RugbyRebels

Donny osmond wrote:Do we know what the democratic will of "the catalan people" is?

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Certainly we would have a better idea of it if the state repression hadn't quashed any expression of it.

Even with a turnout of 43%, the tally of those in favour was so great that the votes in favour as a % of total registered voters was greater than that for Leave in the Brexit referendum.

Zhivago wrote:

Donny osmond wrote:Do we know what the democratic will of "the catalan people" is?

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Certainly we would have a better idea of it if the state repression hadn't quashed any expression of it.

Even with a turnout of 43%, the tally of those in favour was so great that the votes in favour as a % of total registered voters was greater than that for Leave in the Brexit referendum.

Again, when many people voted multiple times I really wouldn't even consider reading much into it, and with such a low voter turnout I wouldn't read much into it. Illegal and invalid votes are nothing more than a bit of PR and don't establish even the faint whiff of a mandate.

It does clearly show a lot of people would like a referendum, but we also know a lot of people think there's no basis for one, and actually both groups have some reasonable points

Digby wrote:

Zhivago wrote:

Donny osmond wrote:Do we know what the democratic will of "the catalan people" is?

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Certainly we would have a better idea of it if the state repression hadn't quashed any expression of it.

Even with a turnout of 43%, the tally of those in favour was so great that the votes in favour as a % of total registered voters was greater than that for Leave in the Brexit referendum.

Again, when many people voted multiple times I really wouldn't even consider reading much into it, and with such a low voter turnout I wouldn't read much into it. Illegal and invalid votes are nothing more than a bit of PR and don't establish even the faint whiff of a mandate.

It does clearly show a lot of people would like a referendum, but we also know a lot of people think there's no basis for one, and actually both groups have some reasonable points

Just to be clear, the Capitalist reaction that I refer to is against the expression of their democratic will, and against the possibility of secession. I'm not claiming that the democratic will of the people is to secede... We cannot be sure of that because the referendum was suppressed.

Zhivago wrote:

Digby wrote:

Zhivago wrote:
Certainly we would have a better idea of it if the state repression hadn't quashed any expression of it.

Even with a turnout of 43%, the tally of those in favour was so great that the votes in favour as a % of total registered voters was greater than that for Leave in the Brexit referendum.

Again, when many people voted multiple times I really wouldn't even consider reading much into it, and with such a low voter turnout I wouldn't read much into it. Illegal and invalid votes are nothing more than a bit of PR and don't establish even the faint whiff of a mandate.

It does clearly show a lot of people would like a referendum, but we also know a lot of people think there's no basis for one, and actually both groups have some reasonable points

Just to be clear, the Capitalist reaction that I refer to is against the expression of their democratic will, and against the possibility of secession. I'm not claiming that the democratic will of the people is to secede... We cannot be sure of that because the referendum was suppressed.

I don't think there's an established a democratic will, for either camp, so to claim there's a reaction to something which hasn't happened and isn't a clearly defined position seems more than a little partial. There's a big movement, that's only been a big movement for a brief period in Spain's history coming on the back of the financial crash and austerity and high unemployment, that movement doesn't clearly hold a majority or mandate, the movement may fade given this was barely on the horizon in 2005, and it's asking Spain to consider that Spain can't vote on on Spanish matters, only people who're currently resident in the area that some people are seeking to establish as independent.

I'd also contest any reaction against one group looking to secede is a capitalist one. Yes must people against Catalonian independence will favour capitalism, but frankly most people favour capitalism including those in favour of independence. And too the idea only capitalist states seek to keep an enlarged state does rather ignore the history of the Soviet Union, which was frankly far more brutal and dictatorial than the current Spanish government, just as Franco was

So we're left with ongoing political dialogue with some competing views on the best way forward that don't allow for an awful lot of compromise, that will be continually worked on, but no immediately getting what a sizeable faction want isn't the same as ignoring the will of the people.

Digby wrote:

Zhivago wrote:

Digby wrote:
Again, when many people voted multiple times I really wouldn't even consider reading much into it, and with such a low voter turnout I wouldn't read much into it. Illegal and invalid votes are nothing more than a bit of PR and don't establish even the faint whiff of a mandate.

It does clearly show a lot of people would like a referendum, but we also know a lot of people think there's no basis for one, and actually both groups have some reasonable points

Just to be clear, the Capitalist reaction that I refer to is against the expression of their democratic will, and against the possibility of secession. I'm not claiming that the democratic will of the people is to secede... We cannot be sure of that because the referendum was suppressed.

I don't think there's an established a democratic will, for either camp, so to claim there's a reaction to something which hasn't happened and isn't a clearly defined position seems more than a little partial. There's a big movement, that's only been a big movement for a brief period in Spain's history coming on the back of the financial crash and austerity and high unemployment, that movement doesn't clearly hold a majority or mandate, the movement may fade given this was barely on the horizon in 2005, and it's asking Spain to consider that Spain can't vote on on Spanish matters, only people who're currently resident in the area that some people are seeking to establish as independent.

