to have at least one out and out workrate grafter in the squad. There's also an argument that SOB and Warburton are too similar to both be selected and one of the Scot's genuine opensides could have offered more flexibility in place of one of these, probably Warburton to be honest.

Have you ever actually seen Stander play? Are you seriously suggesting he lacks work rate?

Eugene Wrayburn wrote:

jngf wrote:I think Gatland may have miscalculated by not taking Chris Robshaw. Stander and Moriarty both offer the same thing and I would have still picked the latter but taken Robshaw in place of the former to have at least one out and out workrate grafter in the squad. There's also an argument that SOB and Warburton are too similar to both be selected and one of the Scot's genuine opensides could have offered more flexibility in place of one of these, probably Warburton to be honest.

Have you ever actually seen Stander play? Are you seriously suggesting he lacks work rate?

Have you ever read one of Jngf's posts before?

Of course
Mako
McGrath
Best
George
Cole
Furlong
Itoje
BillyV
Murray
Sexton
Henshaw
Joseph
Seymour
Hogg
Williams

Fair enough

Marler
Owens
Sinckler
AWJ
POM
SOB
Stander
Warburton
Tipuric
Faletau
Webb
Farrell
Te'o
Payne
Daly
Watson
North

Really?

Kruis
Lawes
Henderson
Moriarty
Youngs
Biggar
Nowell

WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK!!!

Davies
Halfpenny

cashead wrote:Lawes had a good 6Ns for England, and I thought Moriarty's form warranted consideration, TBH.

I've copied the comments to another thread but,

Moriarty managed 60 very good minutes against England and was average apart from that. We don't need an extra back rower. Lawes was ok. Launchbury was clearly better. Jonny and Richie G were better over the tournament.

Eugene Wrayburn wrote:Of course
Mako
McGrath
Best
George
Cole
Furlong
Itoje
BillyV
Murray
Sexton
Henshaw
Joseph
Seymour
Hogg
Williams

Fair enough

Marler
Owens
Sinckler
AWJ
POM
SOB
Stander
Warburton
Tipuric
Faletau
Webb
Farrell
Te'o
Payne
Daly
Watson
North

Really?

Kruis
Lawes
Henderson
Moriarty
Youngs
Biggar
Nowell

WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK!!!

Davies
Halfpenny

Good classification system

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I reckon Tipuric is in the 'of course' column. And obviously Launch should be there as well.
Have I mentioned just how angry I am about this shit...?.

Eugene Wrayburn wrote:Of course
Mako
McGrath
Best
George
Cole
Furlong
Itoje
BillyV
Murray
Sexton
Henshaw
Joseph
Seymour
Hogg
Williams

Fair enough

Marler
Owens
Sinckler
AWJ
POM
SOB
Stander
Warburton
Tipuric
Faletau
Webb
Farrell
Te'o
Payne
Daly
Watson
North

Really?

Kruis
Lawes
Henderson
Moriarty
Youngs
Biggar
Nowell

WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK!!!

Davies
Halfpenny

Bit harsh on Warburton and Tips who were both outstanding through the 6N. I'd put Farrel in the of course pile as well - NH centre play wasn't that outstanding during the tournament.

Agree that JD2 doesn't deserve to be there on current form, nor Halfpenny. Im not sure that JJ was an automatic dead on selection either, Scotland aside this wasn't his best tournament.

Stander should be in the of course column. Moriaty in "fair enough" due to Gloucester form and versatility. Not sure what Henderson Kruis and Lawes are doing in the "really" column. Farrell, Faletau and Daley upgrade to "of course" for me. Young sand Nowell prob move to "fair enough."

I'm curious what people may view Hamish Watson's shortcomings as because he was fantastic in basically every game. On the floor, linking, carrying, hassling halfbacks, disrupting everything and scrapping for every bit of possession.

Warburton certainly returned to some form* after being a bit poor for quite a long time, but without the captaincy and with Tipuric doing a fantastic job of all the 7 duties. Yet is now starting Lions 7, captain and king of the universe? Don't get me wrong he's a great player and probably the best shout for captain but people seem to have gone a bit overboard on his performances.

*Except when Scotland tore Wales' breakdown to bits.

The flipside to this is Warburic doing a number on England's breakdown. Gatland just seems hugely selective about which of these performances count and which don't.

