RugbyRebels

Galfon wrote:

Digby wrote:Why do people even especially want paracetamol?

a much cheaper and less disruptive mild pain reliever, compared to say alcohol or opiates.Also a preferred alternative for peeps sensitive to asprin et al.

But surely if we're talking Covid you'd take the pain rather than the potentially disruptive consumption of paracetamol? Okay it might be really bad, but then you'd need something much stronger anyway

Digby wrote: But surely if we're talking Covid you'd take the pain rather than the potentially disruptive consumption of paracetamol? Okay it might be really bad, but then you'd need something much stronger anyway

The current NHS says people with symptoms should drink plenty of water and take paracetamol (but not to exceed the recommended dose..)
Presumably this is because early symptoms can include mild pain and fever.
I would say generally people don't like feeling sh!t, and do latch on to the latest medical advice.
They would not necessarily correlate the role of elevated temperature in the body's early immune response to disease.
The other aspect is the panic/selfish buying behaviour:
Not reported much for Italy where they have been hit harder, but rife in UK and also evident in US.
This seems a cultural thing ...
Also (just a hunch, not based on scientific report) despite it's toxicity to the liver in cases of high or continued use, there are some who seem to habitually take paracetamol as part of a broad pain-killer/sleep-aid across the counter package.- don't get this personally, but see it going on.
This will also feed into the panic response.
The situation is crying out for some organisation snd control.That news clip of a critical-care Nurse in melt-down when she couldn't get food for herself was not nice..

Galfon wrote: Presumably this is because early symptoms can include mild pain and fever.
I would say generally people don't like feeling sh!t, and do latch on to the latest medical advice.
They would not necessarily correlate the role of elevated temperature in the body's early immune response to disease.

If what I've long understood about the increase in body temp being part of the body's natural response then it's fine, if it's just people don't like feeling bad then the snowflakes need to suck it up. Merely I have been wondering why shops were selling out because of a query in this area

Which Tyler wrote:Yay!
Our Prime Minister has finally decided that knowledge may be better than ignorance after all, so we're going to ramp up testing.
About f***ing time!
That pealing back was by far the biggest mis-stwp of this whole thing.
When you have the data, you can I reduce measures at the right time. With testing, you can send people back to work knowing they're healthy, or send them back in knowing that they've had it, and should now be immune.

Is immunity a given? Genuine q.

Digby wrote:..the snowflakes need to suck it up.
Merely I have been wondering why shops were selling out because of a query in this area

To be fair, if the nhs-code advises 'take Para.' and it does make you feel less sh!t when taking it, then the digby-code will probs. be less followed in general.

The shortage surprised me at first but I suspect it is now manufactured in huge quantities at low cost in places like India and China.
Apart from the unexpected explosion in demand, there will be an opportunity to make a few bucks/rupees/ renminbi perhaps.

re. Immunity -double infections have been reported with Covid as with all diseases; China's now seeing a 2nd outbreak due to travelling.There are already 2 strains of this knocking about I believe, so it may depend on the speed it can mutate.

Galfon wrote:

Digby wrote:..the snowflakes need to suck it up.
Merely I have been wondering why shops were selling out because of a query in this area

To be fair, if the nhs-code advises 'take Para.' and it does make you feel less sh!t when taking it, then the digby-code will probs. be less followed in general.

The shortage surprised me at first but I suspect it is now manufactured in huge quantities at low cost in places like India and China.
Apart from the unexpected explosion in demand, there will be an opportunity to make a few bucks/rupees/ renminbi perhaps.

re. Immunity -double infections have been reported with Covid as with all diseases; China's now seeing a 2nd outbreak due to travelling.There are already 2 strains of this knocking about I believe, so it may depend on the speed it can mutate.

Frankly, a lot of contigemcy planning is based on the assumption of folks coming back to work immune....

Galfon wrote:

Digby wrote:..the snowflakes need to suck it up.
Merely I have been wondering why shops were selling out because of a query in this area

To be fair, if the nhs-code advises 'take Para.' and it does make you feel less sh!t when taking it, then the digby-code will probs. be less followed in general.

