Team for Italy

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Which Tyler
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Re: Team for Italy

Post by Which Tyler »

Digby wrote:I still like Eddie as a coach, and if he goes are we going to get someone in who looks at the players available and frankly does much different? I'd like to see Eddie progress a little, because without doubt there's much more he could be doing on attack and he's simply choosing not to look at it, or if Eddie is moving on to have some idea of how we set about bringing in a coach who can (a) deliver a well coached side, and normally whilst I don't like the play Eddie does normally coach the side well, and (b) is somewhat more progressive than we've seen of Eddie with England so far.

Otherwise we're just going to pay a lot of money to move Eddie on, possibly to move Eddie's coaches on, and then a lot of money to bring in a new head coach and perhaps some new coaches. And we don't have much in the way of revenue right now so I'd be loathe to spend £0.01
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Agreed.
I don't see anyone who's an improvement over Eddie, and away from the on-pitch performance, he's fulfilling his brief.

I also see what he's doing strategically, and quite honestly, it makes a refreshing change to have a head coach who's actually looking further ahead than the next match of batch of matches.

What Eddie does is he develops a game-plan for the opposition he feels is most dangerous to his team, and relies on 95% of that being good enough in the other matches - it worked for Australia in 03 (targeting NZ), South Africa in 07 (targeting Eng), Japan in 15 (targeting SA) and got us to the final in 19 with arguably 2 of the best displays England have ever produced (before failing horribly in the final).
He sees the first 2 years of a RWC cycle as a time when laws and interpretations change, and by the time the next RWC comes around, rugby is a different sport around the margins. The basics are always the same, but the margins are different. If you spend the first 2 years of a cycle fine-tuning your game plan, then A] you're fighting the last war, B] you'll be constantly tinkering and changing, potentially confusing the players, and C] showing your hand too early.

He (seems to) see the first 2 years as a time to drill the basics - 10-man rugby. Nail the fitness, lineout, maul and the kicking game This should be enough to win against all but the top 2-3 teams in the world, although obviously when it fails, it looks absolutely dire. Once things have settled down in terms of law interpretations and style of play (AKA, "after the lions") then work on the attack, the tackle area, the ruck - the stuff that's constantly changing. Ideally, work on your perfect gameplan in practice, and only show 20% of it in any one game; until less than a year out. Maybe try the whole lot in 1 single game to make sure you can actually put it together.
No point giving your opponents any more time to look at what you're doing than you absolutely have to.

5 years ago he told us all that year 2 of that RWC cycle would be about fitness, and decision making / skills whilst absolutely knackered, and that performances and results would take a hit whilst doing so, but the benefits should be seen 2 years later at the RWC. He then did exactly that, and everyone was shocked because we took a hit to performances and results that he told us to expect - and people called for his head and claimed that he didn't know what he was doing.
This year he's told us that he's working on the basics, and ignoring the attack until after the lions. It looks like he's working on the basics and ignoring the attack until after the lions, and people seem shocked that he's doing exactly that, and are calling for his head.



I don't necessarily like it, but anyone saying that he doesn't have a plan or doesn't know what he's doing (or excessively over-simplify what he's doing - "oh he thinks 8, 9 and 10 have to be hyper-experienced, and that's all he cares about") is plainly not paying attention. There's a difference between not liking the plan, and denying its existence.

I, as most of us, would far rather he came up with 2 plans (say, one for NZ, and one for SA), and put them into practice more often - &/ concentrate on our assets rather than negating our most-dangerous-opponent's - make them worry about us for a change. Of course, I'd also like to see us experiment a little more with the playing pool - especially in those first 2 years of a cycle.
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Re: Team for Italy

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Oakboy wrote:Is Jones mega-mercenary? What I am getting at is will he cling on to screw the RFU for every last contract penny or will he resign with good grace once he realises it's not going to happen for him? I'm inclined to think he is honourable enough to prefer to go before he is pushed.

