Puja wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 12:09 am
It's appalling. The actions of Hamas were hardly the unprovoked acts of terror on an innocent polity that Israel are trying to portray them as, but they're also so far beyond the pale that no-one in their right mind could possibly support them, cutting them off from just about every bit of international aid or succor. And, in the process of very actively retaliating to Israel's provocations, they have provided every bit of justification that Netanyahu and his cronies could possibly have ever wanted to wipe Palestine entirely from the map. There's no way they can win - the IDF are basically the US Army's A side and the strength of the casus belli and his political position will give Netanyahu the opportunity to level them with fire.
What an awful, awful situation.
Puja
Really stupid by Hamas. But they are not a rational actor. They are terrorists. Apparently Israeli and Allied intelligence corps were deceived into believing that Hamas had become more driven by economic incentives. It was of course just a ruse.
Nothing that I've seen before has changed my viewpoint so suddenly as the images of the massacre of the innocent peace rave partiers and other civilians by Hamas fighters. It's clear that Hamas has a significant amount of support from a part of the Palestinian population, and although the Palestinians have been oppressed, two wrongs do not make a right. And this was worse than wrong. It was horrific.
I'm pretty sure that Israel will exact some terrible vengeance. But to some extent, this time it will be somewhat deserved. If I were an Israeli, I too would probably be experiencing vengeful bloodlust.
Deserved only to the extent that it falls on Hamas themselves.
I would hope that the hypothetical Israeli Zhivago would recognise his bloodlust as the poison that it is (and then get back to campaigning to end the occupation ).
Even if Israel were to be super cautious, ordinary people would suffer. The nature of urban warfare makes it so. But I don’t believe that Israel is worrying too much about the legalities of war right now.
Really stupid by Hamas. But they are not a rational actor. They are terrorists. Apparently Israeli and Allied intelligence corps were deceived into believing that Hamas had become more driven by economic incentives. It was of course just a ruse.
Nothing that I've seen before has changed my viewpoint so suddenly as the images of the massacre of the innocent peace rave partiers and other civilians by Hamas fighters. It's clear that Hamas has a significant amount of support from a part of the Palestinian population, and although the Palestinians have been oppressed, two wrongs do not make a right. And this was worse than wrong. It was horrific.
I'm pretty sure that Israel will exact some terrible vengeance. But to some extent, this time it will be somewhat deserved. If I were an Israeli, I too would probably be experiencing vengeful bloodlust.
Deserved only to the extent that it falls on Hamas themselves.
I would hope that the hypothetical Israeli Zhivago would recognise his bloodlust as the poison that it is (and then get back to campaigning to end the occupation ).
Even if Israel were to be super cautious, ordinary people would suffer. The nature of urban warfare makes it so. But I don’t believe that Israel is worrying too much about the legalities of war right now.
Israel has never shown much interest is the law. Only how far it can stretch the envelope without losing US support. Which is pretty far. I wonder if the US warn them behind the scenes about how far to take it, or do they just leave it to the Israelis' consciences ( ).
Re: gaza conflict
Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2023 11:22 am
by paddy no 11
Israel saying no one will preach to them about morality- defence minister
Son of Mathonwy wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 9:24 pm
Deserved only to the extent that it falls on Hamas themselves.
I would hope that the hypothetical Israeli Zhivago would recognise his bloodlust as the poison that it is (and then get back to campaigning to end the occupation ).
Even if Israel were to be super cautious, ordinary people would suffer. The nature of urban warfare makes it so. But I don’t believe that Israel is worrying too much about the legalities of war right now.
Israel has never shown much interest is the law. Only how far it can stretch the envelope without losing US support. Which is pretty far. I wonder if the US warn them behind the scenes about how far to take it, or do they just leave it to the Israelis' consciences ( ).
I think Biden has his limits (Trump none at all). But Russia is making hay here on US supporting war against the Palestinians so he will be aware of that, but equally aware that Israel will want to defeat Hamas (which is an aim I don't disagree with) and fighting in the urban maze of Gaza where Hamas will fight amongst the civilian population will be hard to achieve without civilian casualties.