At least I will not be taking up much stock, I probably average a paracetamol tablet once every 2-3 years. Like all sane people I use whisky to manage discomfort

The govt have released their COVID-19 info, data, models, research data etc etc. If you have a spare fortnight, and approx 80% of us will have at some point over the next few months, then follow this link:

https://www.gov.uk/government/groups/sc ... 9-response

Banquo wrote:

Which Tyler wrote:Yay!
Our Prime Minister has finally decided that knowledge may be better than ignorance after all, so we're going to ramp up testing.
About f***ing time!
That pealing back was by far the biggest mis-stwp of this whole thing.
When you have the data, you can I reduce measures at the right time. With testing, you can send people back to work knowing they're healthy, or send them back in knowing that they've had it, and should now be immune.

Is immunity a given? Genuine q.

Yeah I’ve seen this mentioned a few times as if it’s a given. Perhaps it is, but not clear to me.

Also whether ‘immunity’ removes your likelihood of being a carrier/spreader?

Mikey Brown wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Which Tyler wrote:Yay!
Our Prime Minister has finally decided that knowledge may be better than ignorance after all, so we're going to ramp up testing.
About f***ing time!
That pealing back was by far the biggest mis-stwp of this whole thing.
When you have the data, you can I reduce measures at the right time. With testing, you can send people back to work knowing they're healthy, or send them back in knowing that they've had it, and should now be immune.

Is immunity a given? Genuine q.

Yeah I’ve seen this mentioned a few times as if it’s a given. Perhaps it is, but not clear to me.

Also whether ‘immunity’ removes your likelihood of being a carrier/spreader?

Depends on the life cycle of the virus. HIV and Herpes viruses can exist as a latent form where their genomes are inserted into host cell chromosomal DNA. These can be activated by a subsequent infection, but the viral load will be much reduced as compared to the initial infection. Still able to spread, but much less effectively so. The coronavirus is a bit of an unknown here, and we don't really know if it is capable of existing in a latent form that can spring up again later. Apparently some forms of related viruses can indeed to this in domestic animals. You would need to screen for the presence of viral DNA in supposedly clear patients post-disease.


Sort of a big Phuck-Nose at this point.

Since the kids of key workers will all be stuck together every day, doesn't that mean that key workers are now most at risk of being infected?

This seems slightly insane to me.

morepork wrote:

Mikey Brown wrote:

Banquo wrote: Is immunity a given? Genuine q.

Yeah I’ve seen this mentioned a few times as if it’s a given. Perhaps it is, but not clear to me.

Also whether ‘immunity’ removes your likelihood of being a carrier/spreader?

Depends on the life cycle of the virus. HIV and Herpes viruses can exist as a latent form where their genomes are inserted into host cell chromosomal DNA. These can be activated by a subsequent infection, but the viral load will be much reduced as compared to the initial infection. Still able to spread, but much less effectively so. The coronavirus is a bit of an unknown here, and we don't really know if it is capable of existing in a latent form that can spring up again later. Apparently some forms of related viruses can indeed to this in domestic animals. You would need to screen for the presence of viral DNA in supposedly clear patients post-disease.


Sort of a big Phuck-Nose at this point.

Edit: viral RNA. The virus genome is RNA, which is much trickier to quantify than DNA.

Son of Mathonwy wrote:Since the kids of key workers will all be stuck together every day, doesn't that mean that key workers are now most at risk of being infected?

This seems slightly insane to me.

Better than those key workers possibly not being able to work. What would you do?

Son of Mathonwy wrote:Since the kids of key workers will all be stuck together every day, doesn't that mean that key workers are now most at risk of being infected?

This seems slightly insane to me.

Only if the kids are in fact infected. Mell’s post below reinforces the need for real data. Nationalise the test, determine risk for frontline staff and if clear, let them do their jobs. Having this data in hand will allow a focus of resources to the most appropriate space. Formally qualified people are the new currency, and the distribution of that currency needs to be regulated.

morepork wrote:

Son of Mathonwy wrote:Since the kids of key workers will all be stuck together every day, doesn't that mean that key workers are now most at risk of being infected?

This seems slightly insane to me.

Only if the kids are in fact infected. Mell’s post below reinforces the need for real data. Nationalise the test, determine risk for frontline staff and if clear, let them do their jobs. Having this data in hand will allow a focus of resources to the most appropriate space. Formally qualified people are the new currency, and the distribution of that currency needs to be regulated.

Dr Brilliant (great name ) says:
"And three, maybe most important, we begin to see large numbers of people—in particular nurses, home health care providers, doctors, policemen, firemen, and teachers who have had the disease—are immune, and we have tested them to know that they are not infectious any longer. And we have a system that identifies them, either a concert wristband or a card with their photograph and some kind of a stamp on it. Then we can be comfortable sending our children back to school, because we know the teacher is not infectious."

