RugbyRebels

p/d wrote: ↑Thu Dec 01, 2022 5:22 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Thu Dec 01, 2022 4:48 pm

p/d wrote: ↑Thu Dec 01, 2022 3:44 pm I reckon after 4 years with any other coach that team of 12 would not be booed off the pitch

not even Gatland?

Not even Gatland.

Just think Jones is out of his depth, like he was at the Queensland Reds.

or not, at the Brumbies or with Japan or when we got to the RWC semis or won a GS or a couple of Aussie tours or in still having the best percentage of wins as an England coach in the pro era. But like many coaches, there is a shelf life with one team and he's at the end of his I'd think.

I think the game has moved beyond Gatland and, even if it hasn’t, we don’t have the players to make Gatball work.

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Thu Dec 01, 2022 6:19 pm I think the game has moved beyond Gatland and, even if it hasn’t, we don’t have the players to make Gatball work.

Sure we do.

9. Wigglesworth
10. Farrell
11. Freeman
12. Steward
13. Tuilagi/Simmonds
14. Cokanasiga
15. Nowell

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Thu Dec 01, 2022 9:37 pm

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Thu Dec 01, 2022 6:19 pm I think the game has moved beyond Gatland and, even if it hasn’t, we don’t have the players to make Gatball work.

Sure we do.

9. Wigglesworth
10. Farrell
11. Freeman
12. Steward
13. Tuilagi/Simmonds
14. Cokanasiga
15. Nowell

#justice4freeman

It’s not a criticism of Freeman. He’s big and fast. Not sure what reason I (or Gatland) put him on the wing and Nowell at fullback other than looking like North and Halfpenny if you squint a bit.

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Thu Dec 01, 2022 6:19 pm I think the game has moved beyond Gatland and, even if it hasn’t, we don’t have the players to make Gatball work.

Not sure it has. The basics haven’t changed. Not saying I want Garland but where are you suggesting the game has ‘moved’ to?

Fittest team on the park (they’re all uber fit now), aggressive line speed in d (they’re all doing it now), prosaic 10 & 15, runner:playmaker balance in the backline, d priority in the back row, propensity to attack from turnover ball and from deep.
I think his stint in NZ and the Lions tour show he’s a busted flush.

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Fri Dec 02, 2022 7:26 am Fittest team on the park (they’re all uber fit now), aggressive line speed in d (they’re all doing it now), prosaic 10 & 15, runner:playmaker balance in the backline, d priority in the back row, propensity to attack from turnover ball and from deep.
I think his stint in NZ and the Lions tour show he’s a busted flush.

The Gatland benefit is that his game plan is simple and generally effective so you can implement it quickly. The downside is that as already said we don't quite have the players to make it happen and if we did it would probably see us sacrifice some our better players do so (Ford and Smith for example would not get many minutes). The major issue would be that Gatland leans heavily on a high quality defence coach, he didn't have one in NZ and see how well that went. There's also as you say Mels the fact his tactics are somewhat known and not exactly innovative.

I'd rather chance it with Eddie then bring in Gats. Agree wholeheartedly on the Lions and NZ debacles as evidence he's yesterday's man.

Fitness is the same with all sports, curling aside. Not sure Gatland ignored line speed with Edwards in tow.
Prosaic 10 & 15. You think France or New Zealand have those, or are you using SA as an example?
You think a Roberts/Davies back line wouldn’t work in today’s game.

I would suggest Wales went backwards in attack after Howley fluttered out and Jones flew in, and Lions was all about defence.

Anyhoo, I think Waldouck should get the gig

Conor O'Shea anyone? As a short term fix it might work. Gatland interested and must be a contender.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugby ... Jones.html

Banquo wrote: ↑Thu Dec 01, 2022 3:36 pm

pandion wrote: ↑Thu Dec 01, 2022 3:35 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Thu Dec 01, 2022 3:08 pm
South Africa
France
New Zealand
Ireland

A Barbarians side, interesting

Interesting way of dodging the question.

I ask who we're playing you name 4 teams but I'm dodging the question? Play with someone else mate

I'd take Gatland over Jones but I want neither. If I was doing the job spec, I'd have under-55 and English as two requirements that any long-term candidate would have to make a strong case to by-pass. The intent should be to employ an innovative thinker, not a has-been whose main claim is to have done it before at international level.

In terms of a caretaker set-up to take us through to the WC, an in-depth knowledge of English players is more important than international expertise. I'd appoint mainly from those currently working for English clubs, leaving room for an assistant specialist or two outside that category.

p/d wrote: ↑Fri Dec 02, 2022 8:12 am Fitness is the same with all sports, curling aside. Not sure Gatland ignored line speed with Edwards in tow.
Prosaic 10 & 15. You think France or New Zealand have those, or are you using SA as an example?
You think a Roberts/Davies back line wouldn’t work in today’s game.