Let's face it, by any standards he cannot claim to he succeeding in his job if he loses any more games this 6N. If he was to lose a 2nd match he'd have only a 60% success rate. With the standard of our squad that can only mean 'goodbye' for a coach judged purely on results surely?
Meg-mercenary?

Would you?

If you were in your 60s, and had a job worth £400-450k per year, and 2 years left on your contract - would you walk away from that, probably into retirement, for "the greater good" of a country you have no allegiance to, and who wouldn't actually be in a better position without you (in your opinion)
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Re: Team for Italy

Post by Oakboy »

Which Tyler wrote:
Oakboy wrote:Is Jones mega-mercenary? What I am getting at is will he cling on to screw the RFU for every last contract penny or will he resign with good grace once he realises it's not going to happen for him? I'm inclined to think he is honourable enough to prefer to go before he is pushed.

Let's face it, by any standards he cannot claim to he succeeding in his job if he loses any more games this 6N. If he was to lose a 2nd match he'd have only a 60% success rate. With the standard of our squad that can only mean 'goodbye' for a coach judged purely on results surely?
Meg-mercenary?

Would you?

If you were in your 60s, and had a job worth £400-450k per year, and 2 years left on your contract - would you walk away from that, probably into retirement, for "the greater good" of a country you have no allegiance to, and who wouldn't actually be in a better position without you (in your opinion)
I think Jones believes he is doing a good job but is starting to have doubts - did you see his facial expression and body language at pitchside midway through the 2nd half? I really don't care if he demands all his contract money. I was reacting to MB's question of whether the RFU can afford to buy him out.

So far in his career he has usually run out of steam and been replaced. He still might talk a good job but he is 'results or nothing'. In the press today he is quoted as saying, 'I always pick the best 23.' That was in defence of questions about dropping Farrell. You might believe in his chances of success with long-term planning. I don't. To me, that is just spin to try to cover his failings since being so demonstrably out-coached by the SA HC.
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Re: Team for Italy

Post by Dan. Dan. Dan. »

I completely agree with you, and yet, what I think might be becoming harmful is Eddie's stubborn resistance to changing course or any serious self examination.
He is immensely arrogant and as I think I've said before, that's not necessarily a criticism, and might well be a prerequisite to being a top international coach. But over time I imagine it begins to grate on players who don't fit the strict cult of Eddie regime.
In that case players get picked more on whether they are willing to unquestionably follow the Eddie edicts rather than if they can genuinely take England to the next level.
Again, I'm not sure there's anything better out there. Its just very frustrating!
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Re: Team for Italy

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Oakboy wrote:So far in his career he has usually run out of steam and been replaced. He still might talk a good job but he is 'results or nothing'. In the press today he is quoted as saying, 'I always pick the best 23.' That was in defence of questions about dropping Farrell. You might believe in his chances of success with long-term planning. I don't. To me, that is just spin to try to cover his failings since being so demonstrably out-coached by the SA HC.
Yes, he's in a "results or nothing" business; and I'm sure his contract states what results are or are not required, and over what time-frame. Certainly in more detail than a fan on a forum has. And those pre-set expectation sholdn't be affected by knee-jerk reactions to poor performance.

Eddie often says that he always picks the best 23 - what he doesn't say is what he's looking at when doing so. There are only really 2 options for validity, "best 23 to win this individual match" is something that can only ever be applied to a RWC final. "best 23 for now, in order to reach the next RWC final in the best possile shape" is a different story entirey, and his actual job description.

I haven't really made any comment on [my opinion of] the chances of success for his long-term plan - just that it exists. As far as I did venture an opinion, it was that I wasn't a fan of it. I would also say that currently, the plan isn't working - we're not nailing those basics.

