RugbyRebels

Who is visibly deteriorating? Is it the set up or exposure to a higher standard of rugby? The little I saw of the European Cup seemed to involve similar wilting.

16th man wrote: We have reached that point in the cycle where form players go into camp and visibly deteriorate from exposure to the set up.

That is probably true and therefore as demoralising a situation as imagineable to an England fan.

He needs to go or have some experienced coaches and consultants bought in.

pandion wrote:He needs to go or have some experienced coaches and consultants bought in.

They don’t get much more experienced than Jones. You either stick with him or move on. I’d go for the second option.

The only hope is that we can do a France in 2011 and mutiny our way to a world cup final

Mellsblue wrote:

pandion wrote:He needs to go or have some experienced coaches and consultants bought in.

They don’t get much more experienced than Jones. You either stick with him or move on. I’d go for the second option.

Me too. Jones has shot his bolt. Change now would inspire. No change and things can only get worse.

Mellsblue wrote:

pandion wrote:He needs to go or have some experienced coaches and consultants bought in.

They don’t get much more experienced than Jones. You either stick with him or move on. I’d go for the second option.

But one experienced coach in a team rarely works. I'd even be cool with Jake White helping out if it sorts out our problems.

Oakboy wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:

pandion wrote:He needs to go or have some experienced coaches and consultants bought in.

They don’t get much more experienced than Jones. You either stick with him or move on. I’d go for the second option.

Me too. Jones has shot his bolt. Change now would inspire. No change and things can only get worse.

Yep. You called it early. I wanted to give him SA to prove the 6N was an anomaly but the last two matches - against a weak, for various reasons, SA - have proved it wasn’t.
FYI, the Team Dors t-shirts arrive next week.

pandion wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:

pandion wrote:He needs to go or have some experienced coaches and consultants bought in.

They don’t get much more experienced than Jones. You either stick with him or move on. I’d go for the second option.

But one experienced coach in a team rarely works. I'd even be cool with Jake White helping out if it sorts out our problems.

Can’t say I agree. Even if you are correct, if Jones thought it were required he’d sort it. If someone told him he needed it, I suggest he’d do a Ben Youngs.

pandion wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:

pandion wrote:He needs to go or have some experienced coaches and consultants bought in.

They don’t get much more experienced than Jones. You either stick with him or move on. I’d go for the second option.

But one experienced coach in a team rarely works. I'd even be cool with Jake White helping out if it sorts out our problems.

I'm not sure what question Jake White is the answer to, but I'm pretty sure it's not one I want to ask.

On the plus side, Wisemantel looks as though he's worth the money given what he's achieved with our backs. And Gustard's departure is looking more and more of a positive with each test.

Puja

Would have White over Bothwick currently, I wouldn't even mind Rowntree over Bothwick.

Could do with bringing Smith and Ella back to work on the breakdown and Skills sets.

Just to play devils advocate......would an amazing performance in the third year, ie 70 mins of our first 20mins from the first test and the first 10mins of the second test, change the doubters minds?

Mellsblue wrote:Just to play devils advocate......would an amazing performance in the third year, ie 70 mins of our first 20mins from the first test and the first 10mins of the second test, change the doubters minds?

Perhaps. The next question is whether, in the long term, it would be better if we lost. What would be better is if Jones were indisposed from now till the 3rd test and then we won!

Oakboy wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:Just to play devils advocate......would an amazing performance in the third year, ie 70 mins of our first 20mins from the first test and the first 10mins of the second test, change the doubters minds?

Perhaps. The next question is whether, in the long term, it would be better if we lost. What would be better is if Jones were indisposed from now till the 3rd test and then we won!

It’s a far from impossible request. 5000ZAR and a car jacking is yours.

Mellsblue wrote:Just to play devils advocate......would an amazing performance in the third year, ie 70 mins of our first 20mins from the first test and the first 10mins of the second test, change the doubters minds?

IF that can happen, then maybe. What I suspect is more likely to happen is an ignominious scuffle in torrential rain that we sneak, thus justifying that everything's okay. Double points if it's achieved after dropping Curry for Robshaw.

Puja

If England only get good in the immediate aftermath of getting a new coach, then surely the time to replace Eddie is just before the world cup. Likewise, if consistent excellence is to be maintained then I think a coach a year should be the aim.

Puja wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:Just to play devils advocate......would an amazing performance in the third year, ie 70 mins of our first 20mins from the first test and the first 10mins of the second test, change the doubters minds?

after dropping Curry for Robshaw.

Puja

I'm all for trench humour - I am English after all - but this is going too far.

Hang on, I thought we were all now convinced it was heavy legs and the world cup would see a huge upsurge in form, sweeping all before it.

It's in the bag.

Eddie is just lulling the world into a false sense of security.

They have actually been training the poor discipline and handling skills.

It's all going to plan.

The 3rd test will confirm this.

Well that went South pretty quickly. England are better than this. As much as I enjoy these manic cycles of optimism and pessimism, the rugby world is better served by the belligerent brutality of a classic coordinated English assault on claims for No.1. I really hope you pull out of it, but I have to say, Eddie is not your man. His lack of appreciation for the role of the bench in the modern game is inexcusable. Sort it out, but ideally not before Japan next year.

morepork wrote:Well that went South pretty quickly. England are better than this. As much as I enjoy these manic cycles of optimism and pessimism, the rugby world is better served by the belligerent brutality of a classic coordinated English assault on claims for No.1. I really hope you pull out of it, but I have to say, Eddie is not your man. His lack of appreciation for the role of the bench in the modern game is inexcusable. Sort it out, but ideally not before Japan next year.