I would suggest Wales went backwards in attack after Howley fluttered out and Jones flew in, and Lions was all about defence.

Anyhoo, I think Waldouck should get the gig

Apols, didn’t read your post properly and responses with the wrong emphasis/angle. I was in the gym (bulking up in the hope I could make Gatland’s backline), in my defence.
To clarify:
He relied on being the fittest but everyone’s equal these days.
He relied on an innovative aggressive d that everyone now employs, to different degrees.
I was listing what he relied on that is sooo last year:
He employed prosaic 10 & 15 combos which, as you’ve alluded up, nobody does any more, even SA.
He prioritised runners in the backline but all the best teams now have a more even mix. A Roberts - Davies Centre partnership would work but I’d argue you’d need top quality playmakers at 10 & 15 which would mean dropping Faz & Steward, which wouldn’t happen, even if we had a Roberts and a Davies, which we don’t.
Backrow needs to have attacking weapons these days and he pretty much always erred on the side of d.
Attacking off turnover ball and deep kicks is now crucial but his teams rarely looked to do it.
Maybe he learned his lessons in NZ and SA but it’d be one hell of a gamble… unless the RFU think we’re on for a repeat of 2015 and want a close as possible guarantee of making the knockouts and maybe lucking into a final.

Oakboy wrote: ↑Fri Dec 02, 2022 8:39 am I''d have under-55 and English… an innovative thinker, not a has-been whose main claim is to have done it before at international level.

Who is this person?

pandion wrote: ↑Fri Dec 02, 2022 8:36 am

Banquo wrote: ↑Thu Dec 01, 2022 3:36 pm

pandion wrote: ↑Thu Dec 01, 2022 3:35 pm

A Barbarians side, interesting

Interesting way of dodging the question.

I ask who we're playing you name 4 teams but I'm dodging the question? Play with someone else mate

OK- South Africa. Thought I was being reasonable given your original assertion that we could field a team that you would expect to beat each of France, SA, NZ, and just added in Ireland....and if you want to name 4 teams, go ahead.

p/d wrote: ↑Fri Dec 02, 2022 8:12 am Fitness is the same with all sports, curling aside. Not sure Gatland ignored line speed with Edwards in tow.
Prosaic 10 & 15. You think France or New Zealand have those, or are you using SA as an example?
You think a Roberts/Davies back line wouldn’t work in today’s game.

I would suggest Wales went backwards in attack after Howley fluttered out and Jones flew in, and Lions was all about defence.

Anyhoo, I think Waldouck should get the gig

Gatland got them fit, built up their line speed and got the best from them. He implemented very pragmatic tactics, but his tactics did not really move on. interesting comment, and I don't mean this negatively, from Warburton to Gatland....'you always emphasised doing a lot of stuff that didn't require talent'. Very pragmatic coach, but if you want a team to play with style, he's probably not your man.

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Fri Dec 02, 2022 8:56 am

Oakboy wrote: ↑Fri Dec 02, 2022 8:39 am I''d have under-55 and English… an innovative thinker, not a has-been whose main claim is to have done it before at international level.

Who is this person?

Skivington? Or Borthwick? If we're talking caretaker options, I'd prefer we have someone combine club and country and do two jobs at once than I would put in Conor O'Shea.

Puja

Puja wrote: ↑Fri Dec 02, 2022 9:06 am

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Fri Dec 02, 2022 8:56 am

Oakboy wrote: ↑Fri Dec 02, 2022 8:39 am I''d have under-55 and English… an innovative thinker, not a has-been whose main claim is to have done it before at international level.

Who is this person?

Skivington? Or Borthwick? If we're talking caretaker options, I'd prefer we have someone combine club and country and do two jobs at once than I would put in Conor O'Shea.

Puja

Not convinced about innovative thinker in Borthwick's case tbh, though he does do the fine details stuff with the pack.

Puja wrote: ↑Fri Dec 02, 2022 9:06 am

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Fri Dec 02, 2022 8:56 am

Oakboy wrote: ↑Fri Dec 02, 2022 8:39 am I''d have under-55 and English… an innovative thinker, not a has-been whose main claim is to have done it before at international level.

Who is this person?

Skivington? Or Borthwick? If we're talking caretaker options, I'd prefer we have someone combine club and country and do two jobs at once than I would put in Conor O'Shea.

Puja

How are they innovative, unless you luuurve a rolling maul?
I’d go for Sanderson if we want innovative but his innovation seems to be mostly off the pitch.

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Fri Dec 02, 2022 9:28 am

Puja wrote: ↑Fri Dec 02, 2022 9:06 am

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Fri Dec 02, 2022 8:56 am

Who is this person?