It's interesting that you think that saying you're going to do something, and then obviously doing it, is spin applied after the fact - it's almost like you're making your argument to fit your pre-conceived conclusion.
Dan. Dan. Dan. wrote:I completely agree with you, and yet, what I think might be becoming harmful is Eddie's stubborn resistance to changing course or any serious self examination.
He is immensely arrogant and as I think I've said before, that's not necessarily a criticism, and might well be a prerequisite to being a top international coach. But over time I imagine it begins to grate on players who don't fit the strict cult of Eddie regime.
In that case players get picked more on whether they are willing to unquestionably follow the Eddie edicts rather than if they can genuinely take England to the next level.
Again, I'm not sure there's anything better out there. Its just very frustrating!
Agreed, alomst entirely. but...
I think Eddie does a LOT of self-examination, it's just that he's a biased observer, and ends up agreeing with himself :)

I think he's realy quick to make up his mind about players (a good thing) but really slow to change his mind about them when faced with new evidence (a bad thing). He also cares far less about form than any fan (a good thing), to the poiont where it doesn't matter at all (a bad thing).
"Unquestionably follow Eddie edicts" could be applied to every rugby coach, at every level of the game; and I absolutely agree that Eddie takes that too far.

I would be happy to get rid of Eddie for an upgrade. I don't see any upgrades available. Quite honestly, I don't even see any options on the same level, to freshen things up without getting worse.
Last edited by Which Tyler on Wed Feb 10, 2021 9:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Team for Italy

Post by fivepointer »

The plan cannot be to play only sporadically well since the WC, culminating in the worst performance a Jones team has produced.
We've not moved forward at all since losing to SA. That has to be a concern.
Yes, results have largely gone our way but the trend hasnt been upward. We played fitfully during the 6N's, scraped past a France B team in the autumn and were utterly dire against Scotland.
Jones has credit in the bank and can afford the odd loss. He isnt going to get fired if we dont win this 6N's and in truth there isnt a long list of suitable people ready to take up the role.
But we do need to see an uplift in the performances that we've produced in the last year.
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Re: Team for Italy

Post by Dan. Dan. Dan. »

fivepointer wrote: We've not moved forward at all since losing to SA. That has to be a concern.
I don't think Eddie wanted to progress after SA. He wanted to go back to the drawing board. Again, something I'm not wild about, but at the very least he vaguely has a plan!
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Re: Team for Italy

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Dan. Dan. Dan. wrote:
fivepointer wrote: We've not moved forward at all since losing to SA. That has to be a concern.
I don't think Eddie wanted to progress after SA. He wanted to go back to the drawing board. Again, something I'm not wild about, but at the very least he vaguely has a plan!
Of course, there's also the difference between having a plan, and things going according to plan.

If we're currently looking to nail the power and kick aspects, and only going to play the power and kick aspects, then we really ought to be better at both the power game, and the kicking game.
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Re: Team for Italy

Post by Mikey Brown »

Which Tyler wrote:What Eddie does is he develops a game-plan for the opposition he feels is most dangerous to his team
He’s certainly nailing this bit.
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Re: Team for Italy

Post by Mikey Brown »

Guess who?

Genge, LCD, Sinkler
Itoje, Dombrandt
Willis, Curry, Simmonds

Randall, Smith
Slade, O'Connor
May, Watson, Malins
Raggs
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Re: Team for Italy

Post by Raggs »

Mikey Brown wrote:Guess who?

Genge, LCD, Sinkler
Itoje, Dombrandt
Willis, Curry, Simmonds

Randall, Smith
Slade, O'Connor
May, Watson, Malins
Walrus or Clive?
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Re: Team for Italy

Post by Mikey Brown »

Raggs wrote:
Mikey Brown wrote:Guess who?

Genge, LCD, Sinkler
Itoje, Dombrandt
Willis, Curry, Simmonds

Randall, Smith
Slade, O'Connor
May, Watson, Malins
Walrus or Clive?
You got it. Final decision?

“I want Alex Dombrandt in my team for his ball-carrying, handling and try-scoring nous but I’m greedy, so I also want the sheer gas and dynamism of Sam Simmonds at No 8. So I’m asking Dombrandt to put his scrum cap on and move to lock.”
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Re: Team for Italy

Post by Oakboy »

Mikey Brown wrote:Guess who?