Mikey Brown wrote:I'm curious what people may view Hamish Watson's shortcomings as because he was fantastic in basically every game. On the floor, linking, carrying, hassling halfbacks, disrupting everything and scrapping for every bit of possession.

Warburton certainly returned to some form* after being a bit poor for quite a long time, but without the captaincy and with Tipuric doing a fantastic job of all the 7 duties. Yet is now starting Lions 7, captain and king of the universe? Don't get me wrong he's a great player and probably the best shout for captain but people seem to have gone a bit overboard on his performances.

*Except when Scotland tore Wales' breakdown to bits.

The flipside to this is Warburic doing a number on England's breakdown. Gatland just seems hugely selective about which of these performances count and which don't.

I'm wondering if the paucity of actual 7s in NH comps is down to a pathological aversion to any digression from "tackling" as the primary role. Gatland would be one of the least flexible coaches in the world.

For me:

Hogg, North, Joseph, Farrell, Daley, Sexton, Murray, McGrath, George, Furlong, Itoje, Kruis, Stander, Warbuton, Vunipola

Mako, Owens, Cole, AWJ, Faletau, Webb, Biggar, Williams

Hooky wrote:For me:

Hogg, North, Joseph, Farrell, Daley, Sexton, Murray, McGrath, George, Furlong, Itoje, Kruis, Stander, Warbuton, Vunipola

Mako, Owens, Cole, AWJ, Faletau, Webb, Biggar, Williams

Why haven't you got Ryan Jones at 7?

Mikey Brown wrote:I'm curious what people may view Hamish Watson's shortcomings as because he was fantastic in basically every game. On the floor, linking, carrying, hassling halfbacks, disrupting everything and scrapping for every bit of possession.

Warburton certainly returned to some form* after being a bit poor for quite a long time, but without the captaincy and with Tipuric doing a fantastic job of all the 7 duties. Yet is now starting Lions 7, captain and king of the universe? Don't get me wrong he's a great player and probably the best shout for captain but people seem to have gone a bit overboard on his performances.

*Except when Scotland tore Wales' breakdown to bits.

The flipside to this is Warburic doing a number on England's breakdown. Gatland just seems hugely selective about which of these performances count and which don't.

This is the conundrum. Warburton had a very good campaign. Tipuric had a better 6N in my opinion and Watson was very good. However, I think Gatland is set on the power game, Gatlandball v1, and so will move the most robust open side to the 7 shirt and will go for a big ball carrier at 8 and an aggressive blind side (a few options there). I don't think playing Warburton at 6 was ever in Gatlands mind for this tour.

I don't see how any of the flanker options could be in the of course option. You could remove any of them and put in Barclay or watson or just remove them without it being a heinous crime. Warburton had a good 6N but wasn't miles ahead of the rest and of course wasn't playing at 7 and as Mike Brown says wales got hammered at the breakdown by Scotland

Yes, Wales got hammered by Scotland, although Tipuric was perhaps the one decent player in a defeated pack. Equally, England destroyed Scotland, and Wales did the job on Ireland. Care to pick the bones out of any of that?

I like this way of classifying but a few changes for me.

Of course
Mako
McGrath
George
Furlong
Itoje
Tipuric
Stander
BillyV
Murray
Sexton
Farrell
Henshaw
Joseph
Seymour
Hogg
Williams

Fair enough

Cole
Marler
Owens
Best
POM
SOB
Warburton
Faletau
Webb
Te'o
Daly
North

Really?

Sinkler
AWJ
Kruis
Lawes
Henderson
Moriarty
Youngs
Payne
Watson
Nowell

WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK!!!

Biggar
Davies
Halfpenny

Sandydragon wrote:Yes, Wales got hammered by Scotland, although Tipuric was perhaps the one decent player in a defeated pack. Equally, England destroyed Scotland, and Wales did the job on Ireland. Care to pick the bones out of any of that?

I did. All of the flanker selections are fair enough. None are of course.

I wouldn't be surprised to see Stander - SOB - Vunipola backrow. Big is beautiful.

Mellsblue wrote:I wouldn't be surprised to see Stander - SOB - Vunipola backrow. Big is beautiful.