Sandydragon wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 8:14 am
Even if Israel were to be super cautious, ordinary people would suffer. The nature of urban warfare makes it so. But I don’t believe that Israel is worrying too much about the legalities of war right now.
Israel has never shown much interest is the law. Only how far it can stretch the envelope without losing US support. Which is pretty far. I wonder if the US warn them behind the scenes about how far to take it, or do they just leave it to the Israelis' consciences ( ).
I think Biden has his limits (Trump none at all). But Russia is making hay here on US supporting war against the Palestinians so he will be aware of that, but equally aware that Israel will want to defeat Hamas (which is an aim I don't disagree with) and fighting in the urban maze of Gaza where Hamas will fight amongst the civilian population will be hard to achieve without civilian casualties.
I don't think Biden has limits. I think he'll look very sad and avuncular and decide that evincing any position or opinion will lose him votes and he cares more about that than he does innocents who are not politically valuable to him.
Sandydragon wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 8:14 am
Even if Israel were to be super cautious, ordinary people would suffer. The nature of urban warfare makes it so. But I don’t believe that Israel is worrying too much about the legalities of war right now.
Israel has never shown much interest is the law. Only how far it can stretch the envelope without losing US support. Which is pretty far. I wonder if the US warn them behind the scenes about how far to take it, or do they just leave it to the Israelis' consciences ( ).
I think Biden has his limits (Trump none at all). But Russia is making hay here on US supporting war against the Palestinians so he will be aware of that, but equally aware that Israel will want to defeat Hamas (which is an aim I don't disagree with) and fighting in the urban maze of Gaza where Hamas will fight amongst the civilian population will be hard to achieve without civilian casualties.
Without massive civilians casualties
Re: gaza conflict
Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2023 4:06 pm
by Son of Mathonwy
I was just thinking - other than the fleeting hope we got with Corbyn - I can't imagine a British PM calling for Israel to free the occupied territories. Or even mentioning it as an idea.
Re: gaza conflict
Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2023 8:28 pm
by Sandydragon
Meanwhile, antisemitism reports have increased three fold in the UK. And that was before Israel started to respond. Pathetic.
Re: gaza conflict
Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2023 10:00 pm
by paddy no 11
Hrw says Israel used white phosphorus in gaza shelling
Re: gaza conflict
Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2023 8:12 am
by Sandydragon
Puja wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 12:09 am
It's appalling. The actions of Hamas were hardly the unprovoked acts of terror on an innocent polity that Israel are trying to portray them as, but they're also so far beyond the pale that no-one in their right mind could possibly support them, cutting them off from just about every bit of international aid or succor. And, in the process of very actively retaliating to Israel's provocations, they have provided every bit of justification that Netanyahu and his cronies could possibly have ever wanted to wipe Palestine entirely from the map. There's no way they can win - the IDF are basically the US Army's A side and the strength of the casus belli and his political position will give Netanyahu the opportunity to level them with fire.
What an awful, awful situation.
Puja
Not necessarily. Iran obviously supports them but so too do many of the gulf states, even if they don’t make a big deal out of it and western nations can thus ignore that support. Those 1500-3000 rockets weren’t home grown.
Israel having peaceful coexistence with Arab states, especially Saudi Arabia is not what Iran wants. The timing of this is far too close to the signing of the agreement between Saudi and Israel.
Re: gaza conflict
Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2023 8:17 am
by Sandydragon
Spare a thought too for the 150 or so hostages who are almost certainly going to be murdered to make a political statement. I don’t think there’s enough Hamas prisoners in Israel to exchange for them and I suspect that Hamas want to maximise the brutal publicity available to them.
Re: gaza conflict
Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2023 8:19 pm
by paddy no 11
Hospital bombed, IDF says its Hamas obvs, Hamas says Israel - 500 civilians massacred
Re: gaza conflict
Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2023 2:58 pm
by Puja
Israel now blacklisting visas for the UN after the Secretary General made an exceptionally carefully worded statement condemning Hamas while also pointing out that it didn't occur in a vacuum and that full-on collective punishment is still a war crime, no matter the provocation. Just awful that any criticism is instantly attacked with "Okay, so you hate Jews and love terrorists then, good to know."