Genge, LCD, Sinkler
Itoje, Dombrandt
Willis, Curry, Simmonds

Randall, Smith
Slade, O'Connor
May, Watson, Malins

Dombrandt in the 2nd row? Apart from that I like it. Maybe, Jones will agree with 7 of the names?
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Re: Team for Italy

Post by Danno »

Mikey Brown wrote:
Raggs wrote:
Mikey Brown wrote:Guess who?

Genge, LCD, Sinkler
Itoje, Dombrandt
Willis, Curry, Simmonds

Randall, Smith
Slade, O'Connor
May, Watson, Malins
Walrus or Clive?
You got it. Final decision?

“I want Alex Dombrandt in my team for his ball-carrying, handling and try-scoring nous but I’m greedy, so I also want the sheer gas and dynamism of Sam Simmonds at No 8. So I’m asking Dombrandt to put his scrum cap on and move to lock.”
What in the f$%k?
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Re: Team for Italy

Post by Raggs »

Mikey Brown wrote:
Raggs wrote:
Mikey Brown wrote:Guess who?

Genge, LCD, Sinkler
Itoje, Dombrandt
Willis, Curry, Simmonds

Randall, Smith
Slade, O'Connor
May, Watson, Malins
Walrus or Clive?
You got it. Final decision?

“I want Alex Dombrandt in my team for his ball-carrying, handling and try-scoring nous but I’m greedy, so I also want the sheer gas and dynamism of Sam Simmonds at No 8. So I’m asking Dombrandt to put his scrum cap on and move to lock.”
Going to go with Clive?
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Re: Team for Italy

Post by fivepointer »

From The Mail -
Sir Clive Woodward

Malins; Watson, O’Conor, Slade, May; Smith, Randall; Genge, Cowan-Dickie, Sinckler; Itoje (capt), Dombrandt; J Willis, S Simmonds, T Curry.

Chris Foy

Malins; Odogwu, Slade, Lawrence, May; Ford, Randall; Genge, George, Sinckler; Itoje (capt), Lawes; T Curry, S Simmonds, Earl.

Nik Simon

Daly; Watson, Slade, Lawrence, May; Ford, Randall; Genge, George, Stuart; Itoje (capt), Hill; J Willis, T Curry, Earl.

Will Kelleher

Watson; May, Slade, Lawrence, Odogwu; Ford, Robson; Genge, George, Sinckler; Itoje (capt), Hill; T Curry, Earl, J Willis.


Interesting. None pick Youngs, Farrell or either Vunipola. Itoje a popular pick as skipper. 3 out of 4 go with Randall.
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Re: Team for Italy

Post by jngf »

Mikey Brown wrote:Guess who?

Genge, LCD, Sinkler
Itoje, Dombrandt
Willis, Curry, Simmonds

Randall, Smith
Slade, O'Connor
May, Watson, Malins
Dombrandt at lock looks like SCW to me :) reminds me of Ben Clarke at lock and Chris Robshaw at 8 .....and in a good way Lewis Moody at 6 (just couldn’t resist it ;) )
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Re: Team for Italy

Post by jngf »

fivepointer wrote:From The Mail -
Sir Clive Woodward

Malins; Watson, O’Conor, Slade, May; Smith, Randall; Genge, Cowan-Dickie, Sinckler; Itoje (capt), Dombrandt; J Willis, S Simmonds, T Curry.

Chris Foy

Malins; Odogwu, Slade, Lawrence, May; Ford, Randall; Genge, George, Sinckler; Itoje (capt), Lawes; T Curry, S Simmonds, Earl.

Nik Simon

Daly; Watson, Slade, Lawrence, May; Ford, Randall; Genge, George, Stuart; Itoje (capt), Hill; J Willis, T Curry, Earl.

Will Kelleher

Watson; May, Slade, Lawrence, Odogwu; Ford, Robson; Genge, George, Sinckler; Itoje (capt), Hill; T Curry, Earl, J Willis.


Interesting. None pick Youngs, Farrell or either Vunipola. Itoje a popular pick as skipper. 3 out of 4 go with Randall.
Wow - Chis Foy’s picks even more SCW than SCW himself - pacy back row with average height of 6’ 0.5” :)
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Re: Team for Italy

Post by Digby »

Danno wrote:
Mikey Brown wrote:
Raggs wrote:
Walrus or Clive?
You got it. Final decision?