Seems to me that's exactly what they've got from General Sir Edward Anthony Cecil Hogmanay Jones.

Mellsblue wrote:Just to play devils advocate......would an amazing performance in the third year, ie 70 mins of our first 20mins from the first test and the first 10mins of the second test, change the doubters minds?

It shouldn't. Players go and do remarkable things despite their coaches all the time. One off events should not be given too much weight. I'd want to wait to see it backed up in the Autumn.

Which is just as well, as confirmation bias is a wonderful thing, so it wouldn't have anyway.

Speaking of confirmation bias, I'm mulling over whether Farrell breaking his leg would have a bigger impact than sacking Jones.

I have to say, as gash as we are right now, I don't see sacking Jones at this point as an option. But we can certainly tear up that contract extension if we don't see a real reaction from him. Nobody can hide from the persisting issues at this point.

Far too much talk (on and off the pitch), and far too little action (on and off the pitch).

Eddie has been too slow to react to the obvious problems with the backrow. Locks at flanker, flankers in the second row. These are specialist positions, and whilst some players may be able to put in a shift at club level, when they're playing against players who can do the job at test level, they struggle.

Brown on the wing? This is just an insult to any EQ winger who is currently not injured. I'm sure Jones will wax lyrical about Brown scoring in each test in order to justify the selection, but SA scored for fun on Brown's wing in the first test. Besides, the first try owed as much to powderpuff defence than anything amazing Brown did, he just had to stay upright. The second test try was a simple run in.

Then there's Farrell and the senior players apparently putting everything right by taking ownership and having meetings. To which the net result was absolutely no change. Either the team doesn't respect the senior players enough to follow the advice, or maybe the senior players are the ones with the problems with regards to discipline and not following their own advice. Farrell's continued desire to turn down kickable points yesterday was as brazen a sign that he is not leadership material. Maybe if we're 6 points down with 5 to go, it would make sense to kick to the corner, but SA had taken control and were keeping the scoreboard ticking over whilst we were living on the glories of the early tries. Take the points! We lacked the execution and composure to trouble the try line once SA sorted themselves out. You have to take the points!

Our defence has been a shambles, and that isn't just this tour. It was abysmal in the 6Ns too. We're soon to be without a defence coach, but it would seem we lack one as it is.

As for attack. Eddie has tried to fill the gap himself, plus use old mates here and there. It doesn't seem to be helping the players at times. We looked ok in the early stages of both tests in terms of attack, but just fell apart afterwards. Players unable to hold on to the ball or pass accurately.

The knives are well and truly being sharpened by the media and only a series win in SA would have averted that.

SA are more than worthy winners of each test, but we haven't really made them look that good. They've just made us look bad.

If we played each of the top 10 nations in a one off test match, each with the same preparation time, I think I'd only be confident of beating Fiji and perhaps Argentina and then there would still be quite a few ifs and buts. Teams have worked out that we can't cope with intensity and are more than happy to give them the ball back whenever we get it.

All the reaction so far from Eddie and the team has just been talk. No change, or just nowhere near enough.

WaspInWales wrote:Far too much talk (on and off the pitch), and far too little action (on and off the pitch).

Eddie has been too slow to react to the obvious problems with the backrow. Locks at flanker, flankers in the second row. These are specialist positions, and whilst some players may be able to put in a shift at club level, when they're playing against players who can do the job at test level, they struggle.

Brown on the wing? This is just an insult to any EQ winger who is currently not injured. I'm sure Jones will wax lyrical about Brown scoring in each test in order to justify the selection, but SA scored for fun on Brown's wing in the first test. Besides, the first try owed as much to powderpuff defence than anything amazing Brown did, he just had to stay upright. The second test try was a simple run in.

Then there's Farrell and the senior players apparently putting everything right by taking ownership and having meetings. To which the net result was absolutely no change. Either the team doesn't respect the senior players enough to follow the advice, or maybe the senior players are the ones with the problems with regards to discipline and not following their own advice. Farrell's continued desire to turn down kickable points yesterday was as brazen a sign that he is not leadership material. Maybe if we're 6 points down with 5 to go, it would make sense to kick to the corner, but SA had taken control and were keeping the scoreboard ticking over whilst we were living on the glories of the early tries. Take the points! We lacked the execution and composure to trouble the try line once SA sorted themselves out. You have to take the points!

Our defence has been a shambles, and that isn't just this tour. It was abysmal in the 6Ns too. We're soon to be without a defence coach, but it would seem we lack one as it is.

As for attack. Eddie has tried to fill the gap himself, plus use old mates here and there. It doesn't seem to be helping the players at times. We looked ok in the early stages of both tests in terms of attack, but just fell apart afterwards. Players unable to hold on to the ball or pass accurately.

The knives are well and truly being sharpened by the media and only a series win in SA would have averted that.

SA are more than worthy winners of each test, but we haven't really made them look that good. They've just made us look bad.

If we played each of the top 10 nations in a one off test match, each with the same preparation time, I think I'd only be confident of beating Fiji and perhaps Argentina and then there would still be quite a few ifs and buts. Teams have worked out that we can't cope with intensity and are more than happy to give them the ball back whenever we get it.

All the reaction so far from Eddie and the team has just been talk. No change, or just nowhere near enough.

yep plus more stuff