So he seems to be advising that we don't send kids to school till we have some confidence that the teachers are not infected. Presumably we'd also want confidence that the children - especially those of medical workers - are not infected.

My suggestion would be:

1) Key worker child-minding should only be available to children where both parents are key workers,
2) Children and teachers should test negative before they can come to school in the first instance, then periodically (or randomly?) afterwards,
3) Children should be kept in small groups (which do not change from day to day) and not do activities which involve contact.

Mellsblue wrote:

Son of Mathonwy wrote:Since the kids of key workers will all be stuck together every day, doesn't that mean that key workers are now most at risk of being infected?

This seems slightly insane to me.

Better than those key workers possibly not being able to work. What would you do?

See my reply to morepork

Son of Mathonwy wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:

Son of Mathonwy wrote:Since the kids of key workers will all be stuck together every day, doesn't that mean that key workers are now most at risk of being infected?

This seems slightly insane to me.

Better than those key workers possibly not being able to work. What would you do?

See my reply to morepork

Good job I posted the link to the interview to enable you to respond to my question

The problem is that if you don’t send the kids into school their parents might be removed from the front line response. The pros and cons have obviously been weighed up buy some big brains and this is the best solution. Mass testing is obviously an answer to a lot of issues. Now there is a test on the market that can tell whether you are currently or have previously been infected we will have even more info and answers.

With regards your three step plan:
A) from what I know this was the initial plan but was watered down under lobbying from various bodies
C) again from what I know speaking to local schools, this is the plan dependent on pupil: teacher ratios.

Son of Mathonwy wrote:

morepork wrote:

Son of Mathonwy wrote:Since the kids of key workers will all be stuck together every day, doesn't that mean that key workers are now most at risk of being infected?

This seems slightly insane to me.

Only if the kids are in fact infected. Mell’s post below reinforces the need for real data. Nationalise the test, determine risk for frontline staff and if clear, let them do their jobs. Having this data in hand will allow a focus of resources to the most appropriate space. Formally qualified people are the new currency, and the distribution of that currency needs to be regulated.

Dr Brilliant (great name ) says:
"And three, maybe most important, we begin to see large numbers of people—in particular nurses, home health care providers, doctors, policemen, firemen, and teachers who have had the disease—are immune, and we have tested them to know that they are not infectious any longer. And we have a system that identifies them, either a concert wristband or a card with their photograph and some kind of a stamp on it. Then we can be comfortable sending our children back to school, because we know the teacher is not infectious."

So he seems to be advising that we don't send kids to school till we have some confidence that the teachers are not infected. Presumably we'd also want confidence that the children - especially those of medical workers - are not infected.

My suggestion would be:

1) Key worker child-minding should only be available to children where both parents are key workers,
2) Children and teachers should test negative before they can come to school in the first instance, then periodically (or randomly?) afterwards,
3) Children should be kept in small groups (which do not change from day to day) and not do activities which involve contact.

So you will almost certainly lose a raft of key workers in the NHS who will stay and look after their kids rather than lose the likely higher income of the non key worker (where there are partners). I'd lose 10% of my team (and have lost 5% already as schools have adopted your policy off their own bat) on top of the 15% already gone to social distancing and self isolation (who almost certainly are not infected tbh). There is no perfect way of doing this, but what is certain is that the NHS will need every hand it can get in the short term, and there is no time to test in the numbers you suggest.

My team have been pretty great so far, and we are about to completely change our delivery model to keep our patients ticking over whilst freeing up staff who can help free up beds and resources in the acutes and community. Been great to see mindset change with our people, who remain positive and determined to help.

BTW- unless I've interpreted the govt's intervention incorrectly, what's the view of those laid-off folks who will get 80% of their previous salary which is great, but likely not have much to do (given they were laid off). Should they be given an option to volunteer outside their normal role?

On the volunteering note, my lad (who has had to take a pay cut in his day job), is gutted because he can no longer mentor (owing to social distancing etc) a group of deprived lads and lasses who would otherwise have no guidance; another societal casualty. Real shame, and not sure how this kind of 'hidden' activity can be emulated/replaced.