“I want Alex Dombrandt in my team for his ball-carrying, handling and try-scoring nous but I’m greedy, so I also want the sheer gas and dynamism of Sam Simmonds at No 8. So I’m asking Dombrandt to put his scrum cap on and move to lock.”
What in the f$%k?
Quite, why on earth would you be looking to move Dombrandt to lock, if you wanted a young back row to play there surely you'd look at Hill, and not just because Dombrandt doesn't play lock and looks short and looks something of an ask to get up in the air.

Dombrandt to lock is the sort of thing I'd expect from an excited 10 year old who wants to pick as many carriers as possible because that's what looks good to them on TV. And in part that's fine, I think there's a reasonable case we lacked carriers against Scotland especially with George and Billy having spent lockdown locked in a KFC, but as a whole that's bad even for Clive
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Re: Team for Italy

Post by twitchy »

It has to be restated that the best outcome if we had won the last WC would be that clive wouldn't have to the default pundit anymore.
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Re: Team for Italy

Post by JellyHead »

The team for Scotland was announced on thursday so I assume we'll find out tomorrow.
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Re: Team for Italy

Post by Stom »

JellyHead wrote:The team for Scotland was announced on thursday so I assume we'll find out tomorrow.
I'm expecting minimal changes...

We might see Lawrence sacrificed at the altar of Eddie, while we might see Earl or Willis get a start. And the two props will either be starting or on the bench.

There's also a chance Hill misses out for Lawes.

Don't expect anything else.
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Re: Team for Italy

Post by Puja »

Digby wrote:
Danno wrote:
Mikey Brown wrote:
You got it. Final decision?

“I want Alex Dombrandt in my team for his ball-carrying, handling and try-scoring nous but I’m greedy, so I also want the sheer gas and dynamism of Sam Simmonds at No 8. So I’m asking Dombrandt to put his scrum cap on and move to lock.”
What in the f$%k?
Quite, why on earth would you be looking to move Dombrandt to lock, if you wanted a young back row to play there surely you'd look at Hill, and not just because Dombrandt doesn't play lock and looks short and looks something of an ask to get up in the air.

Dombrandt to lock is the sort of thing I'd expect from an excited 10 year old who wants to pick as many carriers as possible because that's what looks good to them on TV. And in part that's fine, I think there's a reasonable case we lacked carriers against Scotland especially with George and Billy having spent lockdown locked in a KFC, but as a whole that's bad even for Clive
While Dombrandt playing lock for England is traditional Woodward bonkers, I do feel the need to point out that Dombrandt does and has played lock (certainly more recently and regularly than Hill) and was signed for Quins as a lock/back row.

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Re: Team for Italy

Post by Danno »

MB summed it up neatly earlier, saying "Dombrandt wouldn't get off the couch for a cap". Not a chance Eddie will pick him until he actually plays for more than 20mins per match.
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Re: Team for Italy

Post by Stom »

Puja wrote:
Digby wrote:
Danno wrote:
What in the f$%k?
Quite, why on earth would you be looking to move Dombrandt to lock, if you wanted a young back row to play there surely you'd look at Hill, and not just because Dombrandt doesn't play lock and looks short and looks something of an ask to get up in the air.

Dombrandt to lock is the sort of thing I'd expect from an excited 10 year old who wants to pick as many carriers as possible because that's what looks good to them on TV. And in part that's fine, I think there's a reasonable case we lacked carriers against Scotland especially with George and Billy having spent lockdown locked in a KFC, but as a whole that's bad even for Clive
While Dombrandt playing lock for England is traditional Woodward bonkers, I do feel the need to point out that Dombrandt does and has played lock (certainly more recently and regularly than Hill) and was signed for Quins as a lock/back row.

Puja
TBF, he wasn't a pro player when he was playing lock...

He's not played lock for Quins and we're his first pro contract. It's akin to saying Andrew Sheridan could have locked for England.
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