Puja
Re: gaza conflict
Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2023 4:21 pm
by Son of Mathonwy
Puja wrote: ↑Wed Oct 25, 2023 2:58 pm
Israel now blacklisting visas for the UN after the Secretary General made an exceptionally carefully worded statement condemning Hamas while also pointing out that it didn't occur in a vacuum and that full-on collective punishment is still a war crime, no matter the provocation. Just awful that any criticism is instantly attacked with "Okay, so you hate Jews and love terrorists then, good to know."
Puja
It's the standard, no-compromise, psychopathic response to criticism. Maybe we should be pleasantly surprised that Israel didn't explicitly accuse the UN of antisemitism.
I agree, the statement was extremely well worded. But it mentioned 56 years of occupation: such references must be punished.
Great help from the US:
The UN security council has not reached a collective unanimous decision on Israel since January 2009, when resolution 1860 (2009) was adopted. The US has vetoed resolutions on Israel a total of 46 times, including last week.
Puja wrote: ↑Wed Oct 25, 2023 2:58 pm
Israel now blacklisting visas for the UN after the Secretary General made an exceptionally carefully worded statement condemning Hamas while also pointing out that it didn't occur in a vacuum and that full-on collective punishment is still a war crime, no matter the provocation. Just awful that any criticism is instantly attacked with "Okay, so you hate Jews and love terrorists then, good to know."
Puja
It's the standard, no-compromise, psychopathic response to criticism. Maybe we should be pleasantly surprised that Israel didn't explicitly accuse the UN of antisemitism.
I agree, the statement was extremely well worded. But it mentioned 56 years of occupation: such references must be punished.
Great help from the US:
The UN security council has not reached a collective unanimous decision on Israel since January 2009, when resolution 1860 (2009) was adopted. The US has vetoed resolutions on Israel a total of 46 times, including last week.
Puja wrote: ↑Wed Oct 25, 2023 2:58 pm
Israel now blacklisting visas for the UN after the Secretary General made an exceptionally carefully worded statement condemning Hamas while also pointing out that it didn't occur in a vacuum and that full-on collective punishment is still a war crime, no matter the provocation. Just awful that any criticism is instantly attacked with "Okay, so you hate Jews and love terrorists then, good to know."
Puja
It's the standard, no-compromise, psychopathic response to criticism. Maybe we should be pleasantly surprised that Israel didn't explicitly accuse the UN of antisemitism.
I agree, the statement was extremely well worded. But it mentioned 56 years of occupation: such references must be punished.
Great help from the US:
The UN security council has not reached a collective unanimous decision on Israel since January 2009, when resolution 1860 (2009) was adopted. The US has vetoed resolutions on Israel a total of 46 times, including last week.
Well, you know what doesn't make you look like a bunch of bloodthirsty shitheels? Not taking random civilians hostage and not killing them. Especially the part in Italics.
How does killing Shani Louk help?
Re: gaza conflict
Posted: Tue Oct 31, 2023 8:31 am
by Puja
Got told a statistic the other day - last elections in Gaza were 17 years ago. The average age there is 18. So even for people who say, "They voted for Hamas," like it justifies this, the likelihood is that it wasn't this populace
Puja
Re: gaza conflict
Posted: Tue Oct 31, 2023 6:35 pm
by Son of Mathonwy
Puja wrote: ↑Tue Oct 31, 2023 8:31 am
Got told a statistic the other day - last elections in Gaza were 17 years ago. The average age there is 18. So even for people who say, "They voted for Hamas," like it justifies this, the likelihood is that it wasn't this populace
Puja
Hamas has no mandate, there's no reason to think it represents the people of Gaza.
Unfortunately Netanyahu does have a mandate.
Re: gaza conflict
Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2023 12:36 am
by cashead
I mean, saying Netanyahu has a mandate really stretches the definition of that word.
Re: gaza conflict
Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2023 5:15 pm
by Son of Mathonwy
A lot of people in Trafalgar Square. I just got back:
Seriously though, fuck Hamas. Hard to look good when you rock up to a music concert and then just start living out that Frank Reynolds meme from IASIP.
Also fucking lol at that video they put out. "Look at how good we are to the hostages!" Shit off, you absolute fucks.
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