I’m hopeful this will occur. There seems to be plenty pieces of anecdotal evidence that volunteer support groups are being set up to help the vulnerable etc. The ‘Big Society’ will continue by those who already contribute but in different ways. My local district council already has a central administrator trying to streamline/guide different groups, resources, individual etc. Sadly, groups/people that used to benefit - such as those your son helps (kudos to him, btw) - will probably miss out as attention move to other demos. I’m currently part of a group looking at how free school meals can still be provided in my area. Shouldn’t be a tricky task given the demographics of where I live but it is an important one. I’m also trying to think of ways to keep my mini rugby training sessions in place without breaking any guidelines.....starting to come to the conclusion it is impossible to achieve anything meaning/worthwhile, though, beyond having a small group of 8 year olds randomly running round a rugby pitch.
With regards alternative employment. There is expansion in supermarkets already with 10,000s of new jobs opening up. It’s obvs not ideal but for those already out of a job but there are some limited alternatives. I’m hoping new markets open up for the unemployed. You can already see it in the delivery sector.

Mellsblue wrote:I’m hopeful this will occur. There seems to be plenty pieces of anecdotal evidence that volunteer support groups are being set up to help the vulnerable etc. The ‘Big Society’ will continue by those who already contribute but in different ways. My local district council already has a central administrator trying to streamline/guide different groups, resources, individual etc. Sadly, groups/people that used to benefit - such as those your son helps (kudos to him, btw) - will probably miss out as attention move to other demos. I’m currently part of a group looking at how free school meals can still be provided in my area. Shouldn’t be a tricky task given the demographics of where I live but it is an important one. I’m also trying to think of ways to keep my mini rugby training sessions in place without breaking any guidelines.....starting to come to the conclusion it is impossible to achieve anything meaning/worthwhile, though, beyond having a small group of 8 year olds randomly running round a rugby pitch.
With regards alternative employment. There is expansion in supermarkets already with 10,000s of new jobs opening up. It’s obvs not ideal but for those already out of a job but there are some limited alternatives. I’m hoping new markets open up for the unemployed. You can already see it in the delivery sector.

Could turn your mini rugby into a mini boot camp; devise exercises that they can do whilst carrying their own ball, slaloming round cones, end with a little kick into a circle of cones or summat (I know they don't kick at that age, but...). Distanced relay races? I'm sure there's lots of collateral online.

I do think there will be an upside in devising new ways of working.....though already our commissioners are talking about, well you will have to improve your productivity anyway so this a great way of forcing that- nobs.

Be interesting to see whether this is a decent 'predictor' or not....

https://www.visualcapitalist.com/global ... ss-ranked/

Banquo wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:I’m hopeful this will occur. There seems to be plenty pieces of anecdotal evidence that volunteer support groups are being set up to help the vulnerable etc. The ‘Big Society’ will continue by those who already contribute but in different ways. My local district council already has a central administrator trying to streamline/guide different groups, resources, individual etc. Sadly, groups/people that used to benefit - such as those your son helps (kudos to him, btw) - will probably miss out as attention move to other demos. I’m currently part of a group looking at how free school meals can still be provided in my area. Shouldn’t be a tricky task given the demographics of where I live but it is an important one. I’m also trying to think of ways to keep my mini rugby training sessions in place without breaking any guidelines.....starting to come to the conclusion it is impossible to achieve anything meaning/worthwhile, though, beyond having a small group of 8 year olds randomly running round a rugby pitch.
With regards alternative employment. There is expansion in supermarkets already with 10,000s of new jobs opening up. It’s obvs not ideal but for those already out of a job but there are some limited alternatives. I’m hoping new markets open up for the unemployed. You can already see it in the delivery sector.

Could turn your mini rugby into a mini boot camp; devise exercises that they can do whilst carrying their own ball, slaloming round cones, end with a little kick into a circle of cones or summat (I know they don't kick at that age, but...). Distanced relay races? I'm sure there's lots of collateral online.

That was the sort of thing I was thinking of. Not sure I could keep them entertained for too long, though. That said, I would need to break them down into groups of 5ish so could just run 30min sessions back to back. I’m sure I could keep their attention for 30mins with that sort of stuff rather than the usual 90mins as a full group.

ust got back from a trip to Mum's and back - she wants me to have the car so that I can get there in an emergency whilst she's in isolation; just her and the dog.

Made it feel way more like "goodbye" than "see you 3 months" - gave me a copy of her will, made sure I knew where the safe is, and what the code is; "let it slip" that she's got enough tramadol to last 6 months. She's a social animal, pillar of the community type, who's never home of an evening; and she and I both know that having a 6 month supply means she's got 3 months + a lethal dose; and that it will have taken her both time and pain to build up that stock.

Having a wobble right now.