I wouldn't be surprised at all, though he may start Warburton and leave SOB on the bench to start

Eugene Wrayburn wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:Yes, Wales got hammered by Scotland, although Tipuric was perhaps the one decent player in a defeated pack. Equally, England destroyed Scotland, and Wales did the job on Ireland. Care to pick the bones out of any of that?

I did. All of the flanker selections are fair enough. None are of course.

I disagree. Tipuric hardly put a foot wrong all tournament.

Tips was one of the best players on the championship, but he won't get near the test team barring injury.

No shoehorning in of both BillyV and Faletau, then? I reckon we could see that...

Either that or Faletau will be on the bench.

We surely must see a number of partnerships in the team. It just makes sense. So I would put Itoje and Kruis together, Murray and Sexton together. We, unfortunately, don't have many other options then, but we can have Mako, Cole. Itoje, Kruis. Murray, Sexton, Henshaw. North, LWilliams.

I think that's a likely scenario. Which would see a team like:

Mako
Best
Cole
Itoje
Kruis
Stander
Warburton
BillyV
Murray
Sexton
North
Henshaw
Joseph
LWilliams
Hogg

McGrath, George, Furlong, Launch (goddamn, err...Henderson), Faletau, Youngs, Farrell, Daly

Stom wrote:No shoehorning in of both BillyV and Faletau, then? I reckon we could see that...

Either that or Faletau will be on the bench.

We surely must see a number of partnerships in the team. It just makes sense. So I would put Itoje and Kruis together, Murray and Sexton together. We, unfortunately, don't have many other options then, but we can have Mako, Cole. Itoje, Kruis. Murray, Sexton, Henshaw. North, LWilliams.

I think that's a likely scenario. Which would see a team like:

Mako
Best
Cole
Itoje
Kruis
Stander
Warburton
BillyV
Murray
Sexton
North
Henshaw
Joseph
LWilliams
Hogg

McGrath, George, Furlong, Launch (goddamn, err...Henderson), Faletau, Youngs, Farrell, Daly

Obviously a lot can happen before the 1st test, but that doesn't look too far off, although id have Furlong starting and Youngs vs Webb isn't a done deal.

Sandydragon wrote:

Stom wrote:No shoehorning in of both BillyV and Faletau, then? I reckon we could see that...

Either that or Faletau will be on the bench.

We surely must see a number of partnerships in the team. It just makes sense. So I would put Itoje and Kruis together, Murray and Sexton together. We, unfortunately, don't have many other options then, but we can have Mako, Cole. Itoje, Kruis. Murray, Sexton, Henshaw. North, LWilliams.

I think that's a likely scenario. Which would see a team like:

Mako
Best
Cole
Itoje
Kruis
Stander
Warburton
BillyV
Murray
Sexton
North
Henshaw
Joseph
LWilliams
Hogg

McGrath, George, Furlong, Launch (goddamn, err...Henderson), Faletau, Youngs, Farrell, Daly

Obviously a lot can happen before the 1st test, but that doesn't look too far off, although id have Furlong starting and Youngs vs Webb isn't a done deal.

I only have them that way round for the partnerships (Mako and Cole, Youngs and Farrell). Otherwise I would make the swaps you suggested. But I feel those partnerships are important considering the lack of time.

Stom wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:

Stom wrote:No shoehorning in of both BillyV and Faletau, then? I reckon we could see that...

Either that or Faletau will be on the bench.

We surely must see a number of partnerships in the team. It just makes sense. So I would put Itoje and Kruis together, Murray and Sexton together. We, unfortunately, don't have many other options then, but we can have Mako, Cole. Itoje, Kruis. Murray, Sexton, Henshaw. North, LWilliams.

I think that's a likely scenario. Which would see a team like:

Mako
Best
Cole
Itoje
Kruis
Stander
Warburton
BillyV
Murray
Sexton
North
Henshaw
Joseph
LWilliams
Hogg

McGrath, George, Furlong, Launch (goddamn, err...Henderson), Faletau, Youngs, Farrell, Daly

Obviously a lot can happen before the 1st test, but that doesn't look too far off, although id have Furlong starting and Youngs vs Webb isn't a done deal.

I only have them that way round for the partnerships (Mako and Cole, Youngs and Farrell). Otherwise I would make the swaps you suggested. But I feel those partnerships are important considering the lack of time.

I get that and I agree that with such a short time frame, there are some partnerships that are worth preserving, unless there is a huge case to suggest otherwise.