I'd also contest any reaction against one group looking to secede is a capitalist one. Yes must people against Catalonian independence will favour capitalism, but frankly most people favour capitalism including those in favour of independence. And too the idea only capitalist states seek to keep an enlarged state does rather ignore the history of the Soviet Union, which was frankly far more brutal and dictatorial than the current Spanish government, just as Franco was

So we're left with ongoing political dialogue with some competing views on the best way forward that don't allow for an awful lot of compromise, that will be continually worked on, but no immediately getting what a sizeable faction want isn't the same as ignoring the will of the people.

It flared up big time since 2010 because the constitutional court made changes to the statute of autonomy that was approved by voters in 2006. But to say the movement itself is only a recent thing is tosh. There is a long history of Catalan feeling of nationalism.

Zhivago wrote:
It flared up big time since 2010 because the constitutional court made changes to the statute of autonomy that was approved by voters in 2006. But to say the movement itself is only a recent thing is tosh. There is a long history of Catalan feeling of nationalism.

Historically it's seemed rather more along the lines of Cornish independence, yes it's there, yes there's a history, but in any practical sense it's a fringe piece of thinking which rarely intrudes on the lives of most people. Post the financial crash that minor fringe movement has grown vastly, and Spain hasn't understood (yet) how to respond

Digby wrote:

Zhivago wrote:
It flared up big time since 2010 because the constitutional court made changes to the statute of autonomy that was approved by voters in 2006. But to say the movement itself is only a recent thing is tosh. There is a long history of Catalan feeling of nationalism.

Historically it's seemed rather more along the lines of Cornish independence, yes it's there, yes there's a history, but in any practical sense it's a fringe piece of thinking which rarely intrudes on the lives of most people. Post the financial crash that minor fringe movement has grown vastly, and Spain hasn't understood (yet) how to respond

Now you're being ridiculous. Catalonia has had much more autonomy than Cornwall over the centuries. Cornwall doesn't even have a parliament. Such a comparison is ludicrous.

Zhivago wrote:

Digby wrote:

Zhivago wrote:
It flared up big time since 2010 because the constitutional court made changes to the statute of autonomy that was approved by voters in 2006. But to say the movement itself is only a recent thing is tosh. There is a long history of Catalan feeling of nationalism.

Historically it's seemed rather more along the lines of Cornish independence, yes it's there, yes there's a history, but in any practical sense it's a fringe piece of thinking which rarely intrudes on the lives of most people. Post the financial crash that minor fringe movement has grown vastly, and Spain hasn't understood (yet) how to respond

Now you're being ridiculous. Catalonia has had much more autonomy than Cornwall over the centuries. Cornwall doesn't even have a parliament. Such a comparison is ludicrous.

But the number of people pushing for independence wasn't large, the status quo was more readily acceptable as with Cornwall, even if there were also more devolved powers in Spain

Surely much more akin to Scotland

Always present and a significant minority; historically overshadowed by their louder, more violent neighbours; with their own government, language, culture etc.
I'm not sure on this, but it sounds like they've gotten used to more devolved powers than Scotland too.
Last few years, that minority has grown to 40-50% level

#Indepence4Munster

You will not get Cork back in the bottle.

kk67 wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:
With the recent trend to join the fight against ISIS, I wonder if some of that energy will be directed towards Catalonia? The food would be a lot nicer, less far to travel and you could always hop over the open border into France for a bit of R&R.

Sign me up.

The ski season will be starting in Andorra quite soon, take your ski boots.

Who's been editing my posts....?.

Since the referendum it appears that 15000 jobs have been lost in Catalonia as companies move out.

The bigger question I suppose is how far the Spanish government will go with the treason charges. There probably a good opportunity to calm all of this down, but recent actions suggest that Madrid is quite capable of stoking things back up again.

Sandydragon wrote:Since the referendum it appears that 15000 jobs have been lost in Catalonia as companies move out.

The bigger question I suppose is how far the Spanish government will go with the treason charges. There probably a good opportunity to calm all of this down, but recent actions suggest that Madrid is quite capable of stoking things back up again.

REEEEEAAAALLLLY


But, but, but.... we've been told for years that nationalists can agitate for independence, with all the accompanying uncertainty, and then go thru a huge painful expensive divorce with almost no downsides whatsoever! Anyone who ever raised an eyebrow was shouted down as being too negative!

Its like the whole world has gone topsy turvy...

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Project Fear for the win!

I suspect that the problem is that the Catalans went for the wrong colour of independence, and lacked that "strong and stable" leadership that we have in abundance.

Donny osmond wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:Since the referendum it appears that 15000 jobs have been lost in Catalonia as companies move out.

The bigger question I suppose is how far the Spanish government will go with the treason charges. There probably a good opportunity to calm all of this down, but recent actions suggest that Madrid is quite capable of stoking things back up again.

REEEEEAAAALLLLY


But, but, but.... we've been told for years that nationalists can agitate for independence, with all the accompanying uncertainty, and then go thru a huge painful expensive divorce with almost no downsides whatsoever! Anyone who ever raised an eyebrow was shouted down as being too negative!

Its like the whole world has gone topsy turvy...

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Separatists who seek independence without any kind of plan are just conning people. Brexit is causing enough problems, Catalonia would find life a lot harder than the UK having to start from scratch in many ways.