Skivington? Or Borthwick? If we're talking caretaker options, I'd prefer we have someone combine club and country and do two jobs at once than I would put in Conor O'Shea.

Puja

How are they innovative, unless you luuurve a rolling maul?
I’d go for Sanderson if we want innovative but his innovation seems to be mostly off the pitch.

Skivington has done a bit more with Glaws than that tbf. But options are limited- there are plenty of innovative young ish specialist coaches out there, but not so much head coaches. And I do think we need an actual coach, rather than a DOR type.

I guess I’m struggling with the word innovative here. Jones has tried a lot of different things in his tenure, and it feels like a long time ago he was just focussed on solid set piece, ‘traditional’ English strengths etc. (Obviously many of us complained about that at the time too)

What are people meaning by being tactically innovative? Is this pod system we’re ‘saving’ innovative? Does it need more air time or is there actually something to the Squidge suggestion that merely showing that hand vs NZ meant it was nullified by SA?

Naming individuals is always going to be difficult for us - relying on 3rd-hand reports via press or punditry usually. I'd get a consensus of club opinion for the caretaker role, stressing the inspiration + innovation requirement. I see 'detail merchant' as an assistant's role and would not tend towards Borthwick in charge.

My overall concern is that there is no evidence that Jones has got the best out of players, individually and collectively in the last three years. He has made decisions on his requirements, understandably but disastrously. That means players failing by his rules but not necessarily failing as effective potential internationals. Now, the last thing we want, IMO, is another international has-been, either temporarily in the caretaker role or long-term.

I don't care if we lose to better teams if we are trying things and performing to the best of our collective ability. Losing, while playing crap rugby with players constantly under-performing and with the team less than the sum of its parts is the issue.

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Fri Dec 02, 2022 10:40 am I guess I’m struggling with the word innovative here. Jones has tried a lot of different things in his tenure, and it feels like a long time ago he was just focussed on solid set piece, ‘traditional’ English strengths etc. (Obviously many of us complained about that at the time too)

What are people meaning by being tactically innovative? Is this pod system we’re ‘saving’ innovative? Does it need more air time or is there actually something to the Squidge suggestion that merely showing that hand vs SA meant it was nullified by SA?

Jones's ideas tend more to desperate than innovative. Nothing in the last three years needs considering.

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Fri Dec 02, 2022 10:40 am I guess I’m struggling with the word innovative here. Jones has tried a lot of different things in his tenure, and it feels like a long time ago he was just focussed on solid set piece, ‘traditional’ English strengths etc. (Obviously many of us complained about that at the time too)

What are people meaning by being tactically innovative? Is this pod system we’re ‘saving’ innovative? Does it need more air time or is there actually something to the Squidge suggestion that merely showing that hand vs SA meant it was nullified by SA?

Good question- innovative covers a multitude of things, from small tactical things (eg the kind of stuff Schmidt does....a recent example being Scott Barrett deliberately diving between tacklers just to get a few yards over the tackle line, to the gain line say; or tricky line out congas), to more major tactical stuff, like going away from rigid pods, or allowing players like Michael Hooper to wander about looking for a turnover opportunity, or sticking Croft/Simmonds out on the wing, or things like the 'Queensland defence' from lineout, or having 4 in the backfield or strategic stuff like playing three playmakers, or none, or picking four jumpers, or deciding to never kick the ball (almost like Chiefs did when Baxter started, non stop recycling).
Obviously that list isn't innovative now (and probably in the wrong 'categories'), as its been done but you get the gist. I want a head coach to at least look at the small technical improvements continually, and to be right on top of strategy and the big tactics that support that. Its a complex game, so always opportunity to look at new stuff (eg Eddie's three centre approach).

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Fri Dec 02, 2022 9:28 am

Puja wrote: ↑Fri Dec 02, 2022 9:06 am

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Fri Dec 02, 2022 8:56 am

Who is this person?

Skivington? Or Borthwick? If we're talking caretaker options, I'd prefer we have someone combine club and country and do two jobs at once than I would put in Conor O'Shea.

Puja

How are they innovative, unless you luuurve a rolling maul?
I’d go for Sanderson if we want innovative but his innovation seems to be mostly off the pitch.

I mean, I do luuurve a rolling maul (and let's not knock having a competent lineout and maul until we've tried it!), but I would say both of them have shown good form in identifying ways to enhance their strengths and attack opposition weaknesses and make the most of what they have. It's not innovation in terms of reinventing and redefining the way rugby is played, but they are making plans which are getting the best out of two squads which are of limited quality. Frankly, I think I'd prefer that kind of innovation right about now, especially if it comes with a side-order of Sinfield's defence and Walter's fitness.

Puja